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Dale and Holly...Something just doesn't seem right

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Pats726, Sep 8, 2009.

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  1. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I have though there was a back story in all of this after the trade..and it seems that D&H think so as well. Holly is quite connected with the team and really seems at a loss to undesrtand it..the timing and the way it was done. Arnold also sees it that way, but I really think MH has a real gut feeling there's a LOT that happened that caused this.
    I would really kind of skoff at it if it were a Felger or a Borges or others..but Holly has been connected and while he doesn't have exact knowledge..he knows how the team operates and this he said was way out of the norm.
    Who knows what exactly happened..why so quick..and for a player who has done so much for the franchise to have so little on the Pats web site and so few words from the FO...it just seems like something is amiss.
    Maybe it will stay hidden..maybe not but it seems like something is not all that right in the way this was done.
     
  2. ScottieC

    ScottieC In the Starting Line-Up

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    Ah, That's just D&H speculating. What you have here, is a Trade and a press release from the Patriots. Go back and check all the other trades and see what followed.

    Now, if you are expecting more because it was Richard and not Hobbs or some other player that was traded - Then I think everyone has forgotten about how the Patriots do business - Including Dale and Holley.

    You can go on and on about the contributions to the team and community and the Super Bowls and I'll agree with you on all that - Richard was special. VERY SPECIAL. I loved the guy and was shocked yesterday.

    But Bill deals with these things eerily similar no matter the player.

    Holley's pissed becasue they traded Hobb's and he's not going to get over it anytime soon - He needs to learn to be objective.
     
  3. PatsDeb

    PatsDeb PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, here's a total outsider's view on what might have happened. Richard Seymour was a fabulous player for his first 5 years for the Pats. Maybe he didn't always do what BB wanted (I think he worked out at home; then there was the incident with returning late from a relative's funeral), but he was so good, BB let it go. Then prior to 2006 he held out of camp for a new deal. He finally got it, but grudgingly, because it is definitely NOT the way the Pats do business. Then he gets injured. Knee(s) are in bad shape and prevent him from being a dominant player for both the 2006 and 2007 seasons. People openingly question a lot (on Patsfans and other places) whether he is "dogging it" or "done."

    He has a better year in 2008. Maybe he looks a little slow in training camp and BB is afraid he'll revert to 2006/2007 form, and he's got a few new guys that are younger and faster, but right now they are behind Seymour on the depth chart; maybe it still sticks in BB's craw that this guy got a new deal by holding out, and now we have the specter not only of him doing it again after this season, when his deal is up (although I guess he wouldn't hold out as he'd be a free agent), but more importantly inviting some of his close friends [Vince Wilfork anyone] to play hardball, because he did it and look what he got. Then the Raiders call with this ridiculous offer of a coveted 1st round pick in a year where there might be a rookie salary cap. BB pulls the trigger because: 1) he thinks he can make up for Seymour's production with the guys he has; 2) He's rid of the headache of trying to resign a guy who plays hardball in a year when he has lots of people to resign; 3) he sends a subtle message to the rest of the team that I'll send you to hell in a handbasket if you push me too far; 4) he gets a coveted first round pick for a guy he probably can't resign a year from now.

    While the whole thing seems harsh and hurtful to us fans (and it is - I wanted to cry when I heard the news - so much change in our team), it really isn't that surprising when you think about it. It's hard to like it, but not hard to understand it.
     
  4. Pat the Pats Fan

    Pat the Pats Fan In the Starting Line-Up

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    #50 Jersey

    Remember how shocked everyone was in 2003 when Milloy was flat out released?
    Did we recover? Memory serves we only lost 4 games including playoffs the next two years!

    That's how I am looking at this....:cool:
     
  5. Gwedd

    Gwedd PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #61 Jersey

    Seymour, or No Seymour...

    IIRC, Seymour missed 14 games, and the team went 12W/2L, so you can make of that what you will.

    Not making any judgement calls, as the trade took me by surprise as well, but like coach says: "It is what it is".
     
  6. JD10367

    JD10367 Practice Squad Player

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    All this here. Except the part about wanting to cry. :)
     
  7. Frezo

    Frezo In the Starting Line-Up

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    #50 Jersey

    ...and the part about the Raiders offering a 2011 1st rounder. That was BB's demand.
     
  8. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I am well aware of what happened with Milloy and the fire the team was after that..an inferno..in two years time...two Lombardis.
    But with Milloy, the story was known...salary cap issues..didn't want to lower the cap number so cut..fairly easy in some ways..but zippo here..really..
     
  9. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar In the Starting Line-Up

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    No Jersey Selected

    I think you're reading too much into it. After all the obvious and sound reasons why they would trade Seymour and the way that BB and the Pats handle the organization within their business model and to simply quote the master himself, "is what it is."
     
  10. borg

    borg In the Starting Line-Up

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    Trims payroll
    Recoups draft pick
    Eliminates distraction
    Lights a fire
     
  11. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Not sure that is clouding his thoughts..he hates the trade..but I think that MAY be influenced by that..but I think this odd feeling about it might be something different.
     
  12. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think Dale and Holley are looking for something that isn't there. This is not really an unprescidented move. Belichick has cut bait with marquee players before on the eve of season (although there was something more with Branch). Belichick has also done a massive overhaul of the defense before when he was upset with the previous year's results (see 2003 when he turned over the secondary and temporarily demoted Ted Johnson).
     
  13. Spiral

    Spiral PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Since the Patriots' beat writers and others get so little information from the front office, you'd expect them to cultivate as many sources among the players as possible. There are probably a lot of cozy relationships between certain players and members of the media. When one of these players gets cut or traded, it is understandable that certain media members would criticize the move. A guy like Holley probably has a number of close contacts on the Patriots.
     
  14. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think the die was cast when they did the 3 year extension. It was for top dollar, but for short term and saved the last rookie year. A compromise of sorts. They tried for years to reel this guy all in. Just never happened. Hell, Kraft took him on the Israel trip a couple of years ago. They wanted him to be the kind of franchise player they are willing to invest in long term, like Brady. It's just not who Richard is. He's thin skinned. He's leery of management (something Lawyer taught him to be). On some level he bristles at the idea of the system being the prime component in the dynasty.

    I think what Warren said today was the deciding factor. Richard had been harping on this since the end of last season, his feeling he was going to be dealt. Bill has a lot of real promising youngsters on this defense. He wants them to form a new core. He decided during camps and the pre season that he had enough DL depth to pull a Seymour deal off. He had improved the secondary sufficiently and Brady is back. Bill did what he could because he could.

    He doesn't hate Seymour any more than he did Lawyer. Disappointed maybe because he actually loved these guys, they were his football matters guys (or so he thought). But it is what it is and Bill reacts accordingly. A lot of people mistake his ability to subtract the emotion from the equation for him not having any. I think the Bruschi PC put that to rest. He loves and respects football players, particularly those who are all in for winning. Those who aren't, irrespective of talent, he moves them a year early rather than a year late, if the opportunity presents itself (be that cap savings, opening up a spot for a youngster, trading them for a first...). Just like he does with the guy who has lost a step he can't cover for or otherwise justify (Vrabel as opposed to Tedy).

    Faulk was just on and judging by his brief comments Richard is working through the shock of reality. As he said, he's just got to pull it together and move on...this team will. I think he was always the guy who quietly talked tough but really just wanted a hug. Bill's not a hugger, at least until you retire. He's self motivated and he demands that from his players. Prove you can do that and he'll hug you plenty when it's all over.
     
  15. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Dale and Holley had to fill 4 hours of talk radio...
     
  16. Jimke

    Jimke In the Starting Line-Up

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    Seymour has been strangely silent this training camp. The last

    time his contract was about to expire, he held out until he received

    a salary adjustment. What better time to ask for an adjustment or

    demand that the Patriots agree (in writing) not to franchise him next

    year? The season is only one week away and the Patriots might back

    down like last time.
     
  17. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    :yeahthat:

    Some very thoughtful analysis here. Better the the hysteria in many other Seymour threads.
     
  18. spacecrime

    spacecrime Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    was it quick? Not saying it wasn't, but I assumed the Pats and Raiders talked a while before pulling the trigger. How can we tell if it was quick or something BB had been considering for a long time?
     
  19. hwc

    hwc In the Starting Line-Up

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    Exactly. I don't understand why anyone finds this trade surprising. It's a pretty simple equation:

    Would you rather rent Seymour for one year at a somewhat below market rate of $4 million salary and put up with the headache of his free agency/franchise/hold out circus at the end of the year? Or would you rather have a high first round draft pick in the 2011 draft?

    Both options have value. You could argue it either way. The Raiders had a little sweetener because they probably think they have a shot at signing him to an extention. The Pats have a little sweetener because tradiing him to the Raiders sends a clear message that they are no longer going to play the whole hold out for free agency game.

    I don't think it's a hard deal to figure out at all. We had one of the worst defenses in the NFL last year. In plain English, the defense stunk and that means nobody's roster spot was safe. Obviously, Belichick was not going to stand pat with a losing hand.
     
  20. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    The one viable question that Felger and Maz are asking is "why not let him play out this year then Franchise and Trade him".

    It's a good question with viable possibilities :

    - They may be planning to Franchise (and trade or not trade) Wilfork and they can't Franchise both.

    - They may have struggled to find a market for a Franchised Cassel and may expect the same for a Franchised Seymour.

    - They may have promised in the past not to Franchise Seymour (no evidence of this but possible).

    - Seymour may have quietly said he was going to sit out starting today without a No Franchise promise (no evidence of this but possible).

    It's a viable and interesting question whose answer we'll likely never know.
     
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