Day 3 Observations from Reiss

[RelocatedPatFan]

Why would that have anything to do with Edelman making the cut?

The obvious line of thinking would be that Edleman is more suited as a slot receiver than anything else and we don't seem to really have a Welker backup other than Edleman for that role (which is part of the reason he doesn't see too many offensive reps).

 

[DaBruinz]

Agreed and the numbers tell us that he is on the bubble.

Everytime hes in with the regular offense he doesn't make plays. Hes not a DB. He finished 42nd in KR return yardage and for players who had 28 returns or more was #17 in yardage and only took one for longer than 20 yards and had 3 fumbles.

Sorry folks. I like JE but with the depth they have at WR and DB, hes in for a fight to save his job.

I'm sorry, but you just cannot base Edeleman's value as a KR or PR against other returners in the league. KR and PR has as much to do with the blocking by the people in front of you as it does with the returner himself except in the very rare cases like Hester.

As for the numbers you are throwing up, it would really help others for you to be a bit more descriptive because your mish mash makes it sound like Edelman had 28 Kick Returns, which he didn't.

Edelman's numbers break down like this:

Kick returns: 12
Total Kick Return Yardage: 284
Yards per return: 23.7 (led the Pats).

Punt Returns: 28
Fair Catches: 7
Total Punt Return Yards: 296
Yards per Return: 10.6

Did you stop to think that maybe the changes on Special Teams due to injuries had a drastic affect on Edelman's performance? I did. And it was noticeable during the season that the blocking on punt returns wasn't nearly as good.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm sorry, but you just cannot base Edeleman's value as a KR or PR against other returners in the league. KR and PR has as much to do with the blocking by the people in front of you as it does with the returner himself except in the very rare cases like Hester.

So are you saying he is a product of the system and his numbers to you are good or our KR and PR blocking stink and his sucess his via his own efforts?

As for the numbers you are throwing up, it would really help others for you to be a bit more descriptive because your mish mash makes it sound like Edelman had 28 Kick Returns, which he didn't.

Edelman's numbers break down like this:

Kick returns: 12
Total Kick Return Yardage: 284
Yards per return: 23.7 (led the Pats).

Punt Returns: 28
Fair Catches: 7
Total Punt Return Yards: 296
Yards per Return: 10.6

Did you stop to think that maybe the changes on Special Teams due to injuries had a drastic affect on Edelman's performance? I did. And it was noticeable during the season that the blocking on punt returns wasn't nearly as good.

Lets get back to the big picture which is my original point. JE is on the bubble because there are 6 receivers better than him, several DBs better than him and he is a middle of the road KR and PR guy and there is an opportunity for an upgrade. I've looked at the numbers and nothing jumps out to me. 3 fumbles certainly does not help.

 

[Reckedtrek]

Maybe a future nickname? Dont'a "the Abomination" Hightower kind of has a ring to it, no?

I came up with Bubba or Moses... both from Moses Hightower in "Police Academy", played by Bubba Smith.

 

[Tunescribe]

JE is on the bubble because there are 6 receivers better than him

But he's a slot specialist, so that works in his favor.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I try and read them all but they are at times either at odds with each other or saw things differently or didn't all see the same thing or all focused on one or two things...

I really miss Mrs. B. She was a just the facts mam set of eyes on the practice field who didn't miss much and didn't bring a lot of preconceived notions to the mix.

Where is Mrs B ?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I love that Ihedigbo is already pretending to be injured. That is commitment to the craft.

Clearly, PJ is in regular season form already!

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I really miss Mrs. B. She was a just the facts mam set of eyes on the practice field who didn't miss much and didn't bring a lot of preconceived notions to the mix.

Karen was at Gillette Friday. I vaguely remember her saying something here at Patsfans about no longer needing to do reports, podcasts, whatever because so many others were doing them. She always had a fixation on some of the young boy rooks named Ventrone.

 

[Sciz]

he is a middle of the road KR and PR guy.

There's a pretty reasonable argument for Edelman being the best punt returner in Patriots history. He has the career and single-season PR average marks in franchise history, easily leads the Patriots in TDs/return, and is one TD away from the franchise record for career punt return TDs, even though he has 55 returns and the two guys tied at 3 have 252 and 206.

I've also read that he looks very good so far in camp as a receiver. Don't write off there either.

 

[RobertWeathers]

But he's a slot specialist, so that works in his favor.

Gaffney and AH your backup slot guys to WW and would play before JE.

 

[RobertWeathers]

There's a pretty reasonable argument for Edelman being the best punt returner in Patriots history. He has the career and single-season PR average marks in franchise history, easily leads the Patriots in TDs/return, and is one TD away from the franchise record for career punt return TDs, even though he has 55 returns and the two guys tied at 3 have 252 and 206..

He ranks well in Patriot history but not compared to the rest of the league in 2011. I might pick a few guys ahead of him but that's not what I'm arguing.

I've also read that he looks very good so far in camp as a receiver. Don't write off there either.

That seems to have been the book on him these past couple of seasons. Looks good in camp. Looks good in practice. Doesn't translate to producing in the passing game. If the guy produced like he did in 2009 and caught 40 or so balls a year there would be no question that he needs to stay on this team.

Hobbs was an outstanding KR but because of his contract situation and his average play at DB, BB dumped him to Philly for a 5th rounder. My point is that it doesn't matter how good of a KR/PR the guy is. It's how good he is at other positions as well.

 

[patfanken]

So are you saying he is a product of the system and his numbers to you are good or our KR and PR blocking stink and his sucess his via his own efforts?



Lets get back to the big picture which is my original point. JE is on the bubble because there are 6 receivers better than him, several DBs better than him and he is a middle of the road KR and PR guy and there is an opportunity for an upgrade. I've looked at the numbers and nothing jumps out to me. 3 fumbles certainly does not help.

There is going to be a point in time during this season where you are going to make a post in which you will admit that you are wrong about Julian Edelman. The recent comments about how good he is looking as a receiver are just the first step to your reeducation.

As to how he does as punt returner, you have to sometimes let your eyes overcome your reliance on stats. I can't recall a single punt return Edelman made that he didn't make at LEAST one man miss him. I can recall one punt where he made 3 men miss at the point where he caught the ball. The net result was about a 5 yd return, but you have to ask the question why were there 3 men down the field ready to tackle him as soon as he caught the ball.

There's a reason BB signed a LOT of guys in FA who have had a lot of success on special teams, and they aren't all coverage players. The Pats did a very poor job in blocking on their return teams, and BB responded to that hole this off season. It would be a mistake to look at Edelman's average numbers as a punt returner as being his fault alone.

Edelman had the 2nd best production of a rookie WR in the BB era. There is a reason why his numbers are so bad over the last 2 years. You know HOFer Steve Young never threw for more than 1000 yds in his first 4 years in SF. I guess that meant he sucked, right?. Oh yeah, there was a reason for his poor production. He was BACKING UP another HOFer for those years. He didn't have the OPPORTUNITY to get significant snaps. What a coincidence. And Young had more chances for meaningful snaps in those 4 years than Edelman had the last 2.

You and a lot of other folks here may be surprised to find that Edelman is a good NFL slot receiver, but I won't be.

 

[RobertWeathers]

There is going to be a point in time during this season where you are going to make a post in which you will admit that you are wrong about Julian Edelman. The recent comments about how good he is looking as a receiver are just the first step to your reeducation..

I look forward to being wrong and re-educated but it seems to me he has difficulty being in the right place at the right time and catching the football.

As to how he does as punt returner, you have to sometimes let your eyes overcome your reliance on stats. I can't recall a single punt return Edelman made that he didn't make at LEAST one man miss him. I can recall one punt where he made 3 men miss at the point where he caught the ball. The net result was about a 5 yd return, but you have to ask the question why were there 3 men down the field ready to tackle him as soon as he caught the ball....

I agree that Edelman is a decent returner and has good feet. I just don't think hes anything special.

There's a reason BB signed a LOT of guys in FA who have had a lot of success on special teams, and they aren't all coverage players. The Pats did a very poor job in blocking on their return teams, and BB responded to that hole this off season. It would be a mistake to look at Edelman's average numbers as a punt returner as being his fault alone...

There is also a reason he signed Stallworth & Gaffney too. BB does not have the confidence in JE to be a reliable #4 WR in this offense who can catch 40-50 balls.

Edelman had the 2nd best production of a rookie WR in the BB era. There is a reason why his numbers are so bad over the last 2 years. You know HOFer Steve Young never threw for more than 1000 yds in his first 4 years in SF. I guess that meant he sucked, right?. Oh yeah, there was a reason for his poor production. He was BACKING UP another HOFer for those years. He didn't have the OPPORTUNITY to get significant snaps. What a coincidence. And Young had more chances for meaningful snaps in those 4 years than Edelman had the last 2.

This is a terrible analogy. QB is the only position of it's like on the field. WRs have 3-4 other positions for JE to go for an accel and he hasn't. His 37 catches were 2 full seasons ago.

You and a lot of other folks here may be surprised to find that Edelman is a good NFL slot receiver, but I won't be.

There is a good chance that the child has grown and the dream is gone....

 

[shmessy]

Maybe a future nickname? Dont'a "the Abomination" Hightower kind of has a ring to it, no?

I prefer "Allalongtha" better - - but I'm a geezer/Dylan fan.

 

[shmessy]

That seems to have been the book on him these past couple of seasons. Looks good in camp. Looks good in practice. Doesn't translate to producing in the passing game. If the guy produced like he did in 2009 and caught 40 or so balls a year there would be no question that he needs to stay on this team.

Hmmmmmm.......Let's see........I wonder what happened in 2009??????

Wes Welker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Welker was sidelined in Weeks 2 and 3 (against the New York Jets and Atlanta Falcons, respectively) with a knee injury; rookie wide receiver Julian Edelman took his place in the lineup.........In a Week 17 loss to the Houston Texans, Welker suffered a knee injury in the first quarter while running upfield after his only reception of the game. He tore his MCL and ACL in his left knee and was placed on injured reserve on January 6, 2010."

Julian Edelman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Edelman sat out the Patriots' Week 1 game against the Buffalo Bills with an ankle injury, but was activated for, and made his first career start in, the Patriots' 16–9 loss in Week 2 against the New York Jets, which was also the first game Wes Welker has missed since Welker became a Patriot in 2007. Edelman led all receivers with eight receptions for 98 yards, and added 38 yards on two kickoff returns and 2 yards on a punt return, for a total of 138 all-purpose yards.
Edelman broke his arm in the Patriots' 59–0 rout of the Tennessee Titans, and did not accompany the Patriots on their trip to London to play the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. At the time of his injury, Edelman was leading all rookies with 21 receptions.......
When Welker was sidelined for the season after tearing his ACL and MCL against the Houston Texans, Edelman was once again called on to fill Welker's role; Edelman caught 10 of the 15 passes thrown to him for 103 yards, the first 100-yard game of his NFL career. He finished the regular season with 37 receptions for 359 yards and one touchdown.

In the Patriots' Wild Card playoff loss to the Baltimore Ravens, Edelman caught six passes from Brady for 44 yards, including both of the Patriots' touchdowns. Edelman became the first rookie to score two receiving touchdowns in one postseason game since David Sloan did so for the Detroit Lions in the 1995–96 season."

___________________

Now, let's see if you can connect the dots here about what has been standing in Edelman's way.

Need there be anymore explanation?

 

[jah]

Edelman seriously steps it up whenever Welker is out. I think that's why he sticks.

 

[Dingleberry]

Well put, Shmessy

Anyone who uses stats to discount Edelman is off base.

While I like Gaffney, he is NOT a better slot backup option than Edelman. When Edelman had to fill in for Welker, he got the job done as a rookie. With Welker healthy, there has been no need for him and no opportunity.

Edelman is Welker insurance until/if Ebery develops into the slot receiver they think he can be.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well put, Shmessy

Anyone who uses stats to discount Edelman is off base.

While I like Gaffney, he is NOT a better slot backup option than Edelman. When Edelman had to fill in for Welker, he got the job done as a rookie. With Welker healthy, there has been no need for him and no opportunity.

Edelman is Welker insurance until/if Ebery develops into the slot receiver they think he can be.

Generally speaking, there are two slot positions available on the field for any team that wishes to go that way. Edelman hasn't been good enough to get much time as either an outside receiver or one of two potential slot receivers, barring injury to Welker. Lord knows that Robert is probably not 100% correct, but he's probably not 100% wrong, either.

 

[Dingleberry]

Generally speaking, there are two slot positions available on the field for any team that wishes to go that way. Edelman hasn't been good enough to get much time as either an outside receiver or one of two potential slot receivers, barring injury to Welker. Lord knows that Robert is probably not 100% correct, but he's probably not 100% wrong, either.

With the 2 TE's, the Patriots are not a heavy 2 slot offense. Well, aside from Aaron Hernandez in the slot!

Edelman is the best option on the roster to replace Welker if he goes down. Because he is a pretty good punt returner, that makes him a valuable player on the roster.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Maybe a future nickname? Dont'a "the Abomination" Hightower kind of has a ring to it, no?

I'm stuck on the Faulkner thing and want him to be "Reverend" Hightower... Maybe they could catch an opposing runningback audibly praying before the hit or something... gotta be some way to make it work...

N/m, "The Abomination" has way more of a ring to it.