Daniel Graham

[maverick4]

re

So if Graham will take $1 - $1.5 mil a year I'll hapilly have him back. If he demands $2 million plus, that's a lot of cash for a blocker - especially when BB can plug in a defensive guys when the blocking counts most on the goal line.

That's pretty much how I feel. If Graham will come back for 1.5Mill/yr or less, I will be very happy about it. He does have value, but not at a top-10 TE price.

.

 

[dryheat44]

Let's clear up something about Graham's hands. These numbers are from the folks at footballoutsiders, who chart every play of every game. Catch percentage is the number of balls that were thrown at the tight end that he caught. It doesn't get into the gray area of catchable ball or not. Some were undoubtedly bad passes.

Some TEs stand out above the rest. Dallas Clark and Jason Witten are in the low 70s (percentage). Graham checks in at 64%.

Some other notables:
Antonio Gates 64%
Jeremy Shockey 53%
Ben Watson 54%
Alge Crumpler 55%
LJ Smith 59%
Randy McMichael 58%

Graham's hands are better than you like to argue.

 

[maverick4]

re

Let's clear up something about Graham's hands. These numbers are from the folks at footballoutsiders, who chart every play of every game. Catch percentage is the number of balls that were thrown at the tight end that he caught. It doesn't get into the gray area of catchable ball or not. Some were undoubtedly bad passes.

Dryheat, thanks for looking that up, but I don't think those numbers reveal that much about a player's hands.

Some of those TE's are the main offensive weapon for their teams, and are double covered or run complicated routes. Other TE's are the 3/4th option and catch wide open short throws or passes in the flat. Also, the fact that the statistics do not take into account catchable balls or bad throws skews the numbers.

 

[DaBruinz]

FYI - The discussion of the ProFootball Weekly report that the Patriots are not intending on re-signing Graham is on this thread

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=36626

out of curiosity, how often are the Rumors in PFW accurate?

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Regardless of how you value Graham, the situation remains if BB wants to run a two TE offense, he needs two TEs. I don't care what Thomas and Mills did in college, they will require a lot of time and effort before they can be primary targets, if they can be primary targets, in the NFL.

BB values versatility and Graham is versatile. He can run routes, pass block and if asked, he can road grade. He brings some decent skills to the table. Unfortunately, we have never been able to see all his skills, usually because of circumstances beyond his control.

In my opinion, he needs to have a productive year in 2006 in order to justify a new contract.

 

[maverick4]

re

People talk as if there are no veteran TE's out there if depth is a concern...

Is it just crazy talk to suggest getting something rather than nothing for Graham? Even if that "something" is a reasonably priced veteran that maybe fills a long term need?

Is it crazy talk to suggest that Graham's blocking - while we all agree is great - isn't so great that BB uses defensive players in goal line situations as well?

Is it crazy talk to suggest that available TEs some of whom are decent veteran blockers and probably better pass catchers than Graham - could never fill his shoes in the short term?

I guess it is.

Then I guess I'm crazy.

 

[JoeSixPat]

out of curiosity, how often are the Rumors in PFW accurate?

If there's an independent source that you are aware of checking the accuracy of football reporting I'd be interested in knowing about it...

Of course I'm sure you're also aware of the Boston Globe, Boston Herald, and Patriots Insider articles that also speculated that BB's draft moves may very well signal the approaching end of Graham's tenure with the team, so be sure to include them and any other reports I may have missed speculating on the same thing as you conduct your research.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Oh crap, more kool-aid to drink?

Hell, I'll wait 'til they cut him. This one, to me, would be a puzzler. All Graham does is everything they ask him to do. They do have one developing super-stud at TE, in Watson - not a proven thing yet, but monstrous upside. They also have high hopes and nothing more for Mills and Thomas. For all we know, however, Thomas would be the Bethel of tight end choices.

To me, until Watson came along, I saw Graham developing into the new Coates or Vataha. I would be surprised if they let go of him... but no more surprised than when they let go of Drew, Willie Mac, Law, Milloy, Vinatieri, et. al.

Well, to quote the immortal words of David St. Hubbin, front man of Spinal Tap,

"Yeah well I'd probably be taking it a lot worse if I weren't so heavily sedated."

PFnV

 

[JoeSixPat]

Oh crap, more kool-aid to drink?

Hell, I'll wait 'til they cut him. This one, to me, would be a puzzler. All Graham does is everything they ask him to do. They do have one developing super-stud at TE, in Watson - not a proven thing yet, but monstrous upside. They also have high hopes and nothing more for Mills and Thomas. For all we know, however, Thomas would be the Bethel of tight end choices.

To me, until Watson came along, I saw Graham developing into the new Coates or Vataha. I would be surprised if they let go of him... but no more surprised than when they let go of Drew, Willie Mac, Law, Milloy, Vinatieri, et. al.

Well, to quote the immortal words of David St. Hubbin, front man of Spinal Tap,

"Yeah well I'd probably be taking it a lot worse if I weren't so heavily sedated."

PFnV

I think everyone hoped that Graham would be the next Ben Coates - as unfair a comparison as that may be... by now I think everyone knows he's not

If BB was among those who hoped he'd be half the TE Coates was I think he's gone after this season...

 

[dryheat44]

It seems to me that 60-75% of a tight end's job is blocking. So I don't think that BB saw Graham as the next Coates, who was a fair blocker, but nothing special. Someone on the offensive line (I forget who, but I think it was Light or Koppen) has said more than once that Graham is the best blocking lineman on the team, bar none. For the same reason you wouldn't trade the best blocking left tackle in the game, I don't think you trade the best blocking tight end in the game, who can also beat one-on-one coverage routinely.

I agree that if BB drafted Graham with an eye towards being a Ben Coates/Shannon Sharpe/Tony Gonzalez type, he's likely disappointed and probably won't offer him a whole lot to re-sign.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Oh fine, split hairs then, Dry. I meant he can catch stuff and he can block stuff.... more to the point, what does this guy need to do to be considered a difference maker here?

You've pointed out his blocking ability. He's not one of those non-factor TEs in terms of catching balls... in fact, he's right up there with Watson on catches and TDs. Don't have any stats handy, but I remember looking into those last season. He's not Watson but he is another weapon.

I also believe on another team he'd have been a top-5 TE by the "catches/TDs" measure, and the same is definitely true of Watson (who may still end up being.) To me, Graham's "not producing at that level" has as much to do with the fact that he's so good at other things, he gets used in other ways (blocking.)

So we add Mills at FB, and Thomas to replace Fauria, and the assumption is Graham's days are numbered. I think the Pats stacked the value where it stacked, and took the best guys they could use. I can only say it seems silly to me to jettison an anchor of the team who isn't costing you much, and who doesn't stand to increase all that much in cost.

Now if Graham tries for north of $2-point-something-low, sure, he's replaceable. I don't read it that way though... he's always seemed happy to be a Patriot. Not that getting full market value is a matter of whether or no you're "happy" or anything, but he strikes me as a "one-mansion, one-Rolls" kinda NFL player... you know, working class. Lunch pail.

I dunno. I think we need a couple more tight ends in camp to really sort this out. Are there any available in FA? Can we get a supplemental tight ends draft rolling, just for the Pats?

PFnV

 

[dryheat44]

Oh fine, split hairs then, Dry. I meant he can catch stuff and he can block stuff.... more to the point, what does this guy need to do to be considered a difference maker here?

You've pointed out his blocking ability. He's not one of those non-factor TEs in terms of catching balls... in fact, he's right up there with Watson on catches and TDs. Don't have any stats handy, but I remember looking into those last season. He's not Watson but he is another weapon.

I also believe on another team he'd have been a top-5 TE by the "catches/TDs" measure, and the same is definitely true of Watson (who may still end up being.) To me, Graham's "not producing at that level" has as much to do with the fact that he's so good at other things, he gets used in other ways (blocking.)

So we add Mills at FB, and Thomas to replace Fauria, and the assumption is Graham's days are numbered. I think the Pats stacked the value where it stacked, and took the best guys they could use. I can only say it seems silly to me to jettison an anchor of the team who isn't costing you much, and who doesn't stand to increase all that much in cost.

Now if Graham tries for north of $2-point-something-low, sure, he's replaceable. I don't read it that way though... he's always seemed happy to be a Patriot. Not that getting full market value is a matter of whether or no you're "happy" or anything, but he strikes me as a "one-mansion, one-Rolls" kinda NFL player... you know, working class. Lunch pail.

I dunno. I think we need a couple more tight ends in camp to really sort this out. Are there any available in FA? Can we get a supplemental tight ends draft rolling, just for the Pats?

PFnV

We're on the same side of the debate. I wasn't responding to your post. My apologies if I somehow offended you.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Sorry back, that was meant to be the collegial mock-bicker tone, not sarcastic Simon-from-American-Idol tone. I actually don't think I really even have the standing to take the latter, even if I had the intent, in terms of football stuff. Always learning, and this is a great place to do it. I've just been on the political board lately, and your perceptions get skewed there.

PFnV

 

[dhamz]

As always, it will come down to value. If they can strike a deal with Graham that they feel makes signing him a good value they will. If they can't, then they let him walk.

That is the organization's philospohy and if you think they are going to break it and sign Daniel Graham at all costs you haven't been paying attention. He is a valuable member of the team who I'm sure they want to keep at the right price. They aren't going to break the bank for a guy like Graham, especially when he has had some trouble staying healthy, and will be looking for a deal taking him to age 32 or 33.

I'd like to keep him. That said, if someone is going to make him one of the top 2 or 3 paid TEs in the league they are going to let him walk. I can't really argue with that.