Dale and Holly...Something just doesn't seem right

[MoLewisrocks]

Yeah, I just listened to the audio and he said that it came up during the Burgess discussions about three weeks ago and they passed and there were no serious discussions. Then Oakland called again on Saturday and they listened and they discussed it internally and in a matter of 6-8 hours it was done. I think the difference may have been the level of interest and compensation increasing and a better handle on the new faces on the roster (and maybe Seymour himself) after the pre season. He said they weighed all the pros and cons and decided the deal overall represented good value.

 

[Fencer]

Yeah, I just listened to the audio and he said that it came up during the Burgess discussions about three weeks ago and they passed and there were no serious discussions. Then Oakland called again on Saturday and they listened and they discussed it internally and in a matter of 6-8 hours it was done. I think the difference may have been the level of interest and compensation increasing and a better handle on the new faces on the roster (and maybe Seymour himself) after the pre season. He said they weighed all the pros and cons and decided the deal overall represented good value.

That phrasing sounds as if the offer went up AND the amount they were willing to take went down.

BB's negotiating style usually seems to be toward the take-or-leave-it end of the spectrum rather than the make-me-an-offer style, but it sounds as if he wasn't extreme about that in this particular case.

 

[Rob0729]

Didn't Belichick state today that the discussions have been going on since the Burgess trade... and that Oakland was the one who initiated the discussion and was pushing for it?

If true that would certainly take the shine off of a conspiracy theory.

Even with the Patriots' secrecy, I can't see the Pats shopping Seymour around flying below the radar. If the Pats were the ones being proactive in shopping Seymour, they would have called other teams. That is why I believe Belichick on this.

 

[Lord_Reginald_III]

per Ty Warren, Seymour saw the writing on the wall & said something to the effect of: 'theyre not going to keep me around b/c of my contract status'

 

[Lord_Reginald_III]

you can hear the Warren interview here

 

[vyrago]

per Ty Warren, Seymour saw the writing on the wall & said something to the effect of: 'theyre not going to keep me around b/c of my contract status'

I'm sure that's part of the reason why the deal got done, but I tend to believe what Mo suggested: the Raiders increased their offer and lowered their demands.

The writing on the wall that Seymour saw was the Patriots' historical unwillingness to keep a player at a higher value than they think he's worth. Honestly, I don't think this is either rocket science or the DaVinci Code.

It's BB-Patriots business as usual.

 

[Lord_Reginald_III]

The writing on the wall that Seymour saw was the Patriots' historical unwillingness to keep a player at a higher value than they think he's worth. Honestly, I don't think this is either rocket science or the DaVinci Code.

It's BB-Patriots business as usual.

yup, agreed

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

Holly is really sour on this deal... I know Seymour is a talent, and he would have helped us rather than hurt us, I just dont know...

 

[Jackson 2]

Holly is really sour on this deal... I know Seymour is a talent, and he would have helped us rather than hurt us, I just dont know...

He really is. It's continuing today/right now. He's adopted a different, anti-Pats/BB persona. He typically is the opposite.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Hol chooses not to 'get' the business side of the NFL. That's OK for the casual fan who doesn't want his/her entertainment compromised by financial issues but it's NOT OK in my opinion for a professional observer of the scene. So because of emotional reasons, BB is supposed to keep a guy he's 99% certain he won't be able to re-sign after next year for a tail end of the 3rd round comp pick in 2011? Remember, it's Sey and his agent who first played hardball geting unique concessions from the Pats in his last deal. Were he interested in ending his career here he could have indicated such to his agent and no trade would likely have occured even with the temptation of a 2011 pick. BB's move certainly implies that he is thinking long term for the team and intends to be here post 2011.

Folks critical of the deal should focus on the possibility that BB has diminished the odds that the Pats win it all this particular year by looking long term. That's a legititimate concern. However, now the Pats have the cap space to add one or two over the hill fill ins as injuries take their toll during the season.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

He really is. It's continuing today/right now. He's adopted a different, anti-Pats/BB persona. He typically is the opposite.

I'm telling you, he needs to go back into the bowels of Gillette for a six month under cover refresher on why we do what we do in context.

One of the reasons Felger lost his mind when Holley got the book deal was Holley had been a critic of BB based solely on the Cleveland spin (while Felger was always a supporter and admirer even under duress from his peers). Holley acknowledged that he was wr..wr..wrong and that was one of the reasons BB agreed to work with him (and allow him almost unfettered access for two freakin' seasons). He felt Holley was enough of a serious journalist to be trusted not to abuse that access. And he didn't, and he left Gillette with an understanding of and appreciation for how they do what they do, and why, that few outside of BB's inner circle of media friends had.

But the access has been more limited in recent years. Maybe because as a radio/TV host you can never really trust them. Holley has been wrong almost as often as right most recently because his info now comes not from access to the inner workings so much as lasting friendships with the players (and some former coaches like Mangini, even). Sey was one of his boys and he's likely not able to seperate that from the equation when he calculates the risk/reward ratio on this deal. He seems more emotionally upset than anything, moreso even than the players.

 

[Jackson 2]

I'm telling you, he needs to go back into the bowels of Gillette for a six month under cover refresher on why we do what we do in context.

One of the reasons Felger lost his mind when Holley got the book deal was Holley had been a critic of BB based solely on the Cleveland spin (while Felger was always a supporter and admirer even under duress from his peers). Holley acknowledged that he was wr..wr..wrong and that was one of the reasons BB agreed to work with him (and allow him almost unfettered access for two freakin' seasons). He felt Holley was enough of a serious journalist to be trusted not to abuse that access. And he didn't, and he left Gillette with an understanding of and appreciation for how they do what they do, and why, that few outside of BB's inner circle of media friends had.

But the access has been more limited in recent years. Maybe because as a radio/TV host you can never really trust them. Holley has been wrong almost as often as right most recently because his info now comes not from access to the inner workings so much as lasting friendships with the players (and some former coaches like Mangini, even). Sey was one of his boys and he's likely not able to seperate that from the equation when he calculates the risk/reward ratio on this deal. He seems more emotionally upset than anything, moreso even than the players.

I agree with everything you've written. I think it's right on the money. I guess perhaps introspectively I'm disappointed in him because I've always considered him a voice of reason in the midst of the anti-BB winderness of many media members and the over-whelming support of those such as the Big Show guys. He's really p!$$ed and he's not hiding it well.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I think the die was cast when they did the 3 year extension. It was for top dollar, but for short term and saved the last rookie year. A compromise of sorts. They tried for years to reel this guy all in. Just never happened. Hell, Kraft took him on the Israel trip a couple of years ago. They wanted him to be the kind of franchise player they are willing to invest in long term, like Brady. It's just not who Richard is. He's thin skinned. He's leery of management (something Lawyer taught him to be). On some level he bristles at the idea of the system being the prime component in the dynasty.

I think what Warren said today was the deciding factor. Richard had been harping on this since the end of last season, his feeling he was going to be dealt. Bill has a lot of real promising youngsters on this defense. He wants them to form a new core. He decided during camps and the pre season that he had enough DL depth to pull a Seymour deal off. He had improved the secondary sufficiently and Brady is back. Bill did what he could because he could.

He doesn't hate Seymour any more than he did Lawyer. Disappointed maybe because he actually loved these guys, they were his football matters guys (or so he thought). But it is what it is and Bill reacts accordingly. A lot of people mistake his ability to subtract the emotion from the equation for him not having any. I think the Bruschi PC put that to rest. He loves and respects football players, particularly those who are all in for winning. Those who aren't, irrespective of talent, he moves them a year early rather than a year late, if the opportunity presents itself (be that cap savings, opening up a spot for a youngster, trading them for a first...). Just like he does with the guy who has lost a step he can't cover for or otherwise justify (Vrabel as opposed to Tedy).

Faulk was just on and judging by his brief comments Richard is working through the shock of reality. As he said, he's just got to pull it together and move on...this team will. I think he was always the guy who quietly talked tough but really just wanted a hug. Bill's not a hugger, at least until you retire. He's self motivated and he demands that from his players. Prove you can do that and he'll hug you plenty when it's all over.

I agree with this post 100% for a lot of reasons, more so than your "Thank you Seymour" post on another thread.

I think the simple version of this whole affair is that BB wanted a 2011 top five pick more than he wanted Seymour. Partly due to DL depth, partly due to heading off any contract squabbling because Seymour has loose lips.

BB can handle loose lips and non-kool aid players if it helps him win games and he has tried to get players like Ty Law back in the fold from time to time, showing he is willing to forgive, forget and work with anybody that gives him a better chance to win. So clearly it came to a point where Seymour was simply worth less than that draft pick.

Even if Seymour was a model teammate and drinking the kool aid, there is no real reason to think that this might not have happened anyway.

BB is very very efficient these days at doing what is best for the team now that Pioli has moved on.

 

[captain stone]

Even if Seymour was a model teammate and drinking the kool aid, there is no real reason to think that this might not have happened anyway.

I kinda disagree with this. If he had the outward intensity of Bruschi or the inward intensity of Troy, plus the winning-comes-first, no-penny-left-behind-comes-second attitude, then I feel that Seymour would still be a Patriot today.

 

[Pats726]

I do think Holly has lost a bit of objectivity this last year..Hobbs...Seymour..and I think it's incredibly obvious...and yet, I do think he still has some reasonable points..unlike Feler, Mazz and some of the others who are really ant-Patriot.
This AM he did talk a bit about the money situation and that he believed that Seymour and the Pats may have been in deep negotiation and that it became nasty and THAT was why he was traded.
I wonder if this is even close to reality.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I think there is something underneath the surface that kick started the trade process. I don't know if something Seymour did or said threatened locker room chemistry or if BB was sending a message, but something started the process.

Maybe one day after Seymour is done playing we will learn what it was, but at best all we'll hear is one side of the story. BB will take his side to the grave and the truth left town on the 5pm train, never to be seen again.

So in summary one day in the not so distant future BB and Seymour will meet again at some HOF induction ceremony and they will hug and pat each other on the back and say "it's all in the past we're living in the present."

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think there is something underneath the surface that kick started the trade process. I don't know if something Seymour did or said threatened locker room chemistry or if BB was sending a message, but something started the process.

Maybe one day after Seymour is done playing we will learn what it was, but at best all we'll hear is one side of the story. BB will take his side to the grave and the truth left town on the 5pm train, never to be seen again.

So in summary one day in the not so distant future BB and Seymour will meet again at some HOF induction ceremony and they will hug and pat each other on the back and say "it's all in the past we're living in the present."

All possible.

Eugene Parker is not afraid to play hardball. Look at his client list. He has a track record on landing ground-breaking, big-time deals for both rookies and veterans.

Hines Ward (Super Bowl XL MVP and four-time Pro Bowler)
Richard Seymour (4 time All Pro)
Walter Jones (5 time All Pro)
Emmitt Smith (NFL all time leading rusher)
Larry Fitzgerald (All Pro)
Derrick Brooks (9 time All Pro)
Rod Woodson (11 time All Pro)
Aeneas Williams (8 time All Pro)
Rex Grossman (Super Bowl QB)
Devin Hester (NFL record holder, All Pro)
Cedric Benson (Super Bowl running back)
Curtis Martin (5 time All Pro)
Laveranues Coles (All Pro receiver)
Jason Peters (All Pro left tackle)
James Hardy (Bills 2008 2nd Round Draft Pick)
Greg Jennings (Green Bay Packers, 2006 2nd Round Draft Pick]
Felix Jones (Cowboys 2008 1st Round Draft Pick]
Deion Sanders (HoF CB)
Tashard Choice (Cowboys 2008 3rd Round Draft Pick)
Steven Jackson (St. Louis Rams star running back)
Tyson Jackson (Kansas City Chiefs 2009 1st Round Draft Pick)
Michael Crabtree (San Francisco 49ers 2009 1st Round Draft Pick)

It's like a MLB player procures the services of Scott Boras. You don't get a Scott Boras to represent you unless you want top-dollar.

Seymour hired him. He wants to get paid. That is his right.

It's like the quote from the movie, "Airplane".

"They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say.......let 'em crash"

 

[Ring 6]

I kinda disagree with this. If he had the outward intensity of Bruschi or the inward intensity of Troy, plus the winning-comes-first, no-penny-left-behind-comes-second attitude, then I feel that Seymour would still be a Patriot today.

I dont think being the best player you can be and giving your best effort and wanting to be paid consistent with what your peers are paid are mutually exclusive.

 

[Rob0729]

Why is it when someone in the media in this town say something remotely negative about the Patriots is it that people come up with wild theories why they hold a grudge against someone. Sometimes people in the media actually feel that a move Belichick makes is wrong or is a head scratcher.

I seriously doubt Holley has any ax to grind. He just probably disagrees with the move or just can't understand the logic around it. It isn't exactly controversial to think that way. Losing Seymour doesn't help the Pats this year in any way. Most of the local media people who are total homers have at least given lipservice to this fact.

 

[captain stone]

I dont think being the best player you can be and giving your best effort and wanting to be paid consistent with what your peers are paid are mutually exclusive.

Consistent with what his peers are paid, or more than what any of them are paid?