Cut off your nose to spite your face

[R_T26]

The thing is DB, these boards are intended for debate, not just your opinion and blind homerism. uncle bob hit it on the nose, the Pats never went into the offseason expecting childress and caldwell to start week one, no matter how you spin it. What the Pats did this offseason was like going to a poker game with plant of chips, and kept folding. Sometimes you have to adjust your strategy to make things work out. what do you think brady thinks of all this, his top 2 recievers are gone, and the team still has plenty of cap space.

 

[mgteich]

What you don't seem to understand is that many of us don't care about Branch at all. We just want to have a decent starting wide receiver. bb can do what he wants to make an example of Branch. The open question is why haven't we picked up a decent starter. Jackson is fine for next year to replace Troy. We already went bargain basement for our #2 in Caldwell, maybe a decent pickup. But the free agent market wasn't a surprise to pioli. What we see right now is the result of a lot of FO work over the last few months. The result is Caldwell and Childress starting.

How would you have felt if we said in May that bb and pioli would start these two, counting on Troy in the slot? and maybe a scrub JAG like Kight available in case of injury. We would have said NO WAY or WTF or called the poster a moron.

Well here we are a couple of weeks from the start of the season with the pats looking around for a WR or two. Pioli may act by Game 2, or not and say "Gee whiz, the prices were just too high" We''ll use the cap money for roster bonuses giving us a zillion cap dollars in 2007. Pass the koolaid and toast our future pro-bowl wideouts: Caldwell and Childress.

If the other guys don't get signed, then that is THEIR choice. How I react to them will depend on whether they bargained in good faith or if they were morons like Deion Branch.

sheesh!

Yes, the Pats can move money around and have plenty of cap space. But what you seem to not understand is that, at some point, you have to pay the piper as the Pats did in 2004 when they didn't have the space to sign injury replacements and basically went the last half of the year with only Light and Gorin as their OTs. Do you really want to be in a similar situation? Its obvious to me that the Patriots don't.

What is so hard to understand about the Patriots position? They attempted to bargain in good faith only to have it thrown back in their faces and be dis-respected. Why should they up their offer to Branch when Branch's stance is that he's worth 8-9 million and more than Reggie Wayne when Branch has been injured more than Wayne, has never had a 1000 yard season the way Wayne has, and has never had more than 5 TDs the way Wayne has?

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

If it was ONLY about this one contract, I would tend to agree with you.

However, overpaying for Branch would only encourage other players to demand to be overpayed and hold out unless they get what they want.

Therein lies the point of the original poster.

The Pats have decided to employ their value system and not risk blowing it out of whack by overpaying for a player. The problem is, it's a bussiness, run by greedy agents who get a % of the contract that they negotiate for their player clients. So naturally they are going to push for more $ for their clients. Such a system inevitably means potential conflict down the road for certain players who feel that they are being underpaid. The result? You get ugly battles such as the one we saw with Milloy, with Law, with Seymour, with Vinatieri and now with Branch and lord knows how many more Pats players in the not too distant future. The Pats have made their bed this way and they now need to sleep in it.

My gut feeling is this can all wrok out well but the Pats must a) do a much better job of protecting themselves from unreasonable agents who risk messing up the team by holding them hostage (by forcing a Caldwell/Childress starting WR tandem on the team) with unrealistic contract demands/holdouts b) keep winning SB's.

 

[DESERTPAT]

Of course they are good with the cap, but I'll be honest, i would rather have Branch then practice squad players. The teams are gonna get tougher, the games will get tougher and i dont want to have to rely on Caldwell or Childress to make that critical 1st down catch. And the Pats are like 35 million under for next year. Sure they are going to sign koppen, Samual, and graham, just like we couldnt sign woody because andruzzi was coming up, just like we couldnt sign Av, willie, and givens because branch and Seymour was up, now we cant sign branch becuse graham, koppen, and samual are up.
next year it will be we cant sign graham, koppen, and samual, because warren and wilson are coming up. At this rate, enjoy maroney and jackson because they will be gone in 4 years.

Ok lets just resign everybody every year next thing you know you have a team full of fat and happy's cashing their checks and not giving a damn if they win another title. We really miss Andruzzi and Woody don't we, not to mention Law, Milloy and Bledsoe. Bill has said that you can't fall in love with any player and I think he knows what he's talking about. Does anyone remember Yaz being allowed to hold on till he hit some homerun milestone even though he should have retired 5 years earlier before he hit into 600 double plays. There are some people on this board that wouldn't understand football and football players on the pee wee level coming on like they are experts on all things football. Three titles in five years and in the running for more so stfu.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

Ok lets just resign everybody every year next thing you know you have a team full of fat and happy's cashing their checks and not giving a damn if they win another title. We really miss Andruzzi and Woody don't we, not to mention Law, Milloy and Bledsoe. Bill has said that you can't fall in love with any player and I think he knows what he's talking about. Does anyone remember Yaz being allowed to hold on till he hit some homerun milestone even though he should have retired 5 years earlier before he hit into 600 double plays. There are some people on this board that wouldn't understand football and football players on the pee wee level coming on like they are experts on all things football. Three titles in five years and in the running for more so stfu.

I don't think you needed to personalize things to the STFU degree that you did to the poster.

Let me ask you a question. Answer truthfully. What good does winning 3 of the past 5 SB's do to our starting WR situation for this year?

 

[DESERTPAT]

I don't think you needed to personalize things to the STFU degree that you did to the poster.

Let me ask you a question. Answer truthfully. What good does winning 3 of the past 5 SB's do to our starting WR situation for this year?

Thank you for proving my point!

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

Thank you for proving my point!

And your answer is ...........

 

[DESERTPAT]

And your answer is ...........

"There are some people" get the hint?

 

[SoonerPatriot]

What you don't seem to understand is that many of us don't care about Branch at all. We just want to have a decent starting wide receiver. bb can do what he wants to make an example of Branch. The open question is why haven't we picked up a decent starter. Jackson is fine for next year to replace Troy. We already went bargain basement for our #2 in Caldwell, maybe a decent pickup. But the free agent market wasn't a surprise to pioli. What we see right now is the result of a lot of FO work over the last few months. The result is Caldwell and Childress starting.

How would you have felt if we said in May that bb and pioli would start these two, counting on Troy in the slot? and maybe a scrub JAG like Kight available in case of injury. We would have said NO WAY or WTF or called the poster a moron.

Well here we are a couple of weeks from the start of the season with the pats looking around for a WR or two. Pioli may act by Game 2, or not and say "Gee whiz, the prices were just too high" We''ll use the cap money for roster bonuses giving us a zillion cap dollars in 2007. Pass the koolaid and toast our future pro-bowl wideouts: Caldwell and Childress.

That really is the bottom line to me and you nailed it. Here were are and it's August and it's Caldwell and Childress starting.

But....but...but....we did it in 2001 with no-name guys, we can do it again! Maybe some of the dumbest, infantile logic ever put into cyberspace.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

"There are some people" get the hint?

I must be a little off today. Can you elaborate some for me please

 

[Pats726]

What you don't seem to understand is that many of us don't care about Branch at all. We just want to have a decent starting wide receiver. bb can do what he wants to make an example of Branch. The open question is why haven't we picked up a decent starter. Jackson is fine for next year to replace Troy. We already went bargain basement for our #2 in Caldwell, maybe a decent pickup. But the free agent market wasn't a surprise to pioli. What we see right now is the result of a lot of FO work over the last few months. The result is Caldwell and Childress starting.

How would you have felt if we said in May that bb and pioli would start these two, counting on Troy in the slot? and maybe a scrub JAG like Kight available in case of injury. We would have said NO WAY or WTF or called the poster a moron.

Well here we are a couple of weeks from the start of the season with the pats looking around for a WR or two. Pioli may act by Game 2, or not and say "Gee whiz, the prices were just too high" We''ll use the cap money for roster bonuses giving us a zillion cap dollars in 2007. Pass the koolaid and toast our future pro-bowl wideouts: Caldwell and Childress.

Firstly...according to the calander it's NOT opening day..and even if it were, I do not think the Patriots would go much into the season without making a move for a WR. Why haven't the Pats picked up a WR?? I think they thought that Branch would be signed by now...again a calculated move..but they also thought 1---Branch would honor his contract as he said he would in April 2---That he would be reasonable in negotiations and would accept a fair contract. Neither has happened. Given that and this situation, I believe they are looking for Branch to come to his senses...and have NOT made a move becaus eof that. They want Branch and are waiting for him to get to camp OR to trade him and move on and make moves. This is a the reason they did this; perfect timing.

 

[jimmyjames]

I don't think you needed to personalize things to the STFU degree that you did to the poster.

Let me ask you a question. Answer truthfully. What good does winning 3 of the past 5 SB's do to our starting WR situation for this year?

I don't agree in telling people to STFU, but the fact that they have won three of five gives me a little faith in the FO of this team that they are making the best LONG TERM decisions for this team. Can they win this year without Branch? Who knows, but I am willing to bet they are competitive, and that's all I ask.

If you want to go back to cheering for a Grogan or Fryar making a meaninless play on a 3-13 team filled with scrubs becuase he is your sentimental hero that's fine. But in my opinion it has never been more fun to be a Patriots fan than over the last 5 years when this franchise has been winning and you knew that going into every game they had a chance. If the downside is that we have to part ways with some guys over money in order to keep the team competitve for years to come I am willing to accept that.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

I don't agree in telling people to STFU, but the fact that they have won three of five gives me a little faith in the FO of this team that they are making the best LONG TERM decisions for this team. Can they win this year without Branch? Who knows, but I am willing to bet they are competitive, and that's all I ask.

To each his own but I'm spoiled and want a SB win not just a competitve team. It would be a damn shame that this Sb ready team suffers added losses this year which knocks them out of SB contention because they errored in securing the WR spot adequately.

BTW. I have no problem giving the Pats braintrust the benefit of the doubt. But don't think for a second that winning those 3 SB's automatically means that the Pats braintrust can't be wrong.

 

[DaBruinz]

The thing is DB, these boards are intended for debate, not just your opinion and blind homerism. uncle bob hit it on the nose, the Pats never went into the offseason expecting childress and caldwell to start week one, no matter how you spin it. What the Pats did this offseason was like going to a poker game with plant of chips, and kept folding. Sometimes you have to adjust your strategy to make things work out. what do you think brady thinks of all this, his top 2 recievers are gone, and the team still has plenty of cap space.

I know that these boards are intended for debate. However, you need to be willing to use facts when you attempt to engage in the debate. Not unfounded opinions.

What blind homerism? Where did I say that the Pats went into the off-season expecting to have Childress and Caldwell as the starters? You and BMU need to realize that YOUR opinions are the only ones out there and, in fact, are pretty flawed.l

The reality is that the Patriots don't NEED to adjust their strategy because its tried and proven. They made an honest effort to re-sign Givens and only the ineptitude of the Titans management kept Givens from coming back to the Patriots. Givens is not a #1 receiver. He's a #2/#3 receiver who disappears for weeks on end. And, he supposedly led the league in drops last year with 9.

The Patriots made an honest effort to re-sign Branch after the season ended. Branch re-buffed their offer and no counter was made. The Pats tried again in May and Branch again, re-buffed their offer and no counter was made. In fact, Branch basically told the Patriots to F**K off with his hold-out garbage. Had Branch and Chayut actually attempted to negotiate, then I have no doubt that Branch would be in camp. Unfortunately, Branch and his agent chose NOT to negotiate.

Why should the Patriots pay a player who has to be coddled to stay on the field ELITE receiver money when the player is NOT an ELITE receiver?

 

[DESERTPAT]

I don't agree in telling people to STFU, but the fact that they have won three of five gives me a little faith in the FO of this team that they are making the best LONG TERM decisions for this team. Can they win this year without Branch? Who knows, but I am willing to bet they are competitive, and that's all I ask.

If you want to go back to cheering for a Grogan or Fryar making a meaninless play on a 3-13 team filled with scrubs becuase he is your sentimental hero that's fine. But in my opinion it has never been more fun to be a Patriots fan than over the last 5 years when this franchise has been winning and you knew that going into every game they had a chance. If the downside is that we have to part ways with some guys over money in order to keep the team competitve for years to come I am willing to accept that.

I withdraw my stfu, uncalled for...but the rest stands

 

[DaBruinz]

What you don't seem to understand is that many of us don't care about Branch at all. We just want to have a decent starting wide receiver.

I understand that just fine, MG. That is what I would have wanted also. And we HAD a decent starting WR. However, that WR is the one who decided to be a piece of garbage liar and hold out after he said he would honor his contract. There is NOTHING BB or Pioli can do about that.

Reche Caldwell has been a starter and was well on his way to becoming a quality starter before he was injured in 2004. Is he a question mark? Yes. But less of a one than anything behind him other than Troy Brown. Also, BB made an effort to replace Givens by selecting Chad Brown in the draft.

Why is it that people act like BB and Pioli have tried to shore up the WR position when they have.

bb can do what he wants to make an example of Branch. The open question is why haven't we picked up a decent starter. Jackson is fine for next year to replace Troy. We already went bargain basement for our #2 in Caldwell, maybe a decent pickup. But the free agent market wasn't a surprise to pioli. What we see right now is the result of a lot of FO work over the last few months. The result is Caldwell and Childress starting.

Again, MG, what decent starter is out there that hasn't signed? Az-Hakim and Kevin Johnson are re-habbing injuries. The Pats attempted to get Jurevicius, Finneran, and Moulds and couldn't because other teams insisted on being irresponsible with their cap money.

How would you have felt if we said in May that bb and pioli would start these two, counting on Troy in the slot? and maybe a scrub JAG like Kight available in case of injury. We would have said NO WAY or WTF or called the poster a moron.

Why are you acting like I said anything of the sort? Because some other poster made that ludicrous accusation? Something that he can't prove because I never said such a thing?

Also, MG, If Branch wasn't being an arse and Jackson was healthy, this wouldn't even be an issue. BMU and you seem to be making a huge assumption that BB should have know that Branch would hold-out and that Jackson would be injured. I didn't realize that BB was supposed to turn into Ms. Cleo and be able to see the future.

Well here we are a couple of weeks from the start of the season with the pats looking around for a WR or two. Pioli may act by Game 2, or not and say "Gee whiz, the prices were just too high" We''ll use the cap money for roster bonuses giving us a zillion cap dollars in 2007. Pass the koolaid and toast our future pro-bowl wideouts: Caldwell and Childress.

Man, you really have gone off the deep end, MG. Where did you come up with all the BS? I would expect this junk from someone who was absolutely clueless, not a well respected poster like yourself.

All I am saying is that putting the blame on BB & Pioli for Branch holding out and for Jackson being injured is saying that they have the ability to see the future and they should have know that it would happen. I disagree. There is only so much money to go around and the Patriots have it budgeted a particular way to help for the future as well as now. I fully support the Patriots NOT over-paying guys like Jurevicius, Branch and Givens. While I don't like the fact that Caldwell and Brown are our starters currently, the situation is no worse than in 2001 when the Patriots had Brown and no-name Patten starting for them.

There are players who will become available. Including those who are coming back from inury. I think that Kevin Johnson, once healthy, could be a very intriguing signing.

 

[DaBruinz]

That really is the bottom line to me and you nailed it. Here were are and it's August and it's Caldwell and Childress starting.

But....but...but....we did it in 2001 with no-name guys, we can do it again! Maybe some of the dumbest, infantile logic ever put into cyberspace.

Another person who ignorantly believes that Belichick and Pioli should be able to see the future.

We'd be in the same position now if Branch had torn his ACL at the beginning of camp? Then what?

People, the situation is what it is. The Pats were lied to by Deion Branch when he said he would honor his contract whether or not he got his extension. The Pats drafted Chad Jackson and signed Reche Caldwell. Along with Troy and Bam Childress, that SHOULD have given the Pats a solid receiving corps. Its only because of Jackson's hamstring pull and Branch holding out that the Pats are in the situation they are in currently.

Does anyone HONESTLY believe that if BB and Pioli could see the future that they would have let it get this far?

I certainly don't. However, I also know they can't see the future.

 

[DaBruinz]

To each his own but I'm spoiled and want a SB win not just a competitve team. It would be a damn shame that this Sb ready team suffers added losses this year which knocks them out of SB contention because they errored in securing the WR spot adequately.

BTW. I have no problem giving the Pats braintrust the benefit of the doubt. But don't think for a second that winning those 3 SB's automatically means that the Pats braintrust can't be wrong.

The Pats brainturst can be wrong and they are far from perfect. However, I can guarantee you one thing. They can not see the future. They can make calculted risks (Drafting Chad Jackson and signing Reche Caldwell)and take people at their word (Deion Branch saying that he would honor his contract).

BB and Pioli are mere mortals. They make mistakes and can not see the future. If they could see the future, I am sure they would have done many things differently during their tenure.

 

[RI Pats Fan]

Good thread, R_T26

Mgteich, I liked your point. I don't care who it is, I just want a decent WR out there even if he's a "#2 guy"

 

[Seymour93]

We have other players to spend that money on Koppen, Graham, Samuel.

If I had to choose between keeping either Branch, Koppen, or Samuel, I would pick Branch.

So the general thought is don't overspend on Branch, which I agree with, but since there's not very much talent out there in FA at WR then just stick put with what we have. That sucks IMO. Hopefully we can get a decent WR in return for Deion, the prick.