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D giving up 2 + more points per game than SB D in '04??

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by RhodyPatriot, Dec 7, 2009.

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  1. RhodyPatriot

    RhodyPatriot Rookie

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    WOW!! I could not believe it when Steve DeOssie came out with that stat today. Very interesting and it backs up my assertion that it's the offense who is the real culprit with this 7 - 5 team. Nobody is saying this is anything but an adequate (by today's NFL standards) D at best but they've been hung out to dry in quite a few games this year by an O that goes to sleep in the 2nd half of games.
    DeOssie also had an interesting point in saying that there are no great defenses in the NFL this year and the teams that max out their O's will be the most successful, i.e. Indy, NO, Minn etc.
  2. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I was thinking about that second point last night. There really isn't a dominating defense this season. Specifically, I can't think of any dominating cornerbacks.
  3. PatsFaninME

    PatsFaninME Rookie

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    Not sure that I agree with the premise that this D if even average but I do agree that the offese has to carry this team if they're to go anywhere this season. I think the offensive playcalling has got to improve. For that matter, so does the D playalling. Did anyone else feel that something good happened every time the Pats rushed more than 3-4 guys.

    Let all the haters go away because the bus was too crowded with them anyway. I'd love for Pats to be written off come playoff time. Giants proved in '07 that a team can get "hot" and win without being the best team. We just need our O to get hot and our D to continue to improve.

    Let's remember that lasst year most of us (me included) were saying they were old and slow and needed to get younger and faster. Not many teams can go 7-5 (and I believe they'll finish 11-5) and win there division during such a transition phase.
  4. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1.) The offense is still winning the TOP battle, leaving the defense on the field for fewer minutes. It's just not converting in, or near, the red zone, and that's been the difference in every loss but one.

    2.) The Patriots have played a lot of lousy offenses.
  5. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot Rookie

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    Thank you. Against good offenses, they struggle. In game winning situations outside of the miracle against the Ravens, well lets not talk about that.

    This defense is so overrated it's freaking ridiculous. If I hear one more stupid "re-building" excuse from someone I'm gonna slam my head in the monitor cuz I've heard that talk since 2005 and it isn't getting better.

    That said, this OL is killing this team. They really need to fix the right side.
  6. DougFlutie

    DougFlutie Banned

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    The Patriots have played horrible Bucs and Titans defenses which have skewed their offensive stats. The Patriots were shut down by two rookie Colts corners in the 2nd half. The Patriots offense was shut down by a Saints defense missing 2 starting corners and with 1 starting safety who signed a week before.

    In the 5 losses the offense has averaged 3.5 points in the 2nd half.

    In the past 27 minutes of the Dolphins game the Patriots offense scored 0 points.


    The offense is largely responsible for most of this 7-5 team's 5 losses.
  7. RhodyPatriot

    RhodyPatriot Rookie

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    1) TOP is so misleading. WHEN is the Patriots offense dominating in TOP?
    In the 4th quarter when the D needs some help?? Nope!!!
    They dominated TOP in the Dolphins game in the 1st quarter and did nothing after that.
    Take the Colts game.
    The D forced Peyton Manning into 7 punts and 2 INT's.
    Problem was Peyton Manning was allowed FOURTEEN possessions. 14!!
    This Patriot offense did not use ball control to manage the clock thus keeping Manning on the sidelines in the 4th quarter.
    The D ran literally out of defensive front bodies in the 4th quarter and needed the O to burn some clock.
    Did it happen? Nope!
    TOP is important in the 4th quarter when trying to close out a game.
    The Patriots have been awful against the good teams.

    2) What kind of offenses did the '04 Pats face?? Anyone as good as Brees and these Saints??
  8. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    Revis says hi. He shut down Moss and TO basically.
  9. Deus Irae

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    See, this is the sort of ignorance that must be stomped out. The defense made Chad Henne look like Peyton Manning, and you're *****ing about the offense. It's been a team failing all season long.

    Now, since you were banned, why are you here?
  10. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    2 points is a significant dropoff, but it's not bad considering offense is supposed to be a clear strength on this team now. Aside from the NO loss and partially the Colts loss, the offense and it's 2nd half ineptitude has been the culprit. And why do people keep bringing up the supposed weak opponents? That's how it is every year... you face some good teams and you face alot of bad teams. So we faced awesome teams week in week out in 2004? :confused:
  11. Deus Irae

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    We bring it up because we've seen the crap the Patriots have faced. Sanchez twice, Henne twice, a Titans team with a QB who had one of the worst games in NFL history, Mr. Johnson for the Buccaneers, Trent Edwards and the Bills... that's a smorgasbord of suck.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  12. DougFlutie

    DougFlutie Banned

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    The offensive stats are misleading. Even now this offense is top-5 in the league in average points per game. It is misleading.

    Dig a little deeper and find that this team averages 3.5 points in the 2nd half of this team's 5 losses.

    Exactly.

    Giving the opponent 14 different possessions is incredible. It is Bledsoe-esque in getting tons of 3-and-outs and leaving your defense out to dry.
  13. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    Meanwhile other teams are facing powerhouses such as Brady Quinn, Jamarcus Russel, Matt Cassel (sorry), Jason Campbell, Kyle Boller, Jay Cutler the fraud, whoever Atlanta's backup is, the list goes on and on. What's your point, there are alot of bad teams in the league and every defense benefits from it.
  14. Deus Irae

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    How does "every team benefits" impact my point? The Patriots defense has been artificially propped up by playing terrible offenses and, even there, its problems have been easy to see for those bothering to look. When it's played quality offenses, it's gotten waxed.
  15. RhodyPatriot

    RhodyPatriot Rookie

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    The ignorance is yours.
    Chad Peyton Manning Henne scored a whopping 22 points against this Patriot D, a Patriots D that was left on the field all game long in warm Miami by this impotent O. The Patriots offense scored a whopping 21 points (7 points in the last 3 quarters) against the Steel Curtain....err I mean this average Miami Dolphin defense.
    The shear blindness of so many Patriot fans is embarrassing.
    Is it the star power or binky love that prevents so many from justifiably calling out the O??
  16. cmasspatsfan

    cmasspatsfan Rookie

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    We can analyze the offense and defense to death but this team has lost all but one game by a small margin and thats because no one stepped up and made that play that gets us over the top, in fact thyey've been making mistakes at the wrong time when a big play should be made. Ill admit most of that time its been the offense that hasnt come up with that play.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  17. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When your offense is so bad that it scores only 3.5 points a game in the second half, then we need a premier defense like we had in 2004.

  18. Lockdown06

    Lockdown06 Rookie

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    the 2004 team faced such worldbeaters as Josh McCown, Drew Bledsoe/J.P. Losman, AJ Feeley/Jay Fiedler, and either kelly holcomb or luke mccown, I can't remember who started for the browns by that game in 04
  19. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    Because it shows that it's just the norm to play alot of bad offenses, so why just hold it against THIS defense only? Go back and look at the QB's/offenses the 2004 team played and you can formulate a list similar to the one you posted. It's a senseless point/list when both defenses have faced some crap QB's.
  20. Deus Irae

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    You're equating the points scored with how Henne looked. He was 29 of 52 for 335, with 2 TDs.


    Yeah, pimp that "D"!
  21. cmasspatsfan

    cmasspatsfan Rookie

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    Agreed, in fact if we looked into it we may find that the offenses as a whole that we faced this year are better than in 2004.
  22. patriots pam

    patriots pam Rookie

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    Interesting, but I definitely don't think the numbers tell the true story, particularly in comparison to the '04 D. Although, call me crazy, but I'm getting as much, even a little more, than what I expected from the D this year taking into consideration the turnover and youth/inexperience of many of the players. I'm not getting what I expected from the O at this point, particularly in the 2nd half and the two minute drills. With the all the skill and experience on the O, I expected that they would have to, and would be able to, compensate at least adequately for weaknesses in the new D until they could really hold their own. Not so much, it seems. :shrug:

    EDIT: That said...I still have faith in them winning the last four and snapping out of this funk to be strong in the playoffs. Maybe that's the crazy thinking on my part? :D WORK IT OUT, GUYS!!
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  23. Deus Irae

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    This has been an extremely poor bunch of offenses, that's why.
  24. Lockdown06

    Lockdown06 Rookie

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    By the end of the season, the 2004 team's strength of schedule was 17th of strength of schedule - not the easiest, but certainly not extremely hard.

    I don't know what the numbers are now, but the start the 09 season, we had the 3rd hardest strength of schedule this year.

    Both the offense and the defense have underwhelmed this year, I just think that relative to expectations, the offense is the bigger culprit
  25. 12to81

    12to81 Rookie

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    The big difference in that year is that we actually got the job done when it mattered, and finished the job.
  26. DougFlutie

    DougFlutie Banned

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    Going into the Patriots game the Dolphins were giving up 25 points per game.

    The explosive Patriots offense scored 0 points in the last 27 minutes, for a total of 22 points against this Dolphins team.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  27. Lockdown06

    Lockdown06 Rookie

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    I agree with you, I think the 2004 team was incredible, and probably my favorite pats team of this decade, I'm just pointing out some of the teams they had to face.

    Also, while it is certainly looking bleak, I'm not counting this year's version of the pats out of it til they've mathematically eliminated themselves. Crazier things have happened than this talented but erratic team pulling themselves together and making some noise in a month
  28. Deus Irae

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    I completely agree with this, based largely upon the offense's struggles within the opponents' red zone, and putting in the "What did you really expect from Brady?" asterisk, but that's not what the head-in-the-sand crowd is trying to claim. They're actually trying to claim that this defense is a good or average defense when it's neither.

    I love statistics, but they have to be looked at in context.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  29. DougFlutie

    DougFlutie Banned

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    Looking at both units in context, both are top 5 in terms of points scored or points against. Yet both are horrible in the red zone. This suggests coordinator problems on both sides of the ball, and that the talent is actually very good.
  30. Deus Irae

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    No, Maverick, it doesn't suggest that at all.
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