Daunte Culpepper

[Cannon Arm]

If we were going to bring in a guy whose best days are well behind him I'd prefer Vinny T.

Eh, that's fine, too, honestly.

 

[CrazyDave]

Matt Cassel = no playoffs.

Kevin OConnell = playoffs but no SB.

Daunte Culpepper = SB Championship.

OMFG.
Put down the crack pipe dude.
Seriously

 

[BRiZ]

Uh, little bit of an oversimplification of what I said.

First, New England was a run first team before Dillon showed up. You may want to review the 2001 season and verify your understanding of the offense. You may recall a running back by the name of Antowain Smith who rushed for 1000+ yards that season and left the year Dillon came here. If you think, other than last season's results there have been monster changes in offensive philosophies with Brady, take the time to review his career stats and look at the yardage as every year is pretty much the same +/- 400 yards.

Second, Dillon was acquired in the offseason and added ability to the running game. If he represents a major change over previous seasons other than greater ability, long-time fans may beg to differ with your conclusion. New England under Belichick has been all about clock control prior to last year, and the running game and short passing game supports that goal.

Third, as to your 3 TE set theory, the Patriots had Graham as primarily a blocker (why he went to Denver - to catch passes) and Watson as a receiver (and yes, there were other TEs on the roster). If you can add all the TE receptions up and find a season where that was most of the pass offense or at a level comparable to the days Ben Coates, I will accept that was something more than a play in a multitude of potential offensive plays. Otherwise, the fact they could run such a play does not make it the identity of the offense.

The system is designed based on personnel available, and that is an evolutionary process. Individual personnel skill sets may result in offensive scheme tendencies, but this evolution takes a heck of a lot longer than a season to build, and certainly longer than a week. It took a quarterback of Brady's skill and a lot of offseason work to make the receiving corps work at the level it did last year. Culpepper never had Brady's reputation as a field general, and never will. Bringing in a quarterback is even more difficult as you do not simply "go" from pocket passing to "run and shoot." Blocking schemes change, required lineman capabilities change, receiver reactions change and then you have to deal with the basic chemistry issues than any new quarterback will deal with on a new team. You do not plug a radically different quarterback into an established offense and say "adapt." That is a complete revamp of an offense, and I do not see the Pats losing Brady's supporting cast during his 12 months away from the game to add the personnel necessary to support a "has been." It is called bad fit, and given the fact Culpepper was victimized by defenses in the division when playing for Miami and his history of fumbling the ball when he had skills, I doubt Belichick shares your enthusiasm.

you said we were a precision route running pocket passing precise offense and that was true last year and going into this year and Brady fit the mold perfectly. But that is certainly NOT how this offense has been in the past WITH Brady at the helm. We pounded the rock with Dillon and as you say Smith back a few seasons ago and back in the day because we had personel to run it, we had Graham to block in beastly double-tripple TE formations. When Graham left how many double TE sets did we run the following season? Hardly none. Also we were a dink and dunk offense with the scrub WRs we had in the past, not until we got Moss did we air it out like last season.

Brady is down this season, we arent going to try to duplicate what he can do, there is no other Brady on this team or in the league, the offense will adapt, if we sign another QB we will adapt to their strengths, or just go with Cassel. There will be more QB draws because Cassel (or OConnel) can scramble and Brady cant, we will take advantage of their strengths and change the system, its not gunna be run totally the way it was when Brady was healthy. We could certainly bring in Culpepper and adapt to his game if we wanted to, they arent gunna bring him in and expect him to be Brady. We had to change when Moss was brought in, and with Welker you saw alot more spread and slot stuff. To say we cant sign Culpepper because there would be no way he could run the type of offense Brady runs is correct, but they wouldnt ask him to they would change like we always change with new personell. I dont think there would be a dramatic change like going from a pounding running game with double TEs to a spread offense with elite WRs in Moss and Welker airing it out. The changes would be more subtle we would still go with a passing attack but suited more to Culpeppers strengths.

 

[DW Toys]

You h ave no idea what you're talking about. You honestly think we could get farther with a rookie than Cassel who's been in this system for what? 4 years? 3 years? And then the fact that you think Culpepper can get us to a SB. I don't care if he has Moss or not, he sucks now.

It's funny that all the fairweather fans are starting to become apparent now.

Cousin, I am a fan, I am just not a Cassel believer. I hope I am wrong but he does not have the swagger or confidence that Brady had the first time he took over.
All this crap about a TB clone is just that.
I think you can fine tune someone that will be better. Yes, I said it. I want to be wrong.
DW Toys

 

[Cannon Arm]

Someone lock this thread up...

I'm sick of hearing Moss had little to do with Duante Culpepper's success...

Being from Minnesota I have seen Moss made fairly decent quarterbacks with great arms into elite QBs (i.e. Randall Cunningham, Jeffrey George, and Culpepper).

Honestly, I mean how all they had to do was throw a halfway decent deep ball and let Moss go up and grab it for a touchdown. For those of you that have never seen the highlights just go youtube Moss during his heydays with the Vikes.

Heck he even made Kerry Collins looked half way decent during the early on when he was with the Raiders.

Even without Moss, Culpepper was just lucky to inherit an offense that also had Cris Carter, and Robert Smith, along with a pretty decent offensive line.

I'm not saying Culpepper was ever a bad QB (sorta like the suck-ass the Vikes have now for a QB)...I'm just saying he was never really an elite QB...

He threw a beautiful deep ball and was very mobile and hard to bring down...

Of course this was before his entire knee (ACL, MCL, PCL) was oblitherated and was never the same after that...

C-Pep's 2004 season, with 4,717 yards, 39 touchdowns and breaking Dan Marino's NFL record for combined passing and rushing yards with 5,123 total yards, was more than just a good system or Moss turning bums into HOFers.

 

[Cannon Arm]

I am not sure how you can watch the Patriots offense and compare it to the Minnesota offense and say the two are remotely similar, other than the presence of Randy Moss.

That's a pretty big similarity. Moss had more than a bit role in our offense last season. Our playbook is filled with plays that involve Randy Moss. I just don't even see how anyone can see this as anything but a no-brainer. Moss loves C-Pep. Do you realize how important it is to keep Randy Moss happy? He is a temperamental person. It takes more than just having Moss on the field for Moss to blossom. Hell, it wasn't enough in the Super Bowl, when he only had 62 yards. Brady built up a rapport with him, and he was able to speed that a long quicker than other QBs because he's freaking Tom Brady.

C-Pep has the rapport already. He's driven this Porsche that is Randy Moss a lot. It doesn't matter that he hasn't driven it in 4 years. He can still drive it and make it perform. I'm certain of it. What harm does it do to have C-Pep here so that we at least have options? I'm not calling for Cassel to be benched this week. Let Cassel play for 5-6 games and see how things are going. C-Pep would have a decent handle on things by then and we'd have the option of going with him. Right now, we have no Plan B if Cassel sucks. That's irresponsible.

 

[MassPats38]

you said we were a precision route running pocket passing precise offense and that was true last year and going into this year and Brady fit the mold perfectly. But that is certainly NOT how this offense has been in the past WITH Brady at the helm. We pounded the rock with Dillon and as you say Smith back a few seasons ago and back in the day because we had personel to run it, we had Graham to block in beastly double-tripple TE formations. When Graham left how many double TE sets did we run the following season? Hardly none. Also we were a dink and dunk offense with the scrub WRs we had in the past, not until we got Moss did we air it out like last season.

Brady is down this season, we arent going to try to duplicate what he can do, there is no other Brady on this team or in the league, the offense will adapt, if we sign another QB we will adapt to their strengths, or just go with Cassel. There will be more QB draws because Cassel (or OConnel) can scramble and Brady cant, we will take advantage of their strengths and change the system, its not gunna be run totally the way it was when Brady was healthy. We could certainly bring in Culpepper and adapt to his game if we wanted to, they arent gunna bring him in and expect him to be Brady. We had to change when Moss was brought in, and with Welker you saw alot more spread and slot stuff. To say we cant sign Culpepper because there would be no way he could run the type of offense Brady runs is correct, but they wouldnt ask him to they would change like we always change with new personell. I dont think there would be a dramatic change like going from a pounding running game with double TEs to a spread offense with elite WRs in Moss and Welker airing it out. The changes would be more subtle we would still go with a passing attack but suited more to Culpeppers strengths.

How long have you been following this team? Teams have running and passing tendencies, so do you actually believe this team's passing game is an Oakland or Minnesota style freelance route offense? "Pounding the rock" is irrelevant to the nature of a passing game, and news flash, without timing routes Brady would not throw for 4000 yards with less than top tier receivers. Why do you think Doug Gabriel was released leading the team in receptions in 2006? Bad hair? And is Welker an "air it out" type of receiver? Not the last time I checked. Not unless you shave about .5 off his 40 time. Why do you think he had such a hard time getting into this league?

So according to your reasoning, we add blockers in the form of TEs and throw long to Welker, who lacks the genuine speed to break deep unless it surprises the secondary and Moss, who will be triple covered since he has the speed. Or try to forget our receivers and hand the ball off to the running backs, who will quickly face a predominant running defense. Moss, Gaffney and Welker have certain individual characteristics tailored to the offense Brady ran as the assumption is he would be around to run that offense. There is no time to change that fact, and since Culpepper is no longer able to move the way he did you cannot simply ask those receivers to run streak, curl and down and out routes to the rock as diagrammed in the huddle. It may sound simple to you, but these players move extremely fast on the field and as such game plans do not work the same way as playground or Madden football.

 

[Cannon Arm]

And I have a lot of confidence that Bill Belichick chose him for this role, and he can assess tallent better than everyone on this board combined.

Then why did he give the Steelers the opportunity to draft Tom Brady as their backup QB in the 5th round? They took Tee Martin instead. How brilliant would Belichick be if the Steelers had a different draft board for QBs on that day and took this kid from Michigan before the Pats pick in the 6th round came around? In fact, the Saints and the Browns were also looking for a backup QB on Day 2, just like we were. Belichick drafted Dave Stachelski and Jeff Marriott over Tom Brady (and over Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila and Adalius Thomas, I might add). How is that a testament to his talent assessment ability? Can you even imagine if today we'd be talking about having lost out on Brady so we could draft the great Dave Stachelski, a guy who didn't even make the team and has never played a down for the Pats?

 

[emoney_33]

you said we were a precision route running pocket passing precise offense and that was true last year and going into this year and Brady fit the mold perfectly. But that is certainly NOT how this offense has been in the past WITH Brady at the helm. We pounded the rock with Dillon and as you say Smith back a few seasons ago and back in the day because we had personel to run it, we had Graham to block in beastly double-tripple TE formations. When Graham left how many double TE sets did we run the following season? Hardly none. Also we were a dink and dunk offense with the scrub WRs we had in the past, not until we got Moss did we air it out like last season.

Brady is down this season, we arent going to try to duplicate what he can do, there is no other Brady on this team or in the league, the offense will adapt, if we sign another QB we will adapt to their strengths, or just go with Cassel. There will be more QB draws because Cassel (or OConnel) can scramble and Brady cant, we will take advantage of their strengths and change the system, its not gunna be run totally the way it was when Brady was healthy. We could certainly bring in Culpepper and adapt to his game if we wanted to, they arent gunna bring him in and expect him to be Brady. We had to change when Moss was brought in, and with Welker you saw alot more spread and slot stuff. To say we cant sign Culpepper because there would be no way he could run the type of offense Brady runs is correct, but they wouldnt ask him to they would change like we always change with new personell. I dont think there would be a dramatic change like going from a pounding running game with double TEs to a spread offense with elite WRs in Moss and Welker airing it out. The changes would be more subtle we would still go with a passing attack but suited more to Culpeppers strengths.

The system will NOT change, it may go through minor tweaks. I mean it has evolved over the years, but the whole system will not change based on the QB. Cassel has been groomed INTO THIS SYSTEM for over 3 years now. There is no "Brady system" and "Cassel system", there is the PATRIOTS system.

The patriots would NOT and can NOT change their entire system for a new QB (Daunte... who SUCKS). Have you f'ing followed this team this decade? I mean honestly.

 

[BRiZ]

The system will NOT change, it may go through minor tweaks. I mean it has evolved over the years, but the whole system will not change based on the QB. Cassel has been groomed INTO THIS SYSTEM for over 3 years now. There is no "Brady system" and "Cassel system", there is the PATRIOTS system.

The patriots would NOT and can NOT change their entire system for a new QB (Daunte... who SUCKS). Have you f'ing followed this team this decade? I mean honestly.

i never said the pats would change their entire system for a new QB, learn to read. I said they adapt their systems to the personels strengths, unfortunately we just lost our QB for the season and have an undrafted free agent running the squad, we may HAVE to pick up a QB and make some adjustments, theres not too many QBs on the market that fit the mold of Tom Brady.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Can you even imagine if today we'd be talking about having lost out on Brady so we could draft the great Dave Stachelski, a guy who didn't even make the team and has never played a down for the Pats?

Dave Stachelski. Yet another superstar like Chad Jackson that shortsighted BB didn't give a chance.
You guys are on a roll here!

 

[emoney_33]

i never said the pats would change their entire system for a new QB, learn to read. I said they adapt their systems to the personels strengths, unfortunately we just lost our QB for the season and have an undrafted free agent running the squad, we may HAVE to pick up a QB and make some adjustments, theres not too many QBs on the market that fit the mold of Tom Brady.

They don't know the system...

 

[BRiZ]

They don't know the system...

so what lots of QBs "know the system" and are scrubs. I think Alex Smith of the 49ers "knows the system" pretty well BUT HE IS NOT GOOD. It dont matter if he knows the system. Cassel may know the system but it wont matter if he is not GOOD.

You can bring in a veteran experienced QB and be fine, rookies or inexperienced QBs are tougher to throw into the fire. Football is football, once you know how to play the only difference is terminology.

 

[emoney_33]

so what lots of QBs "know the system" and are scrubs. I think Alex Smith of the 49ers "knows the system" pretty well BUT HE IS NOT GOOD. It dont matter if he knows the system. Cassel may know the system but it wont matter if he is not GOOD.

You can bring in a veteran experienced QB and be fine, rookies or inexperienced QBs are tougher to throw into the fire. Football is football, once you know how to play the only difference is terminology.

The patriots are the only ones who run the patriots system, I don't give a rats ass about other systems.

You can be fine with a veteran QB proven to SUCK than with an inexperienced 4th year backup who you have coached? Are you serious?

Yea football is football, BB lies and is a terrible evaluator and football is football.

 

[BRiZ]

The patriots are the only ones who run the patriots system, I don't give a rats ass about other systems.

You can be fine with a veteran QB proven to SUCK than with an inexperienced 4th year backup who you have coached? Are you serious?

Yea football is football, BB lies and is a terrible evaluator and football is football.

BB drafted chad jackson too....

Some of the players i wanted the pats to draft over the last few drafts, Antonio Cromartie, Devin Hester, Brandon Meriweather, Jerod Mayo, Dominque-Cromartie, i think im a pretty good evaluator of talent myself, i have a proven track record.

I dont agree that Culpepper SUCKS. He was playing in Oakland and Miami on a bad knee, two horrible organizations with no wrs or olines. Hes proven he can be one of the elite QBs in the league in the right situation. I think the pats could just be that right situation now, with an excellent wr corps, a good oline, and good coaches. Not to mention him and Moss would be playing out of their mind for a ring. Yea ill take that over a QB who is not good but "knows the system".

 

[DaBruinz]

DB here to save tha daaaaayyyy!

No he doesnt have a totally grasp on the offense but hes a much better QB than Cassel is. Cassel has a grasp on the offense but he is not -good- enough to get it done!

How do you know that Cassel isn't good enough to get it done? DId you become Ms. Friggin Cleo or something? NO. You didn't.

Culpepper used his legs alot in Oakland and Miami because he had no oline and no WRs that could get open he was running for his life every play. In Minnesota he put up some of the best passing numbers in the history of the league. He doesnt need to be albert einstine he just need to be able to play ball and i think he could do that well in this situation on a good team with great coaching and his buddy Moss.

I know alot more of what im talking about than you DB.

You don't know JACK about what you are talking about and you sure as hell don't know more than I do on this subject.

Culpepper had 3 rushing TDs while with the Raiders. ALL of them came in ONE game. Against the WORST team in the league. Sorry, but that's just not impressive. Besides that, Culpepper ALSO fumbled 9 times in his 7 games.

If you took your head out of your arse long enough, you'd realize that Culpepper has gotten worse and worse every year since he peaked in 2004. Hell, in Miami, he took 21 sacks in 4 games. He also only had 1 Rushing TD during that time.

Culpeppers Completion % has gotten worse each year. He's not had a year since 2004 where he's thrown more TDs than INTS.

Culpepper of NOW is not the Culpepper of 2004. He's not that good and he's NOT capable of running in the Pats offense because he can't recognize defenses.

 

[Cannon Arm]

Dave Stachelski. Yet another superstar like Chad Jackson that shortsighted BB didn't give a chance.
You guys are on a roll here!

You entirely missed what I was saying about Dave Stachelski. It had nothing to do with his not having had an opportunity to succeed in NE. Dave Stachelski is a crappy football player and if the Steelers or the Saints or the Browns didn't have their heads up their asses, we'd all be talking about what a blunder it was for Belichick to choose Dave Stachelski over Tom Brady.

 

[DaBruinz]

BB drafted chad jackson too....

Some of the players i wanted the pats to draft over the last few drafts, Antonio Cromartie, Devin Hester, Brandon Meriweather, Jerod Mayo, Dominque-Cromartie, i think im a pretty good evaluator of talent myself, i have a proven track record.

As I said earlier, even BLIND squirrels find nuts in the woods.

I dont agree that Culpepper SUCKS. He was playing in Oakland and Miami on a bad knee, two horrible organizations with no wrs or olines. Hes proven he can be one of the elite QBs in the league in the right situation. I think the pats could just be that right situation now, with an excellent wr corps, a good oline, and good coaches. Not to mention him and Moss would be playing out of their mind for a ring. Yea ill take that over a QB who is not good but "knows the system".

Of course you don't agree. You aren't smart enough to understand that your making excuses for Culpepper.

Miami had receivers in Marty Booker, Chris Chambers, and Randy McMichael. Not to mention Sammy Morris out of the backfield.

Oakland had good WRs as well. Jerry Porter and Ronald Curry might ring a bell for you.

What you fail to acknowledge is that Culpepper can't read defenses. He's never been able to read defenses. And he still tries to rely on his legs even though he's not nearly as quick nor as fast as he was.

 

[emoney_33]

BB drafted chad jackson too....

And he cut him after 2 years, he didn't keep him for 4 years and then trust him to be the #1 WR... WTF is your point?

Evaluating college players is not nearly the predictable science that evaluating players you coach for 3+ years is.

Some of the players i wanted the pats to draft over the last few drafts, Antonio Cromartie, Devin Hester, Brandon Meriweather, Jerod Mayo, Dominque-Cromartie, i think im a pretty good evaluator of talent myself, i have a proven track record.

Yea you should be working in the NFL, just not with the Pats please.

I dont agree that Culpepper SUCKS. He was playing in Oakland and Miami on a bad knee, two horrible organizations with no wrs or olines. Hes proven he can be one of the elite QBs in the league in the right situation. I think the pats could just be that right situation now, with an excellent wr corps, a good oline, and good coaches. Not to mention him and Moss would be playing out of their mind for a ring. Yea ill take that over a QB who is not good but "knows the system".

It doesn't matter if you agree, he wouldn't learn the system for weeks. He's never ran a complicated system like the Pats run. The pats have a friggin system that involves reads, route changing, unspoken synchronization between receiver/QB etc... It's not a "call a play and throw it up there" system, Daunte never ran a complicated system and isn't good at reading defenses.

And all that is still moot... even if he was smart and good he STILL couldn't learn the system quick enough this year.

 

[fourthandmiles]

100
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