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Cut off your nose to spite your face

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by R_T26, Aug 25, 2006.

  1. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    Yes i know know we cant overpay for players, But c'mon now, it seems some fans would rather end the season season with the most cap space then get talent to win a SB. We still have red zone problems, and despite a solid performance from the offense thus far, it wasnt exactly against world beaters. Childress and Caldwell wont set the world on fire. What is this cap space for. i remember hearing Jonathan kraft 2 weeks ago saying how the Pats were not that thrilled with the salary cap boost but they agreed for labor peace. Is it maybe that the Krafts feel spending 20 million more then they did last year too much. When does it end. I though we were not signing Givens because we had to sign branch, now branch may be headed out of town. if they are not paying Free agents and not paying their own, the franchise better keep winning or the perception around the league will quickly become negative.
  2. TNPatsFan

    TNPatsFan Rookie

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    What exactly would you like them to spend it on?
  3. skri65

    skri65 Rookie

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    The fact is we need to start the season with a solid WR corps. Because Brady is so god damn good at spreading the ball, we will never NEED a spectacular WR corps. Even with our great TE's, we need more then Caldwell and Childress. I think we can get by without Branch. We'll be able to get by, but we wont get as far as we'd like.
  4. Bobs My Uncle

    Bobs My Uncle PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    A WR would be a very good start :eek:
  5. F0nSY

    F0nSY Rookie

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    I think that the Patriots is over any player and if Branch march we must ourselves make but fragmentation hand grenade that never stops to obtain titles, and I am sure that a weather will be good.
  6. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Did you ever stop to think that maybe you don't know the full story? Like the fact that the Patriots have a 6.66 million bonus to pay to Seymour and they will, most likely, pay that out in the form of a roster bonus this year to give them better cap position in the future.

    If it is paid out in the form of a roster bonus, then that is 6.66 million from the 12.5 million under the cap that they are. That would give them LESS than 6 million in free cap space. They need 2-3 million for the #52 & #52 roster spots as well as the 8 practice squadders and the people they've already placed on the IR (Mel Mitchell, Matt Shelton) and any players not in camp (Michael McGrew and Deion Branch). So, that less than 6 million becomes less than 3 million real quick. And the Pats can use that to extend players like Graham, Samuel, or Koppen. Or sign a veteran receiver who gets released.

    BB & Pioli are very good with the cap. Give them the credit they deserve.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2005
  7. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Please let us know WHICH WR. Kevin Johnson who is rehabbing from injury? Az-Hakim who is supposedly also rehabbing from injury?
  8. TNPatsFan

    TNPatsFan Rookie

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    Such as? Ricky Proehl? Kevin Johnson? Don't say Branch. They already offered him 5 years/31 million/11 million guaranteed. So they already tried to spend it there and he didn't want it.
  9. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    The Patriots made what are considered by almost EVERYONE here and in the media and in NFL circles, extremely fair offers to Branch. I don't think they deserve some kind of tarnished rep just b/c #83 and his agent are too stupid to take one of them.
  10. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    R T26 your remarks are blasphemous and you are hereby excommunicated

    from Pats.Com.

    Unfortunately, I agree with you. The Pats are trying to make due with

    cheap rookie contracts and veterans from other teams willing to play for

    minimum salary.

    They don't seem to want to sign or re-sign players whose first contract

    has expired and are now due big money.
  11. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    Of course they are good with the cap, but I'll be honest, i would rather have Branch then practice squad players. The teams are gonna get tougher, the games will get tougher and i dont want to have to rely on Caldwell or Childress to make that critical 1st down catch. And the Pats are like 35 million under for next year. Sure they are going to sign koppen, Samual, and graham, just like we couldnt sign woody because andruzzi was coming up, just like we couldnt sign Av, willie, and givens because branch and Seymour was up, now we cant sign branch becuse graham, koppen, and samual are up.
    next year it will be we cant sign graham, koppen, and samual, because warren and wilson are coming up. At this rate, enjoy maroney and jackson because they will be gone in 4 years.
  12. Bobs My Uncle

    Bobs My Uncle PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Ummm, David Givens, Eric Moulds, Keyshawn Johnson would have been good starting points. Instead, we get Caldwell and Childress :rolleyes:
  13. TNPatsFan

    TNPatsFan Rookie

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    You would have paid Givens that much? He has yet to catch a pass in preseason, by the way. I would have liked to have gotten Moulds too. But they had no way to get him. He was traded to the Texans by Buffalo. He was not a free agent. Keyshawn Johnson is not the kind of player BB wants on the team so they didn't go after him.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2005
  14. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    Yes, keyshawns comments in the offseason that he would love to play with brady if he was willing to make $5 a year. That is the perception right now. Just been a weird offseason, like Seau, the guy has been available all offseason and for some reason they wait until he retires to offer him a contract. The colvin/harrison type signings tend to work much better then the beisel/caldwell signings.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2005
  15. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Where did you see this offer TN? The last offer that was posted was the 3 year extension that would pay Branch close to 20 Million and included 9 million in bonuses?
  16. smg93

    smg93 Rookie

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    What evidence do any of you have that the pats are likely to not spend to the cap? Which years during the BB/Pioli era have they been significantly under the cap???
  17. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Jimke -
    What about Matt Light? Mike Vrabel? Rosie Colvin? Richard Seymour? Even Tom Brady.

    The Patriots re-sign players at prices that the Patriots think they are worth. The problem is that the players have these over-inflated egos and forget that its a team sport and that it took others to make them look good. Branch looks amazing because of Brady. Branch is a #2 with any other QB throwing to him.
  18. TNPatsFan

    TNPatsFan Rookie

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    PatriotsInsiders.com

    I've seen it a couple other places but I don't remember where off the top of my head.

    I believe that was the initial offer. If I remember correctly, he declined so they withdrew that one and offered the 3 year deal.
  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    David Givens is not worth the contract he got.
    Eric Moulds was traded to the Texans if I remember correctly.
    How do you know the Patriots didn't attempt to sign Keyshawn? And is Keyshawn worth the 4 years $19 million he got?
  20. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    I would be surprised if Branch gets an offer like Reggie Wayne,

    since the team that gets him also has to give up a draft choice.

    Also, Branch simply isn't as good as Reggie.
  21. Bobs My Uncle

    Bobs My Uncle PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Right now I'd have paid David Givens twice what the Titans paid him so that we don't have to enter the season with Caldwell and Childress or the 70 years old Troy Brown as out starting WR's.

    I would imagine anyone in here would take just about ANY free agent (or easily attainable) WR that was available this offseason over Caldwell and Childress if this were May. I can't imagine anyone, back in May, would have said "I want to see Caldwell and Childres as out starting WR's come Sept" :rolleyes:
  22. Bobs My Uncle

    Bobs My Uncle PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    ALL of those players are better than Caldwell and Childress :rolleyes:

    You want "worth" What good is having all of this cap money if we line up Caldwell and Childres as our WR's?
  23. TNPatsFan

    TNPatsFan Rookie

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    I'm not saying the current WR roster is a good one. But there just isn't much out there now worth spending the money on. As a matter of fact there wasn't much to spend it on back in March either. Joe Jurivicius? Antwan Randle El? Ugh. Instead, they tried to spend the money on Branch who is a better option than any of them. But he didn't want the money. They have no choice now but to make due with what they have and anything that might come available between now and opening day.
  24. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    OK, Chicken Little, you clearly don't know what you are talking about in any of these cases.

    1) They chose not to sign Woody because he wanted too much money. And, since you have forgotten, Woody had weight issues that he couldn't bring under control. It had NOTHING to do with Andruzzi.

    2) We couldn't re-sign AV and McGinest because they wanted too much money. The Patriots attempted to negotiate with them, but they wanted the money. It had nothing to do with Seymour and Branch.

    3) Givens chose not to re-sign with the Patriots. He turned down several offers from the Pats. It had nothing to do with signing anyone else.

    4) The Patriots can't sign Branch because he is an egotistical liar who thinks that his success had nothing to do with the rest of the team. He believes that he is an ELITE #1 receiver, when, at best he is a good #2 receiver who has been pressed into #1 duty. Its Branch's greed and his moron agent that is keeping him from being on the Patriots. Not the Patriots. Or do you think that the 5 year/$31 million offer with $11 million bonus isn't good enough? That is the offer that Branch turned down. As well as the 3 year contract extension the Pats offered.

    People who sit there and blame this all on the management of the Patriots really don't have a clue as to the business side of the NFL and how the Patriots obviously approach things.
  25. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    So, in other words, Screw the salary cap and screw being able to pay other people.

    Our starting receivers are no worse than they were in 2001. And the situation is only where it is at because Branch and Givens both turned down very good offers from the Patriots.

    Why is it that you don't understand that?

    Hindsight is 20/20 now isn't it. Its not May and the Patriots tried to negotiate with Branch and his idiot agent only to be re-buffed. The Pats negotiated in good faith with Givens only to have the Titans outbid them.

    It happens. Its part of the business. Its disingenuous to pretend that the Patriots haven't attempted to bargain in good faith with people and its totally disrespectful to Pioli and Belichick.
  26. Jacky Roberts

    Jacky Roberts Rookie

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    Branch will prove himself to be a selfish player and look stupid when this is dumb. I'm going to call him "Leon" Branch from now on.
  27. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We have other players to spend that money on Koppen, Graham, Samuel. Branch isn't the only young player we should keep. If we can fromt load Sey's and or Brady's contract to free up room for others in future years, that a good thing.
  28. Bobs My Uncle

    Bobs My Uncle PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Don't tell em what I think.

    Here is what I think. Tell me if you agree or not?

    I think that BB and Pioli did not approach this offseason believing that they'd be facing the prospects of starting Caldwell and Childress (or a habitually injured rookie WR) as their starting WR's when they face Buffalo to open the season.

    If you think they did expect to see Caldwell and Childress (or a habitually injured rookie WR) as their starting WR's then I apologize for wasting your time. :rolleyes:

    In any case, I'm finished talking with you.
  29. DaBruinz

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    #50 Jersey

    All what cap money? Do you even know what you are talking about? It doesn't seem like it.

    The Patriots are less than 12.5 million under the cap currently. They have a 6.66 million bonus going to Seymour at some point and the thinking is that the Pats want to pay him it as a Roster Bonus, not a signing bonus. That way they take the entire hit this year and don't have to spread it out.

    Now, that leaves the Pats with approximately 5.9 million. Of that 5.9 million, they need to put 2-3 million aside for the #52 & #53 roster spots, any players on reserve lists, and the 8 person practice squad. That leaves between 2-3 million for signings during the year. It was only back in 2004 that the Patriots were so tight against the cap that they couldn't sign any quality injury replacements. Do you really want to be in that position again?

    Also, Its my belief that once the Branch situation is resolved, the Patriots will then start on contract extensions for Graham, Samuel and Koppen. And that takes money as well.

    So, which is it because you can't have it both ways. Either the Pats continue to operate the way they have been or they return to the ways of Booby Grier and Pete Carroll and sign mediocre players to stupid contracts and send us back to the junk heap. Personally, I want they doing business the way they are. They've shown that it works. And its disrespectful to BB and Pioli to pretend otherwise.
  30. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    4) The Patriots can't sign Branch because he is an egotistical liar who thinks that his success had nothing to do with the rest of the team. He believes that he is an ELITE #1 receiver, when, at best he is a good #2 receiver who has been pressed into #1 duty. Its Branch's greed and his moron agent that is keeping him from being on the Patriots. Not the Patriots. Or do you think that the 5 year/$31 million offer with $11 million bonus isn't good enough? That is the offer that Branch turned down. As well as the 3 year contract extension the Pats offered.

    completly hypocritical. if a dolphin fan came here and said that deion was just an average reciever, you would say how branch is a great reciever but since brady spreads the ball around he doesnt put up good numbers. Fine Deion is a decent #2, who just happend to torch great defenses in the playoffs when we needed him the most. Funny ho when the games got bigger Deion rose to the occasion. i guess you hate seymour too because he held out. we all love BB/Pioli but I also like the players who were on the field winning championships.

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