Current status of all BB-era draft picks

[Deus Irae]

Actually, it's not very relevant to a critique of the Patriots' drafting.

It is of course highly relevant to a critique of the Patriots' overall personnel success.

Actually, it is very relevant. Trading away higher picks means that you trade away the picks with the higher likelihood of success.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

The reality is that your complaint is not that the Patriots were "Bad" at drafting. Your complaint is that they prioritized positions other than linebacker. That's a philosophy argument, not an argument regarding the quality of the draft.

I used linebacker as an example to illustrate that there is room for improvement when it comes to drafting. I'm not asking for perfection. Why everyone gets so offended by this is beyond me.

 

[Deus Irae]

I used linebacker as an example to illustrate that there is room for improvement when it comes to drafting. I'm not asking for perfection. Why everyone gets so offended by this is beyond me.

They are one of the best drafting teams in the NFL. It has nothing to do with others being offended.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

You made a lousy argument. It has nothing to do with others being offended. It's just that you're wrong.

You're right they've done a great job of drafting LB's as evidenced by the stacked roster at the position.

 

[Deus Irae]

You're right they've done a great job of drafting LB's as evidenced by the stacked roster at the position.

And now you're back at philosophy and priority as opposed to success/failure.

 

[Satchboogie3]

How could someone POSSIBLY make the argument that we can't draft or are "bad" at drafting offensive players when we have always had a good-great offense and have had an other-worldly offense the last 2+ years? I don't get that. You prioritize your draft. If you have a great offense and a defense that needs to be replenished, what do you think would be the focus?

And how do you put a negative spin on the Moss and Welker trades? The Patriots traded a 4th rounder for Moss. A 4th rounder for the best wideout in the history of the NFL, who broke the TD record. Everyone has been calling that a steal! Even if it's just for one year, that's a steal, especially for just $5 million including incentives.

The Pats trade a 2nd and 7th for the best slot receiver in the game who will likely be with the Pats for a LONG time and everyone was amazed yet again. How on earth does someone turn around now a say that we "payed double" for this? If Welker is the best slot WR in the game, clearly we couldn't have just drafted someone as good.... BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST.

You build a team by using BOTH the draft AND free agency.

-----

For the LB position, those of us supporting the Pats decisions do so because we realize that prioritizing is important. Could the Pats have decided to draft LBs instead of waiting or adding free agents? Of course. That doesn't mean that there were linebackers capable of starting or being a better backup than what was available on the FA market. Also remember that if they were to draft a linebacker, it would take away a pick they actually made. That could mean instead of drafting a Ghostkowski or Watson, etc, they would have a LB who might not be all that good.

I admire BB for not drafting LB when he doesn't think there are any fit to be in his organization. It shows that he has patience. Most other coaches would just take stupid gambles instead of looking to add FA linebackers and using the draft picks for better personal and positions.

Finally, part of my point with the "revisionists" post was that it is pointless to make such claims and "wishes". If we win, no one cares about how we drafted, etc. Just because you lose, doesn't mean you didn't make the right decisions. There is luck involved in anything. The people who constantly go back and try to "revise" history won't succeed because they can't come to grip with that fact of life.

 

[DaBruinz]

So what do you want to do give them credit for not drafting LB's. If it's so hard to find someone to fit your system than maybe you adjust the system.

I give them credit for not wasting draft picks on players who would fail in the system.

Now, as for "changing the system," did you stop to think that if they change it, they don't win the SBs? NO. You didn't.

 

[DaBruinz]

Wrong again.

I'm not wrong. You just don't have a clue as to what the phrase "revisionist history" means.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Speaking of revisionist history, Wrong is at it again. The plagerizer must be lurking at Patsfans a lot lately... Has serious issues with the grocery shopper here. Which is entertaining since he used to lament Bill getting the lions share of the credit for Pioli winning those Executive of the Year awards... Now he's trying to act like Pioli or say a guy like Dimetroff were just file clerks here... And all because we suddenly suck to the tune of only 12 wins a season on average...He should ask that NFL coach he consults for insight if he'd trade places or rosters...

Personnel demons - BostonHerald.com

 

[DaBruinz]

Welker....5 year contract totalling about $17 mill. Welker signed this new contract before ever suiting up. Remember Welker was a restricted free agent who the Patriots were going to sign an offer sheet for...until a trade was consumated.
Signing bonus: $5.5 million in 2007.
Option bonus: $3.5 million payable in 2008, applied for cap reasons in equal $875,000 increments in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011.
Salaries: $550,000 in '07, $1,400,000 in '08, $1.65 million in '09, $1.9 million in '10 and $2.15 million in '11.
Workout bonuses: $56,720 in 2007, 106,720 annually starting in 2008 if he participates in the Patriots' offseason workout program in Foxboro.
Roster bonuses: $250,000 annually starting in 2008.

Thank you for proving me correct. Welker's salary wasn't 2.7 million when they traded for him. It was 500K.. You might want to remember that the salary and the salary cap number are two different things.

Moss..."Moss signed a one-year deal for $3 million but could make $5 million with incentives, ESPN said." from NBCSports.com

It wasn't salary. It was incentive bonuses. There is a difference.

As far as your level of disgust with the Maroney / Dillon issue. I don't mention Maroney, but I do compare Dillon's cost with the cost of the 2nd round pick he was traded for.

Good for you. It doesn't mean that your comparison is worth a damn thing.

So there's three issues that you incorrectly rebutted.

No. There are 3 issues I CORRECTLY rebutted. Just because you don't understand the difference between Salary and Salary Cap number doesn't mean that what I said was wrong.

As for Watson...I really have no problem with Watson. It is funny though that this being his 6th season with the Patriots, his highlight reel is limited to about a half a season of scoring success and a 100 yard tackle. I included the TEs because they do make plays, but my real dissatisfaction was at the WR/RB drafting.

What I find funny is that you purposely limited your scope to not include 2002. And you ignored things that some of those players did. But its clear to me that you insist on being myopic about this.

Poor drafting lead them to the double cost trades....and they are double cost. They had needs that couldn't wait until free agency, so they used draft picks. Dillon's 2nd rounder secured his service for 1 year. Moss' 4th secured 1 year, Welkers 2 + 7 got the Pats 5 years. All were also paid star salaries (Moss did reduce his)

Poor drafting did NOT lead them to double cost trades. That is your own flawed idea that really isn't supported by fact. As I said, you are insisting on looking at things in a vacuum. You ignore the fact that most WRs who are drafted take 2-3 years to make an impact, hence that cost needs to be added. The Dillon trade secured him for 2 years, not one. See, you don't seem to remember that Dillon had 2 years remaining on his contract when was traded for and that it was after the 2004 season that he restructured his contract and was give a new 2 year deal with the team option of 3 more.

500K is not a star salary. 3 million was not a STAR salary in 2007 for a WR.

Sure, Moss and Welker bring a ton of value, unfortunately the Pats college drafting of WRs has brought no value in 6 years

Look at 2006. After Branch and Givens departed, the Pats had no plan B on the roster. Bethel was dealt and Brown was toast. Jackson was wounded. Caldwell, Gaffney, and Gabriel (traded for) became Brady's headache. It's amazing Brady got this team to the AFCCG...nice one Caldwell. This wasted WR season lead BB to the 2007 retooling by "drafting" vets.

More revisionist history. Branch didn't depart until September. And you seem to forget that Branch, prior to the 2006 draft, said he's honor his contract and play out his last year. It wasn't until AFTER the draft (and the selection of Chad Jackson) that Branch stated he was going to hold out. The "PLAN" was to have Branch be the #1 with Caldwell the #2. BTW, its pretty friggin stupid of you to blame Caldwell for the AFCCG loss to the Colts. Especially when the Pats couldn't run the ball in the 4th quarter since their top 3 RBs were injured. Again with the revisionist history.

Back to my initial point, the Pats have failed at developing skill positions from 2003-8...WR/RB ...with a C grade at TE.
Maroney's game has not improved 1% and durability issues are constant.
0-3 in WR drafting.
You would think that in those 6 years, there would be at least one stand out.

Back to your point. You are lambasting the Patriots for having drafted just 3 WRs from 2003 through 2008. And, you clearly feel that because they didn't get some great player out of those 3 picks, that they failed. Of course, those of us who don't look at things in a vacuum, know differently and know that trying to base things on a population of 3 is just ignorant. But then, those of us who know that also know that Welker and Moss should be included.

BTW, you're ignorant if you think that Maroney's game hasn't improved even 1%. He's a much better blocker than he was as a rookie and he's better in the passing game than he was.

 

[DaBruinz]

Speaking of revisionist history, Wrong is at it again. The plagerizer must be lurking at Patsfans a lot lately... Has serious issues with the grocery shopper here. Which is entertaining since he used to lament Bill getting the lions share of the credit for Pioli winning those Executive of the Year awards... Now he's trying to act like Pioli or say a guy like Dimetroff were just file clerks here... And all because we suddenly suck to the tune of only 12 wins a season on average...He should ask that NFL coach he consults for insight if he'd trade places or rosters...

Personnel demons - BostonHerald.com

Not only that, he's got some of his facts wrong.

1) As pointed out by Deus links, the league average for picks sticking in the NFL is only 31%. So the Pats having 50% from 2004 through 2007 is a good thing

2) Borges says that only Wilfork and Watson are still in the NFL from the 2004 draft. What he doesn't mention is that Marquise Hill isn't here because he's deceased. He makes it sound like Hill was a failure when the players said otherwise.

3) David Thomas wasn't "gone within 3 years." Thomas spent 3 full seasons on the Pats. He was gone in the 4th.

4) Ty Poole was a starting CB for the Patriots for 2003 and 2004. He wasn't part of the players brought in to try and replace Ty Law. Heck, neither was Chad Scott, Jason Webster, or Tank Williams.

 

[pats1]

Not only that, he's got some of his facts wrong.

1) As pointed out by Deus links, the league average for picks sticking in the NFL is only 31%. So the Pats having 50% from 2004 through 2007 is a good thing

2) Borges says that only Wilfork and Watson are still in the NFL from the 2004 draft. What he doesn't mention is that Marquise Hill isn't here because he's deceased. He makes it sound like Hill was a failure when the players said otherwise.

3) David Thomas wasn't "gone within 3 years." Thomas spent 3 full seasons on the Pats. He was gone in the 4th.

4) Ty Poole was a starting CB for the Patriots for 2003 and 2004. He wasn't part of the players brought in to try and replace Ty Law. Heck, neither was Chad Scott, Jason Webster, or Tank Williams.

Duane Starks, Artrell Hawkins, Antuan Edwards, Arturo Freeman, Tebucky Jones 2.0, Mel Mitchell, Eric Warfield, Ray Mickens, Tory James, Lewis Sanders, Fernando Bryant, Shawn Springs?

 

[Ring 6]

Really. What linebackers they drafted led to their Super Bowl wins?

NOT drafting LBs and drafting the players they did, led to their SB wins.
Had they drafted LBs they would not have the players they did draft.

 

[maverick4]

Myth that Patriots are good drafters: busted

Not necessarily true.

9 years out, how can you expect most of their picks from the early 2000's to still be playing?

 

[DaBruinz]

Duane Starks, Artrell Hawkins, Antuan Edwards, Arturo Freeman, Tebucky Jones 2.0, Mel Mitchell, Eric Warfield, Ray Mickens, Tory James, Lewis Sanders, Fernando Bryant, Shawn Springs?

Edwards, Jones, Mitchell and Sanders were all brought in as Safeties. Hawkins was brought in as an injury replacement. Starks, Bryant, Warfield, I can agree were brought in as attempts to find a starter. Springs was brought in to be a CB and Safety. Not as a replacement to Law, though.

 

[Rob0729]

You look at the Pats' record vs. the rest of the league. They draft very well especially when you factor in the fact that they have drafted mostly near the bottom of each round for most of the decade. The Pats aren't perfect.

I still maintain, people look at the 2007 draft unfairly. Forget the picks that they gave up for Moss and Welker. Six of the nine picks the Pats had that year were in the sixth or seventh round. On a bad team, sixth and seventh round picks face an uphill battle to make the team or even make it in the NFL. How do you expect sixth and seventh rounders to make a team that was 1 minute away from a perfect season. I bet you that most of the players drafted in those two rounds that year are already out of the league.

 

[RayClay]

NOT drafting LBs and drafting the players they did, led to their SB wins.
Had they drafted LBs they would not have the players they did draft.

You mean using the draft picks of Parcells and Donahoe led to Super Bowl wins.

Bruschi McGinest Law Vrabel.

Only Seymour was a pick in his prime while they were developing the great future linebackers like Matt Chatham and Maugaula Tuitele.

Brady was a 6th round pick. They were willing to use 6th round picks on linebackers, so I don't think eschewing a linebacker pick is responsible for Tom Brady.

Our top picks besides Seymour contributed more to the current team than any Super Bowls, since Warren and Wilfork were just rookies in 2003 and 2004, respectively.

And you are allowed to use 2nd 3rd and 4th round picks on linebackers, which they didn't do until last year.

So they hit on all the picks in those three rounds? OK.

 

[RayClay]

And now you're back at philosophy and priority as opposed to success/failure.

So getting the players necessary to stock positions and fill our needs isn't the purpose of the draft?

I forgot, success is measured by how many picks agree with the assessment of draft sites so you can brag when you cut them and stock other teams.

 

[RayClay]

This just made me laugh for some reason.

Before anyone says, regarding talent vs draft position "But Tom Brady was a 6th round pick!!!" Look at this.

Multiply that by multi years and 32 teams and the odds of 1 Tom Brady succeeding as a 6th come into perspective.

2007
1 - DB Brandon Meriweather - Active, New England Patriots
4 - DL Kareem Brown - Out of NFL
5 - OL Clint Oldenburg - Out of NFL
6 - LB Justin Rogers - Out of NFL
6 - DB Mike Richardson - Out of NFL
6 - RB Justise Hairston - Injured Reserve, Buffalo Bills
6 - OL Corey Hilliard - Practice Squad, Cleveland Browns
7 - LB Oscar Lua - Out of NFL
7 - OL Mike Elgin - Out of NFL

 

[pats1]

You look at the Pats' record vs. the rest of the league. They draft very well especially when you factor in the fact that they have drafted mostly near the bottom of each round for most of the decade. The Pats aren't perfect.

I still maintain, people look at the 2007 draft unfairly. Forget the picks that they gave up for Moss and Welker. Six of the nine picks the Pats had that year were in the sixth or seventh round. On a bad team, sixth and seventh round picks face an uphill battle to make the team or even make it in the NFL. How do you expect sixth and seventh rounders to make a team that was 1 minute away from a perfect season. I bet you that most of the players drafted in those two rounds that year are already out of the league.

Sixth round, 2007
175 - FB Oren O'Neal - Active, Oakland Raiders
176 - LB Rufus Alexander - Out of NFL
177 - OL Jacob Bender - Practice Squad, New York Giants
178 - K Nick Folk - Active, Dallas Cowboys
179 - LB H.B. Blades - Active, Washington Redskins
180 - LB Justin Rogers - Out of NFL
181 - FB Reagan Mauia - Out of NFL
182 - LB Adam Hayward - Active, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
183 - OL Kasey Studdard - Active, Houston Texans
184 - DB John Wendling - Active, Buffalo Bills
185 - DL Trey Lewis - Active, Atlanta Falcons
186 - RB Thomas Clayton - Injured Reserve, San Francisco 49ers
187 - DL Matt Toeaina - Active, Chicago Bears
188 - WR Joel Filani - Out of NFL
189 - OL Adam Koets - Active, New York Giants
190 - OL Ken Shackleford - Out of NFL
191 - FB Korey Hall - Active, Green Bay Packers
192 - LB Desmond Bishop - Active, Green Bay Packers
193 - K Mason Crosby - Active, Green Bay Packers
194 - DB David Irons - Out of NFL
195 - FB Deon Anderson - Active, Dallas Cwoboys
196 - OL Herbert Taylor - Out of NFL
197 - WR Courtney Taylor - Out of NFL
198 - OL Doug Datish - Injured Reserve, Tennessee Titans
199 - OL Drew Mormino - Out of NFL
200 - DL Melila Purcell - Out of NFL
201 - DB Rashad Barksdale - Practice Squad, Arizona Cardinals
202 - DB Mike Richardson - Out of NFL
203 - DB Daren Stone - Out of NFL
204 - DL Jacob Ford - Active, Tennessee Titans
205 - QB Jordan Palmer - Active, Cincinnati Bengals
206 - DB Ryan Smith - Out of NFL
207 - LB Prescott Burgess - Active, New England Patriots
208 - RB Justise Hairston - Injured Reserve, Buffalo Bills
209 - OL Corey Hilliard - Practice Squad, Cleveland Browns
210 - WR Jordan Kent - Out of NFL

Seventh round, 2007
211 - LB Oscar Lua - Out of NFL
212 - CB Courtney Brown - Out of NFL
213 - DL Chase Pittman - Out of NFL
214 - OL Chris Denman - Out of NFL
215 - TE Ben Patrick - Suspended, Arizona Cardinals
216 - TE Tyler Ecker - Out of NFL
217 - QB Tyler Thigpen - Active, Kansas City Chiefs
218 - LB Zac Diles - Active, Houston Texans
219 - LB Kelvin Smith - Practice Squad, Carolina Panthers
220 - LB Marvin Mitchell - Active, New Orleans Saints
221 - CB Trumaine McBride - Injured Reserve, Chicago Bears
222 - TE Derek Schouman - Injured Reserve, Buffalo Bills
223 - OL Mike Otto - Active, Tennessee Titans
224 - DB Michael Johnson - Active, New York Giants
225 - P Brandon Fields - Active, Miami Dolphins
226 - DB C.J. Wilson - Active, Carolina Panthers
227 - WR Dallas Baker - Out of NFL
228 - RB Deshawn Wynn - Active, Green Bay Packers
229 - WR John Broussard - Practice Squad, Detroit Lions
230 - OL Dan Santucci - Injured Reserve, Cincinnati Bengals
231 - TE Michael Allan - Out of NFL
232 - OL Steve Vallos - Active, Seattle Seahawks
233 - WR Chandler Williams - Out of NFL
234 - WR Syndric Steptoe - Injured Reserve, Cleveland Browns
235 - WR Chansi Stuckey - Active, New York Jets
236 - RB Nate Ilaoa - Out of NFL
237 - DB Alan Ball - Active, Dallas Cowboys
238 - DL Abraham Wright - Out of NFL
239 - DL C.J. Ah You - Active, St. Louis Rams
240 - LB Brandon Siler - Active, San Diego Chargers
241 - OL Aaron Brant - Out of NFL
242 - DL Keyunta Dawson - Active, Indianapolis Colts
243 - TE/LS Clark Harris - Out of NFL
244 - RB Jason Snelling - Active, Atlanta Falcons
245 - DB Marcus Hamilton - Active, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
246 - RB Kenneth Darby - Active, St. Louis Rams
247 - OL Mike Elgin - Out of NFL
248 - DL Keith Jackson - Out of NFL
249 - WR Derek Stanley - Out of NFL
250 - RB Ahmad Brashaw - Active, New York Giants
251 - DB Chad Nkang - Out of NFL
252 - OL Andrwe Carnahan - Injured Reserve, New York Giants
253 - DB Chinedum Ndukwe - Active, Cincinati Bengals
254 - WR Jonathan Holland - Active, Oakland Raiders
255 - DB Ramzee Robinson - Out of NFL