Cut off your nose to spite your face

[Bobs My Uncle]

You would have paid Givens that much? He has yet to catch a pass in preseason, by the way. I would have liked to have gotten Moulds too. But they had no way to get him. He was traded to the Texans by Buffalo. He was not a free agent. Keyshawn Johnson is not the kind of player BB wants on the team so they didn't go after him.

Right now I'd have paid David Givens twice what the Titans paid him so that we don't have to enter the season with Caldwell and Childress or the 70 years old Troy Brown as out starting WR's.

I would imagine anyone in here would take just about ANY free agent (or easily attainable) WR that was available this offseason over Caldwell and Childress if this were May. I can't imagine anyone, back in May, would have said "I want to see Caldwell and Childres as out starting WR's come Sept"

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

David Givens is not worth the contract he got.
Eric Moulds was traded to the Texans if I remember correctly.
How do you know the Patriots didn't attempt to sign Keyshawn? And is Keyshawn worth the 4 years $19 million he got?

ALL of those players are better than Caldwell and Childress

You want "worth" What good is having all of this cap money if we line up Caldwell and Childres as our WR's?

 

[TNPatsFan]

ALL of those players are better than Caldwell and Childress

You want "worth" What good is having all of this cap money if we line up Caldwell and Childres as our WR's?

I'm not saying the current WR roster is a good one. But there just isn't much out there now worth spending the money on. As a matter of fact there wasn't much to spend it on back in March either. Joe Jurivicius? Antwan Randle El? Ugh. Instead, they tried to spend the money on Branch who is a better option than any of them. But he didn't want the money. They have no choice now but to make due with what they have and anything that might come available between now and opening day.

 

[DaBruinz]

Of course they are good with the cap, but I'll be honest, i would rather have Branch then practice squad players. The teams are gonna get tougher, the games will get tougher and i dont want to have to rely on Caldwell or Childress to make that critical 1st down catch. And the Pats are like 35 million under for next year. Sure they are going to sign koppen, Samual, and graham, just like we couldnt sign woody because andruzzi was coming up, just like we couldnt sign Av, willie, and givens because branch and Seymour was up, now we cant sign branch becuse graham, koppen, and samual are up.
next year it will be we cant sign graham, koppen, and samual, because warren and wilson are coming up. At this rate, enjoy maroney and jackson because they will be gone in 4 years.

OK, Chicken Little, you clearly don't know what you are talking about in any of these cases.

1) They chose not to sign Woody because he wanted too much money. And, since you have forgotten, Woody had weight issues that he couldn't bring under control. It had NOTHING to do with Andruzzi.

2) We couldn't re-sign AV and McGinest because they wanted too much money. The Patriots attempted to negotiate with them, but they wanted the money. It had nothing to do with Seymour and Branch.

3) Givens chose not to re-sign with the Patriots. He turned down several offers from the Pats. It had nothing to do with signing anyone else.

4) The Patriots can't sign Branch because he is an egotistical liar who thinks that his success had nothing to do with the rest of the team. He believes that he is an ELITE #1 receiver, when, at best he is a good #2 receiver who has been pressed into #1 duty. Its Branch's greed and his moron agent that is keeping him from being on the Patriots. Not the Patriots. Or do you think that the 5 year/$31 million offer with $11 million bonus isn't good enough? That is the offer that Branch turned down. As well as the 3 year contract extension the Pats offered.

People who sit there and blame this all on the management of the Patriots really don't have a clue as to the business side of the NFL and how the Patriots obviously approach things.

 

[DaBruinz]

Right now I'd have paid David Givens twice what the Titans paid him so that we don't have to enter the season with Caldwell and Childress or the 70 years old Troy Brown as out starting WR's.

So, in other words, Screw the salary cap and screw being able to pay other people.

Our starting receivers are no worse than they were in 2001. And the situation is only where it is at because Branch and Givens both turned down very good offers from the Patriots.

Why is it that you don't understand that?

I would imagine anyone in here would take just about ANY free agent (or easily attainable) WR that was available this offseason over Caldwell and Childress if this were May. I can't imagine anyone, back in May, would have said "I want to see Caldwell and Childres as out starting WR's come Sept"

Hindsight is 20/20 now isn't it. Its not May and the Patriots tried to negotiate with Branch and his idiot agent only to be re-buffed. The Pats negotiated in good faith with Givens only to have the Titans outbid them.

It happens. Its part of the business. Its disingenuous to pretend that the Patriots haven't attempted to bargain in good faith with people and its totally disrespectful to Pioli and Belichick.

 

[Jacky Roberts]

Branch will prove himself to be a selfish player and look stupid when this is dumb. I'm going to call him "Leon" Branch from now on.

 

[patsfan13]

We have other players to spend that money on Koppen, Graham, Samuel. Branch isn't the only young player we should keep. If we can fromt load Sey's and or Brady's contract to free up room for others in future years, that a good thing.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

People who sit there and blame this all on the management of the Patriots really don't have a clue as to the business side of the NFL and how the Patriots obviously approach things.

Don't tell em what I think.

Here is what I think. Tell me if you agree or not?

I think that BB and Pioli did not approach this offseason believing that they'd be facing the prospects of starting Caldwell and Childress (or a habitually injured rookie WR) as their starting WR's when they face Buffalo to open the season.

If you think they did expect to see Caldwell and Childress (or a habitually injured rookie WR) as their starting WR's then I apologize for wasting your time.

In any case, I'm finished talking with you.

 

[DaBruinz]

ALL of those players are better than Caldwell and Childress

You want "worth" What good is having all of this cap money if we line up Caldwell and Childres as our WR's?

All what cap money? Do you even know what you are talking about? It doesn't seem like it.

The Patriots are less than 12.5 million under the cap currently. They have a 6.66 million bonus going to Seymour at some point and the thinking is that the Pats want to pay him it as a Roster Bonus, not a signing bonus. That way they take the entire hit this year and don't have to spread it out.

Now, that leaves the Pats with approximately 5.9 million. Of that 5.9 million, they need to put 2-3 million aside for the #52 & #53 roster spots, any players on reserve lists, and the 8 person practice squad. That leaves between 2-3 million for signings during the year. It was only back in 2004 that the Patriots were so tight against the cap that they couldn't sign any quality injury replacements. Do you really want to be in that position again?

Also, Its my belief that once the Branch situation is resolved, the Patriots will then start on contract extensions for Graham, Samuel and Koppen. And that takes money as well.

So, which is it because you can't have it both ways. Either the Pats continue to operate the way they have been or they return to the ways of Booby Grier and Pete Carroll and sign mediocre players to stupid contracts and send us back to the junk heap. Personally, I want they doing business the way they are. They've shown that it works. And its disrespectful to BB and Pioli to pretend otherwise.

 

[R_T26]

4) The Patriots can't sign Branch because he is an egotistical liar who thinks that his success had nothing to do with the rest of the team. He believes that he is an ELITE #1 receiver, when, at best he is a good #2 receiver who has been pressed into #1 duty. Its Branch's greed and his moron agent that is keeping him from being on the Patriots. Not the Patriots. Or do you think that the 5 year/$31 million offer with $11 million bonus isn't good enough? That is the offer that Branch turned down. As well as the 3 year contract extension the Pats offered.

completly hypocritical. if a dolphin fan came here and said that deion was just an average reciever, you would say how branch is a great reciever but since brady spreads the ball around he doesnt put up good numbers. Fine Deion is a decent #2, who just happend to torch great defenses in the playoffs when we needed him the most. Funny ho when the games got bigger Deion rose to the occasion. i guess you hate seymour too because he held out. we all love BB/Pioli but I also like the players who were on the field winning championships.

 

[Pats726]

OK, Chicken Little, you clearly don't know what you are talking about in any of these cases.

1) They chose not to sign Woody because he wanted too much money. And, since you have forgotten, Woody had weight issues that he couldn't bring under control. It had NOTHING to do with Andruzzi.

2) We couldn't re-sign AV and McGinest because they wanted too much money. The Patriots attempted to negotiate with them, but they wanted the money. It had nothing to do with Seymour and Branch.

3) Givens chose not to re-sign with the Patriots. He turned down several offers from the Pats. It had nothing to do with signing anyone else.

4) The Patriots can't sign Branch because he is an egotistical liar who thinks that his success had nothing to do with the rest of the team. He believes that he is an ELITE #1 receiver, when, at best he is a good #2 receiver who has been pressed into #1 duty. Its Branch's greed and his moron agent that is keeping him from being on the Patriots. Not the Patriots. Or do you think that the 5 year/$31 million offer with $11 million bonus isn't good enough? That is the offer that Branch turned down. As well as the 3 year contract extension the Pats offered.

People who sit there and blame this all on the management of the Patriots really don't have a clue as to the business side of the NFL and how the Patriots obviously approach things.

You are so right...This is a brilliant move by the Patriots to get Branch and his agent who have been claiming he's worth so so much that to GO FIND that deal...and get back to reality. So. you think you are worth so much money?? Then good luck to you in finding out HOW much you are worth?? Branch doesn't seem to want to be here..rejecting all offers..so find another team!! Oh...so you are finding no takers?? Inflated value?? I think Branch signs within a week.. As far as all this cap space goes..there is the Seymour contract and how much that will take. Complaining about WRs?? I think the Patriots have had a window and they hoped Branch will return and have NOT made a move because they want Branch...so now, he either makes a move OR they will move on TO another WR.

 

[14thDragon]

Yes i know know we cant overpay for players, But c'mon now, it seems some fans would rather end the season season with the most cap space then get talent to win a SB. We still have red zone problems, and despite a solid performance from the offense thus far, it wasnt exactly against world beaters. Childress and Caldwell wont set the world on fire. What is this cap space for. i remember hearing Jonathan kraft 2 weeks ago saying how the Pats were not that thrilled with the salary cap boost but they agreed for labor peace. Is it maybe that the Krafts feel spending 20 million more then they did last year too much. When does it end. I though we were not signing Givens because we had to sign branch, now branch may be headed out of town. if they are not paying Free agents and not paying their own, the franchise better keep winning or the perception around the league will quickly become negative.

Wait until a bit later. I am sure you will see quite a large amount of the bank roll go to Richard Seymour (we paid him after all.)

Then more go to Graham, Samuel, and Koppen. You know, players that actually want to play for this team.

Then maybe if there is some of the reseve left over, maybe TBC gets a few incentive dollars.

 

[DaBruinz]

Don't tell em what I think.

Here is what I think. Tell me if you agree or not?

I think that BB and Pioli did not approach this offseason believing that they'd be facing the prospects of starting Caldwell and Childress (or a habitually injured rookie WR) as their starting WR's when they face Buffalo to open the season.

If you think they did expect to see Caldwell and Childress (or a habitually injured rookie WR) as their starting WR's then I apologize for wasting your time.

In any case, I'm finished talking with you.

1st off, BB and Pioli approached this off-season like they always do. To spend smartly and add quality players for the price that the Pats are willing to pay.

2ndly, BB and Pioli were probably shocked at Jason Chayuts handling of Deion Branch's contract negotiations. Can you honestly sit there and say that you KNEW that Chayut would have Branch hold-out? Especially after Branch made the "I'm a man and I will honor my contract whether or not I have an extension" speech?

3rd, BB and Pioli had no idea what their starting WRs would look like for the Buffalo game back in March when the off-season started. They did know who they had under contract and who they didn't have under contract. They also had their list of players they wanted to sign. Obviously, Caldwell was on that list. And Givens was too. However, the Titans grossly over-paid for Givens.

4th, It was pretty funny that you got asked about all this cap money you claim the Patriots have, yet you can't be bothered to answer about it. You just go off in a huff.

 

[R_T26]

So, which is it because you can't have it both ways. Either the Pats continue to operate the way they have been or they return to the ways of Booby Grier and Pete Carroll and sign mediocre players to stupid contracts and send us back to the junk heap. Personally, I want they doing business the way they are. They've shown that it works. And its disrespectful to BB and Pioli to pretend otherwise.

So what happens if those other guys dont get signed, then what are you going to say. You can move money around and still have plenty of cap space. the season starts in 2 weeks the money snt going anywhere else.

 

[DaBruinz]

completly hypocritical. if a dolphin fan came here and said that deion was just an average reciever, you would say how branch is a great reciever but since brady spreads the ball around he doesnt put up good numbers. Fine Deion is a decent #2, who just happend to torch great defenses in the playoffs when we needed him the most. Funny ho when the games got bigger Deion rose to the occasion. i guess you hate seymour too because he held out. we all love BB/Pioli but I also like the players who were on the field winning championships.

Really? As the games got bigger, Deion rose to the occasion? Why? Because he did his job and ran the routes that BRADY called? OK.

Sorry, Chumly, but you don't know what you are talking about regarding what I think. Since you seem to have been away during all the OTHER Branch threads, I have said that Branch has over-rated himself and that he is definitely NOT a top 15 receiver and doesn't deserve to be paid as such. I've also said that his STATS show him to be a #2 receiver pressed into the #1 role.

Has Deion Branch had some clutch catches? Yes. But then so did J.R. Redmond and Jermaine Wiggins. So did Ricky Proehl.

I was very disappointed in Seymour when he held out. However, Seymour is an ALL-PRO player. Deion Branch is not even close to Seymour's level. Branch is NOT an ELITE receiver. He's not even a Top 15 receiver.

Also, Seymour never lied to the public. Seymour never came out and said that he would be a man and honor his contract only to turn around and hold out. Seymour and his agent were respectful of the Patriots organization and bargained in good faith with the Patriots to get a deal done.

Do you see the differences in the situations?

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

R T26 your remarks are blasphemous and you are hereby excommunicated

from Pats.Com.

Unfortunately, I agree with you. The Pats are trying to make due with

cheap rookie contracts and veterans from other teams willing to play for

minimum salary.

They don't seem to want to sign or re-sign players whose first contract

has expired and are now due big money.

You don't pay Branch the kind of money we wants (9m/year w/12m signing bonus). We offered him a fair contract and he called it an "insult".

Branch has an unrealisted perception of his value and is being greedy. The Patriots are doing what they *almost* alwasys do... sticking to their guns about not OVERPAYING for good players.

 

[DaBruinz]

So what happens if those other guys dont get signed, then what are you going to say. You can move money around and still have plenty of cap space. the season starts in 2 weeks the money snt going anywhere else.

If the other guys don't get signed, then that is THEIR choice. How I react to them will depend on whether they bargained in good faith or if they were morons like Deion Branch.

Yes, the Pats can move money around and have plenty of cap space. But what you seem to not understand is that, at some point, you have to pay the piper as the Pats did in 2004 when they didn't have the space to sign injury replacements and basically went the last half of the year with only Light and Gorin as their OTs. Do you really want to be in a similar situation? Its obvious to me that the Patriots don't.

What is so hard to understand about the Patriots position? They attempted to bargain in good faith only to have it thrown back in their faces and be dis-respected. Why should they up their offer to Branch when Branch's stance is that he's worth 8-9 million and more than Reggie Wayne when Branch has been injured more than Wayne, has never had a 1000 yard season the way Wayne has, and has never had more than 5 TDs the way Wayne has?

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Right now I'd have paid David Givens twice what the Titans paid him so that we don't have to enter the season with Caldwell and Childress or the 70 years old Troy Brown as out starting WR's.

If it was ONLY about this one contract, I would tend to agree with you.

However, overpaying for Branch would only encourage other players to demand to be overpayed and hold out unless they get what they want.

I think they made a mistake giving in to Seymour and that it has contributed to this problem with Branch. You simply cannot pay all your good players top dollar... you will end up have to cut a lot of other really good players.

This situation is not much different (in terms of its impact on our offense) than the Terry Glenn issues in 2001... BB stuck to his guns there and our offense was fine ... although it would have been much better with Glenn playing.

 

[mgteich]

Let's see now Cadlwell and Childress or Jurivicious and Randel El. Ugh???What is your reaction to Caldwell and Childress? unprintable I would think.

I'm not saying the current WR roster is a good one. But there just isn't much out there now worth spending the money on. As a matter of fact there wasn't much to spend it on back in March either. Joe Jurivicius? Antwan Randle El? Ugh. Instead, they tried to spend the money on Branch who is a better option than any of them. But he didn't want the money. They have no choice now but to make due with what they have and anything that might come available between now and opening day.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

I think that the Patriots is over any player and if Branch march we must ourselves make but fragmentation hand grenade that never stops to obtain titles, and I am sure that a weather will be good.

Well, I'm glad we're all clear on that point!