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Dan Gronkowski says Josh's playbook is identical to Pats

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by vuudu, Sep 10, 2011.

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  1. vuudu

    vuudu Rookie

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    Dan says Denver's playbook under Josh McDaniels is very identical to the Patriots playbook. It got me to think how other coaches who have left us have taken the Pats playbook and used it against us.
    I can guess this has been discussed a lot here in the past though I don't remember, but what I want to know is how we can change. Bring in new ideas.
    Can this happen under BB? Or is it something we should just accept as part of the trade?
  2. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    My thought is its normal practice. BB probably did it with Parcells as did Coughlin and many others. Meaning the base for BB offense has been out there for years but it gets molded and change thru the years by guys like Charlie but then they take that with em too.
  3. Sicilian

    Sicilian Rookie

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    Disclaimer: I have no football coaching experience, so this is based 100% on speculation and best guesses.

    That said, I don't think this is that big a deal (or at least SHOULDN'T be with a competent coaching staff). Basically, there aren't many plays (radical differences like the Wildcat aside) that NFL defenses haven't seen. Sometimes you line up in different ways or add a tiny wrinkle here and there, but no one is breaking out new routes, new ways to block people, and new ways to throw the football.

    What changes is the terminology, points of emphasis, and ability of the quarterback to make adjustments pre-snap. My guess is Brady's calls change week to week (and sometimes midway through a game), so it's not like opposing coaches are going to be able to decipher how he's changing a play.

    They may be able to bring some insights like, "If they line up like this, this is the play," but to me that would be an inexcusable scenario. If you have a formation that only has one play designed for it, throw it away. You need at least three different plays for each exact alignment, and each should be able to cover the weakness of the other depending on what your QB sees.

    TL;DR... if a coach leaves and is able to use our playbook against us, that's an indictment on our remaining coaches. I don't think it's that helpful if you're a competent staff.
  4. tobias funke

    tobias funke Rookie

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    The whole point of organized, competitive sports is that the best and most useful tactics will spread around the league and help to level the playing field.

    This helps reduce the element of scheme vs. skill.

    Scheme is still important, but at the end of the day, the more each team knows about what their competition is doing, the better the overall competitive product will be.
  5. JaxPats

    JaxPats Rookie

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    Really dont think its a big deal. Im sure they all do it. They use the best of the best and improve on it. Any insight is good as they always "give a tryout" to opposing players during the season and glean "some " info from them. Just a normal part of the game. I'll bet coach B.s is very complex too.
  6. TheGodInAGreyHoodie

    TheGodInAGreyHoodie Rookie

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    It is part of the trade. As BB pointed out in 2009 there is absolutely no difference between the Jets defense and the Ravens.
  7. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    The formations, plays, and alignments don't really change, but the terminology changes every year.

    So hypothetically, even if you had the other team's playbook by virtue of hiring one of their coaches away (who would have had to commit a breach of etiquette) for this coming season, you would still have to know the change in terminology to know which plays match up with which calls, and that's not including all the "misdirection" they throw in the audible or calls at the line.
  8. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And, think of this...players have enough trouble learning their own team's playbook, signals and LOS changes never mind incorporating another team's just for that one week. I'm not saying that they don't use a few well selected 'tells' scouted from film of the opposition each week but the ability to learn new each week some of the opposition's playbook, diagnose on the fly and react at football speed is part of what makes the elite players and coaches what they are.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2011
  9. vuudu

    vuudu Rookie

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    I just feel that Brown's game last year was one where they just knew one play too many. Yes, they had an extra week to prepare for us, but they just knew how to attack our weakness so well. We were not able to adjust all game. Got helped by a few penalties to move the chains most of the time.
  10. PatsWickedPissah

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    An example of having our tendencies and tells used against us was Dom Capers DC of GB who did fairly well against us last year with a back up QB. I'm sure that GB was well prepared on both sides of the ball via Capers' Pats experience and special film analysis insight but then the coaches and several of their players ARE elite and probably have the football IQ to master new info.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2011
  11. tobias funke

    tobias funke Rookie

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    Knowing our plays helped them run over our DL?

    Knowing our plays made Gronk fumble away a touchdown drive?

    Give me a break.
  12. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    The two biggest culprits in that game was, first, that we came out pretty flat, and were off.

    The other was the backer "amoeba" defensive front wrinkle which had that 0-5 front that absolutely refused to tip it's hand at the line, so for once, Brady really did not know what was coming because he could not get them to sell out on one of his patented hard counts or false calls.

    That had to take considerable discipline as well as plenty of practice, which is what they had (two weeks). I imagine Mangini had his backup QB act like Brady and yell all kinds of nonsense at the line to try to get the Browns D to sell, and if they did, I imagine Mangini also made them take a penalty lap every time they did.
  13. DropKickFlutie

    DropKickFlutie Rookie

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    This is pretty interesting since McDaniels still runs the Meyer-adapted spread offense, while since he's left the Patriots now run a very tight end-heavy power offense.
  14. voluntarysaftey

    voluntarysaftey Rookie

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    If it were the exact same I'd be somewhat suprised.
    I know this is unlikely - but in theory ppl shouldn't be bringing research/playbooks from one job to the other as you don't own that work, the employer does.

    If it were almost the same, I wouldn't be as suprised.

    I think Josh likely had a huge role in creating that offensive playbook -- The Weis playbook was significantly different than the McDaniels playbook.

    And under the Pats, that playbook had the greatest offensive season in history.

    So its not a shock that Josh would create a new playbook, writing down the same plays from memory.
  15. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I'm not as quick to dismiss this as others.

    I think if you're familiar with a coaches tendencies, it can't help but be an advantage.

    Having a good idea about what playcalls are most likely to be coming your way is also an advantage - at least compared to other coaches going up against Belichick less familiar with him - but of course every play requires proper execution from both sides

    But my overall feeling is that when plays fail it has more to do with execution than play calling, regardless of whether a coach across the way has an idea of what's coming against him or not.
  16. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Belichick is running systems that were created form Ray Perkins, Ron Ehhart, Chuck Fairbanks, and Hank Bulloughs. This is the way things happen in the NFL. When coordinators become head coaches, they take the system they know. Over time they may revise it to adapt to the change in the NFL, their players, or a change in philosophy.

    Basically every Bill Walsh disciple runs the same West Coast offense he employed. All the former Steelers run the same 3-4 defense that the Steelers run. It is just the name of the game. McDaniels did nothing wrong in taking the offense he actually helped to revise over the years to Denver.
  17. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    Not a big deal at all that someone else has your plays. With film study and scouting as advanced as it is everyone knows what everyone else runs. The keys are #1 execution and #2 mixing your play calls well enough so that you avoid tendencies that help your opponent predict which play you are running at a specific time. Your playbook is not your gameplan for that weeks games.

    The Colts have run the same simple offense for over a decade. On paper it might be the simplest in the NFL. They run the same plays out of the same formations every week. The entire league can probably diagram the whole thing at this point. Yet they are at or near the league lead in offense every year. It is because they have the players to execute it well and they mix it up well with Manning changing plays at the line.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2011
  18. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    ...and what shouldn't be overlooked is the extent to which coaches do their best to analyze film and playcalling of an opposing team by studying game tape...

    ... including tapes of sideline play calling, obtained within the parameters set out by the NFL (i.e. not filmed from the sidelines - though most NFL fans continue to delude themselves about why coaches and coordinators cover their mouths when calling in plays.)

    So that does even the playing field a bit more among the guys not from the same coaching tree
  19. Ron Sellers

    Ron Sellers Rookie

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    First thing I thought of when I read Gronkowski said that was that most likely a couple of veterans pulled him aside and let him know that you don't need to be saying things like that to the press. Regardless of how true it is, or what information may or may not be gleaned from one teams' familiarity with another's playbook, Patriot players are taught to just make a simple generic statement that does not invite a 'wow, really?' reaction from the media or fans.
  20. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    now all the rams need is Tom Brady to run thats offense and they will be all set :cool:
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