Dave Thomas

[Patriot_in_NY]

How are you judging that he is smarter?
How are you judging his 'better hands and blocking'. He hasn't played hardly at all yet, I dont think there is any way you can say a guy you have barely seen is better than a guy who may be becoming one of the top TEs in the game.

Apparently, you really like the guy, but I just don't know where can draw these judgments from.

Again if I say Wesley Britt is smarter and has a better first step than Mankins, and I think he has a higher upside and will supplant him, I have exactly as muich justification of that as your argument has.

Adding in salary cap has absolutely nothing to do with the argument of who is a better player, and shows you know you have a weak argument. (Not a slam you really have a terribly weak argument because the guy just hasnt played and you are trying to argue he is better than a guy who is pro-bowl caliber)

No, NOT BETTER. That's NOT my argument at all.

As I've already stated my comment was only that Thomas has a big upside... It's my opinion, based on his small body of work, his toughness, his soft hands on the few catches he has made. It's an OPINION, based partially on what I've seen and my impression. He may show something totally different this week that will make me say "boy, he really sucks".

You guys are also trying to paint that I think that Watson is inferior. I never said that. I think he is tremendous. Last year, he dropped a lot of balls, and he fumbled a lot. That is a tremendous area of concern for me. This year, he seems alot better and that a good thing, but then again, 3 of his 9 catches were in the endzone, so it's hard to say what what have happened if someone put a hat on him. Once he gets out in space we'll have a better idea.

The overall point, I was trying (without success I guess), is that with Watson, we pretty much know what we are gonna get. He's not getting faster, he's not getting more athletic (he's already off the chart), ect.... He certainly could get better at not dropping passes and not fumbling as much as last year. He's a great TE, but we pretty much know what what he is at this point.

As for Thomas, we barely know what he is at this point. He's made a few very tough catches, seems to be okay blocking (at least for the minimal time he's been on the field, he seems a little more adept then another player that may have similar "time in game"). It's hard to compare a 2 year guy and a 4 year guy. They are at different level of game savvy and knowledge. For a two year guy that has little playing time, he sure seems to have a solid grasp of the scheme's

As others have said, there is an appearance that he has great intangibles and since we have barely seen what he can do, he has a huge upside. We don't know what his ceiling is. BB thinks highly of him.

I think we will see much more of him this year, and I think he will impress us. I could be wrong.................. Whatever the case, it doesn't take ANYTHING away from Watson.

 

[FrontSeven]

I love David Thomas and think he has a solid future here. But will he be ahead of Watson before year's end? Not a chance. Not a snowball's chance of surviving a Fourth of July cookout.

Dave Thomas has a good situation here because Kyle Brady is also ahead of him and he has plenty of opportunity to learn without being the man to stop a Dwight Freeney from creaming Brady.

I have no doubt that Thomas is going to be a very good TE, but I would not even dream of starting him with the other two guys around.

 

[PatsFan37]

I pretty much disagree with everything in here.
Particualrly the implicaiton that Thomas has more potential because he has done nothing and Watson failed. WATSON HAD AN EXCELLENT YEAR LAST YEAR.
Jeez, Andy, if you can't argue with facts, you should definitely argue with capital letters. As Brady's go-to target with no talented receivers, Watson should have caught a lot of passes. He did. He also dropped a lot. He also fumbled three times. He did not have an excellent year. I know you don't like moderate opinions, but many of your posts are an exercise in hyperbole.
If Thomas EVER has a season that good I would be thrilled. So would I, right now, Thomas only represents potential. (And Im not knocking Thomas) No, you knock anyone who disagrees with you.

Also the statement that Watson has struggled picking up coverages. Are you out of your mind??????? Please detail for me how you have manage to view coaches film of all games, how you were able to determine the play call, Watson's responsibility on each play, what the coverage was, what the play determined his reaction to the coverage should be, and where you saw Watson not follow what the playbook and play call says he should do.
Heaven forbid I should be allowed an opinion when you have so many.

You can offer the opinion that Watson had an excellent year but if I say he struggles picking up coverages you want me to back it up with sources we know aren't obtainable. You're such a reasonable fellow.

Fact: Brady has taken Watson aside on at least one occasion, yelling at him at times, to straighten out where he has lined up.

Fact: One at least one specific play, announcers have showed in TV replay how Watson ran one way and Brady threw where he wasn't. They showed how Watson should have reacted to the coverage and did not. I remember this. I don't have coaches film or the playbook. Do you?

Fact: In Box's breakdowns last year, he praised Thomas' blocking and criticized Watson's. So did the announcers. Watson's blocking appears to be better this year, from what I can see. We haven't seen much of Thomas, yet.

Come on. I understand you like Thomas and are trying to make a case, but you absolutely waste everyones time when you MAKE UP an argument to support what you want to be true and HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO WAY TO BE ABLE TO KNOW WHAT YOU JUST STATED AS FACT. Capitals, capitals, CAPITALS. That's how to argue. BTW, messageboards are inherently a waste of time, a fun waste of time. So don't be so serious.

If you would like to truly discuss the reasons you feel a guy who has played about the equivalent of 2 games of plays that a starting TE would play is better than the guy who was the leading receiver on the team last year, Didn't say he was better. Said that if he takes advantages of his opportunities as he did in that one game then he could challenge Watson for catches per game by year's end. I'm trying to understand how such a reasonable statement drew such ire.

and who has participated in more plays than any other skill position guy this year, AND IS THE GUY BB CHOOSES TO PUT ON THE FIELD, and want to base it on something you are capable of judging, Im all ears. No you're not. You're all capitals.

He put Watson on the field because of his experience and because Thomas had a broken foot for the ENTIRE offseason. (I know you'll appreciate the emphasis) We don't know what would have happened otherwise, or what will happen in the future as Thomas continues to recover and practice.

If you want to make up stuff that you have no way of knowing (I'm afraid to look back, please tell me you werent the guy who said Thomas was smarter) don't waste my time.

Sorry to have wasted your time, I'm sure you never make up anything at all. I hoping someone, somewhere on this messageboard enjoyed my post as much as I enjoyed writing it.

 

[Brady to Brown]

The original poster is just doing what NFL evaluators do all the time: attempting to project a player's value into the future, despite limited evidence. Obviously we will know when we know, but it's fun and wholly in the spirit of the NFL to make these predictions, which may seem wild to the more cautious among us.

Its nice to discuss the game again.

 

[captain stone]

Sorry to have wasted your time, I'm sure you never make up anything at all. I hoping someone, somewhere on this messageboard enjoyed my post as much as I enjoyed writing it.

I did.

My 2 cents:

Except for an early case of the yips vs. the Rats, Watson has caught everything thrown to him. Some of those catches weren't easy, either.

Watson's blocking has also improved. I can say this with relative certitude because whenever he goes in motion, I continue to watch him, because a running play usually follows. His Wham blocking has definitely been more effective this season.

Having said all that, I still believe that, in time, David Thomas can become a more reliable, consistant target, esp. when running the seam patterns that too often resulted in a Ben Watson fumble. And Thomas' blocking is already better than Watson's at similar points in their careers.

P.S.: I would have drafted LB Karlos Dansby at #32 in 2004, and then hope that Watson would fall to #63; or, if something need to be done to ensure his selection, then trade 63 and #95 to move up in the 2nd round, similar to the Chad Jackson trade last year.

 

[spacecrime]

(sorry, quote thingie didn't work)PatsFan37 to Andy : So don't be so serious.

Weak. When you say something, people assume you meant what you said, and respond accordingly. If you were only joking about Thomas being better than Watson, you could save everyone a lot of time and aggravation by saying so up front.

"Don't take this seriously, because I'm not serious: Thomas is better than Watson." Then no one would respond seriously.

 

[njpatsfan]

Agreed, I think he has far more upside. By the end of this year, Thomas will show his worth and will move up the depth chart. Is he better then Watson? Remains to be seen, but when Watson becomes a FA, he might be too high to keep.

You don't get it. Thomas was supposed to be Welker before we got Welker. He's not a Watson replacement.

If you think that Thomas can do the things that Watson can do, you are seriously deluded.

R

 

[PatsFan37]

"Don't take this seriously, because I'm not serious: Thomas is better than Watson." Then no one would respond seriously.

There's a difference between seriously and so seriously.

So tell me, did anyone in this thread actually say Thomas is better than Watson? I doubt it. Thomas has barely played. That's why that quote thingie's important.

 

[PonyExpress]

There's a difference between seriously and so seriously.

So tell me, did anyone in this thread actually say Thomas is better than Watson? I doubt it. Thomas has barely played. That's why that quote thingie's important.

I think Thomas is better than Watson, and I've been saying it since last season. Just to go on record early before the stampede.

 

[Ring 6]

There's a difference between seriously and so seriously.

So tell me, did anyone in this thread actually say Thomas is better than Watson? I doubt it. Thomas has barely played. That's why that quote thingie's important.

Yes, thats the point. The thread started by saying Thomas will supass Watson.

And it IS a slam on Watson to say that a guy who has done next to nothing is going to take his job away.
I'm fine with high hopes for Thomas. But there is no proof on the field yet that Thomas can even be a good TE. He hasn't proven yet that he could be a starter, much less an average starter. Saying "I think he will take Watson's job away" is saying "It wouldn't take much to replace Watson."

 

[shmessy]

There's a difference between seriously and so seriously.

So tell me, did anyone in this thread actually say Thomas is better than Watson? I doubt it.

Dude, all you have to do is point and click. It's very easy:

The 3rd post in this thread. Written by the thread starter.

 

[shmessy]

.....and then the post after that.

Really, Patsfan37, all it takes is a little effort before you make a statement. Try to think before typing, it would save everyone alot of time.

 

[sebman2112]

Damn, I was just gonna say that! I've often wondered if Watson's high intellect might be actually hurting him, too much thinking not just reacting. I've gotten the feeling Brady will have the better hands

Last night a buddy of mine & I were actually feeling sorry for Buffalo, in spite of the fact my ex-mother in law lives there, UGH! Here we are arguing about great player "A" is better than great player "B". As I said to my wife, we were penalized a first round draft pick so now we only have one like everyone else!

It's been said that having to much intellect can actually harm you're play on the field. When a player is highly intelligent he can sometimes question the teachings of coaches and might not be willing to put his physical health out on the line. Drew Bledsoe is one example of a player who's intellect sometimes got in the way of his physical ability. Drew sometimes wouldn't listen to coaches because he thought what they were asking of him wasn't likely to work or was potentially harmful.

I'm an ILB and while I do have above average intellect (134-141 IQ) my intellectual type is that of a problem solver (analytical detective). I've personally found this to be a blessing when preparing for opponents.

 

[PatsFan37]

Yes, thats the point. The thread started by saying Thomas will surpass Watson. Absolutely right and as Shmessy pointed out in two posts, I was a lazy dude and should have pointed and clicked.

And it IS a slam on Watson to say that a guy who has done next to nothing is going to take his job away.
I'm fine with high hopes for Thomas. But there is no proof on the field yet that Thomas can even be a good TE. He hasn't proven yet that he could be a starter, much less an average starter. Saying "I think he will take Watson's job away" is saying "It wouldn't take much to replace Watson."

If Watson was an unequivocal success, I'm not sure anyone would be writing in this thread. More than anything else, the knock on Watson is his own performance, which was decent last year, but less than I expected, given his intelligence and athletic gifts. This is another year, he is looking much better, so we'll see.

What attracts me to Thomas, in addition to that one game, is his grace running routes and catching with his hands in stride. In contrast, though Watson can run like the wind and he has made some difficult catches, he doesn't makes a catch look easy. In limited exposure, Thomas seems to have that knack.

Now can Thomas do it regularly? At some point we'll find out and if he continues to show that grace as a receiver, then yes, by year end he could be challenging Watson for catches per game.

 

[captain stone]

You don't get it. Thomas was supposed to be Welker before we got Welker. He's not a Watson replacement.

If you think that Thomas can do the things that Watson can do, you are seriously deluded.

R

I don't think that Dave Thomas was supposed to be our version of Wes Welker. They have different body-types, skill-sets and job descriptions. The only commonality is that they are both eligible receivers.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

You don't get it. Thomas was supposed to be Welker before we got Welker. He's not a Watson replacement.

If you think that Thomas can do the things that Watson can do, you are seriously deluded.

R

If he can catch the ball in traffic and hold onto it when someone puts a hat on him then it's a step up from what Watson did quite a few times last year.

Get off you your friggin high horse, and quit with the "deluded" comment BS, cuz someone thinks different from you.

 

[patchick]

I suspect our impressions of both players are as much our level of expectations as their level of play. Watson is a good starting TE, but expectations of him were sky high as a 1st-round draft pick with extraordinary athleticism. Thomas has looked strong in limited opportunities, which is terrific for a 3rd-round pick with yawn-inducing measurables.

If guy 1 is a slight disappointment, guy 2 a happy surprise, then guy 2 naturally wins the emotional contest. But who do you actually want on the field, the guy who is 80% of greatness or the guy who is 120% of average? (Just hypotheticals, I'm not really saying Thomas is average, do not bear fangs!)

How about this: Thomas looks like the better VALUE, but to this point Watson is clearly the superior PLAYER.

 

[livinginthe past]

Obviously things are going a little too swimmingly in Patriotville

Watson has looked good so far this year - we went to him early against the Chargers (first two passing plays, I think) and then again for the 1st TD.

You really can't bemoan Watsons lack of receiving production when the guys who are paid primarily to do just that are playing so well - Watson will be a check-down receiver most of the time - its just a fact that Brady hans't had a great deal of need for checkdowns so far this year.

TE's who put up huge numbers often play for teams with a weak WR corps - Heap (Ravens), Gates (Chargers), Gonzalez (Chiefs), Crumpler (Falcons).

Thomas is definitely intruiging, suffice to say on alot of teams in the NFL this guy would be a starter, or would have been given a good opportunity to start anyways.

We have great depth across the board - save the stress and the cat-fights for when things actually start to go wrong.

 

[sebman2112]

I suspect our impressions of both players are as much our level of expectations as their level of play. Watson is a good starting TE, but expectations of him were sky high as a 1st-round draft pick with extraordinary athleticism. Thomas has looked strong in limited opportunities, which is terrific for a 3rd-round pick with yawn-inducing measurables.

If guy 1 is a slight disappointment, guy 2 a happy surprise, then guy 2 naturally wins the emotional contest. But who do you actually want on the field, the guy who is 80% of greatness or the guy who is 120% of average? (Just hypotheticals, I'm not really saying Thomas is average, do not bear fangs!)

How about this: Thomas looks like the better VALUE, but to this point Watson is clearly the superior PLAYER.

One thing it seems a lot of fans forget is even with Watson dropping some passes last year he was still among the top TE's in the league. (8th in yards, and 3rd highest YPC among those with 40 receptions or more) Plus, the Patriots didn't have great options at WR for most of the 2006 season so defenses started double teaming Watson.

The guy has only played about two seasons worth of football so I really don't understand why some posters think Watson has shown what his max ability is, and he's not going to get any better. He could still develope into an even better TE (he's only 26).

Heck, I know I'm not the only one who's noticed his increased blocking efforts (some of those blocks were pretty good), and he's not been dropping passes so far either.

I'll tell you what though, I really like having a backup TE with David Thomas' ability.

 

[Ring 6]

One thing it seems a lot of fans forget is even with Watson dropping some passes last year he was still among the top TE's in the league. (8th in yards, and 3rd highest YPC among those with 40 receptions or more) Plus, the Patriots didn't have great options at WR for most of the 2006 season so defenses started double teaming Watson.

The guy has only played about two seasons worth of football so I really don't understand why some posters think Watson has shown what his max ability is, and he's not going to get any better. He could still develope into an even better TE (he's only 26).

Heck, I know I'm not the only one who's noticed his increased blocking efforts (some of those blocks were pretty good), and he's not been dropping passes so far either.

I'll tell you what though, I really like having a backup TE with David Thomas' ability.

I think the point is this:
1) For whatever reason, I like Dave Thomas
2) I root for Dave Thomas
3) I'd like to see Dave Thomas become a really good player
4) I step out there and say "I think Dave Thomas will become the starter" I probably meant ot say hope
5) I am asked to explain what I have seen that would make me think that way
6) I cannot answer. So, since he hasn't hardly done anything yet, I cite that vague unexplainabnle quality known as 'upside'.
7) Faced with the prospect that the starter is good, I now pull out the old "We know what the starter can do, maybe the backup can do more" Of course this logic would work with Cassel replacing Brady, Yates replacing Mankins, etc. We know what randy moss can do, so we aren't getting any more out of him than that. I think that when Chad Jackson is healthy we should cut Moss and start Jackson because we dont know how good he can be and Moss has hit his ceiling.

Its a reverse argument. A statement was made based on no fact, so when fact is asked for you must answer to fact with 'what if'.

In essence this all boils down to:
Watson is our starting TE. Dave Thomas is another TE who we have seen little of. WHAT IF Thomas got on the field? Maybe he is even better than Watson, because he hasn't played yet so he hasn't proven he isn't.


Let me be the first to get on the record:
Matt Gutierez has more upside than Tom Brady. I think he's smarter and stronger. How can I say he is smarter? Well, I remember at least one time when the reciever went one way and Brady threw the other way, and it looked like Brady misread the coverage, so he has definitely had some problems reading coverages. Gutierez is stronger and faster too. We have seen everything Brady can do, but have yet to scratch the surface on Gutierez. I think by the end of the season, Gutierez will be the starter/