Curran says Pats will target Barron if they trade up

[manxman2601]

What about a move up for Kirkpatrick?

Barron is best known for his run-stopping abilities, but what we need is a safety who will help against the pass. Kirkpatrick played CB at Alabama, but a lot of people are projecting him to Free Safety (similar to what the Saints did with Malcolm Jenkins when he came out of Ohio State).

I like this better than the Barron move because a) he likely has more versatility than Barron, playing CB or FS, b) he's 6-2, so he can cover big TEs and WRs, c) the move would likely cost less than moving up to get Barron (Barron will probably go in the 11-14 range, Kirkpatrick probably in the 14-20 range).

I note you edited away from "ball-hawking safety" because I was going to come back with:

Dre Kirkpatrick - 3 career Ints

Mark Barron - 12 career Ints.

Timely edit

 

[zgotts]

I note you edited away from "ball-hawking safety" because I was going to come back with:

Dre Kirkpatrick - 3 career Ints

Mark Barron - 12 career Ints.

Timely edit

Haha... indeed!

From what I've read, a lot of teams avoided throwing to Kirkpatrick's territory, which could have some effect on those numbers. Barron also played one more season than Kirkpatrick.

 

[manxman2601]

Haha... indeed!

From what I've read, a lot of teams avoided throwing to Kirkpatrick's territory, which could have some effect on those numbers. Barron also played one more season than Kirkpatrick.

And if you watch the tape, Barron bailed out Kirkpatrick a lot. Don't get me wrong, I love Kirkpatrick but Barron is another level above him.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

barron or morris claiborne? on NFLN they said that the vikings are willing to move the number 3 pick. if they accept our two first rounders, is morris claiborne worth it over barron?

 

[Patriot Missile]

barron or morris claiborne? on NFLN they said that the vikings are willing to move the number 3 pick. if they accept our two first rounders, is morris claiborne worth it over barron?

Keep it coming. Our 2 first AND 2 2nd rounders dont equal out to the 3rd pick. Still about 200 or 300 points shy.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Keep it coming. Our 2 first AND 2 2nd rounders dont equal out to the 3rd pick. Still about 200 or 300 points shy.

That's what i figured.

 

[Seneschal2]

I have too much to say on this topic, so I'll just keep it simple.

Would BB part with two firsts for a player who wasn't #1 overall on his board?

Does everyone really believe that Barron is ranked #1?

That said, the need for a Safety has snowballed to the point of folks losing sight of what BB's real objective may be -- upgrading the entire secondary with better ball skills and coverage abilities. His options may include considering the versatility of his existing DBs. Where exactly are Arrington, Dowling, and McCourty going to play? They're all CBs, but can any of them provide the Safety coverage abilities and ball skills that the fans are seeking from one draftee? If one of them can handle Safety duties -- than draft a coverage CB early. The addition of a healthy Dowling and a rookie CB will immediately improve the subpar coverage the DB unit exhibited throughout last season. Putting all of your eggs in one basket (Barron) to solve your secondary woes is not the BB way. And besides...Belichick has other needs...

JMHO.

 

[vafides]

every year the patriots have the ammo to trade up in the first round... every year they dont.

i cant see this years crop or any single player sticking out who is worthy of moving up. there usually isnt with this front office

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I have too much to say on this topic, so I'll just keep it simple.

Would BB part with two firsts for a player who wasn't #1 overall on his board?

Does everyone really believe that Barron is ranked #1?

That said, the need for a Safety has snowballed to the point of folks losing sight of what BB's real objective may be -- upgrading the entire secondary with better ball skills and coverage abilities. His options may include considering the versatility of his existing DBs. Where exactly are Arrington, Dowling, and McCourty going to play? They're all CBs, but can any of them provide the Safety coverage abilities and ball skills that the fans are seeking from one draftee? If one of them can handle Safety duties -- than draft a coverage CB early. The addition of a healthy Dowling and a rookie CB will immediately improve the subpar coverage the DB unit exhibited throughout last season. Putting all of your eggs in one basket (Barron) to solve your secondary woes is not the BB way. And besides...Belichick has other needs...

JMHO.

Does BB consider Barron a playmaker? If he does, then Barron is worth two first round picks.

In my mind Brockers is a playmaker and worth #27 and #48, which we would trade to Arizona for #13.

 

[manxman2601]

I have too much to say on this topic, so I'll just keep it simple.

Would BB part with two firsts for a player who wasn't #1 overall on his board?

Does everyone really believe that Barron is ranked #1?

That said, the need for a Safety has snowballed to the point of folks losing sight of what BB's real objective may be -- upgrading the entire secondary with better ball skills and coverage abilities. His options may include considering the versatility of his existing DBs. Where exactly are Arrington, Dowling, and McCourty going to play? They're all CBs, but can any of them provide the Safety coverage abilities and ball skills that the fans are seeking from one draftee? If one of them can handle Safety duties -- than draft a coverage CB early. The addition of a healthy Dowling and a rookie CB will immediately improve the subpar coverage the DB unit exhibited throughout last season. Putting all of your eggs in one basket (Barron) to solve your secondary woes is not the BB way. And besides...Belichick has other needs...

JMHO.

Well Trent Richardson and Claiborne might be higher on the Pats board but I don't see how that's relevant. Not that we'll ever know, but I'd be amazed if Barron isn't in the top 5-10 on their board. Hell, if he's #7 on Mayocks and Cosell rates him as one of the best 7 players in the draft, it's almost a guarantee he's in BB's top 5. Trouble is, he's probably in the top 5-10 of a lot of teams.

 

[silenthuntr7]

I just don't see it, both from a value standpoint, and also from looking at Barron himself.

Value - This draft is widely thought of to be weaker than previous drafts, with less difference-makers than in previous drafts. Now, the last time I can remember a draft this weak is 2007, when the Patriots traded their second 1st rounder to SF for their 1st rounder in the 2008's draft. They pretty much stated afterwords (I don't remember who, but someone with knowledge of the draft) that they thought it was a weak class, and that the 28th pick wasn't going to get them a first-round talent. I look for them to do something similar this year, especially as we have a dearth of latter round picks, both this year and next year. Something like 27/31 for a first and a third next year, and a sixth this year.

Now, it's entirely possible that you take the opposite view: that a dearth of talent means you should trade up and grab one of the few blue-chippers available. However, that doesn't make sense economically, as when things are scarce, they increase in value (hence the dramatic rise of Barron, admittedly a very good player). BB, with a background in economics, would know the basic principle of success in economics: buy low, sell high. The market right now just doesn't present that opportunity.

Need - Let me preface this by saying that I think Barron is a very good player. Had he come out in last year's draft, I would have placed him somewhere around #20, about the same value as Prince Amukamara. However, the Patriots, while short on safeties, need a FS. In fact, I believe that as the game shifts to more of a spread-offence, shotgun, passing-oriented attack, that both safety positions will soon be manned by FS types. (Unless you have an Ed Reed-type that can cover the whole field, but let's face it, there's only one Ed Reed.)

That is not the core strength of Barron - his main responsibility, while at Alabama, was to make the last tackle, and be responsible for lining up the secondary. He's certainly an above-average cover man, but 13 interceptions are both a good and bad thing: it shows that QBs weren't afraid to throw in his general vicinity. Whether that's the QBs' mistakes, we don't know, but we do know that Barron doesn't have elite range, and doesn't have the fluidity and ability to move those hips and swivel on a dime that a world-class FS needs.

TL; DR: His lack of elite coverage skills and the high cost needed to acquire him make it very unlikely that Mark Barron will be wearing the Flying Elvis anytime soon.

 

[manxman2601]

I just don't see it, both from a value standpoint, and also from looking at Barron himself.

Value - This draft is widely thought of to be weaker than previous drafts, with less difference-makers than in previous drafts. Now, the last time I can remember a draft this weak is 2007, when the Patriots traded their second 1st rounder to SF for their 1st rounder in the 2008's draft. They pretty much stated afterwords (I don't remember who, but someone with knowledge of the draft) that they thought it was a weak class, and that the 28th pick wasn't going to get them a first-round talent. I look for them to do something similar this year, especially as we have a dearth of latter round picks, both this year and next year. Something like 27/31 for a first and a third next year, and a sixth this year.

Now, it's entirely possible that you take the opposite view: that a dearth of talent means you should trade up and grab one of the few blue-chippers available. However, that doesn't make sense economically, as when things are scarce, they increase in value (hence the dramatic rise of Barron, admittedly a very good player). BB, with a background in economics, would know the basic principle of success in economics: buy low, sell high. The market right now just doesn't present that opportunity.

Need - Let me preface this by saying that I think Barron is a very good player. Had he come out in last year's draft, I would have placed him somewhere around #20, about the same value as Prince Amukamara. However, the Patriots, while short on safeties, need a FS. In fact, I believe that as the game shifts to more of a spread-offence, shotgun, passing-oriented attack, that both safety positions will soon be manned by FS types. (Unless you have an Ed Reed-type that can cover the whole field, but let's face it, there's only one Ed Reed.)

That is not the core strength of Barron - his main responsibility, while at Alabama, was to make the last tackle, and be responsible for lining up the secondary. He's certainly an above-average cover man, but 13 interceptions are both a good and bad thing: it shows that QBs weren't afraid to throw in his general vicinity. Whether that's the QBs' mistakes, we don't know, but we do know that Barron doesn't have elite range, and doesn't have the fluidity and ability to move those hips and swivel on a dime that a world-class FS needs.

TL; DR: His lack of elite coverage skills and the high cost needed to acquire him make it very unlikely that Mark Barron will be wearing the Flying Elvis anytime soon.

That's an intelligent and well written argument. It's wrong, but it's intelligent all the same.

Here's the reason why it's wrong. You invent some fantasy FS to compare Barron against, and then because he doesn't stack up, deem him unworthy of a trade up. How many safeties are currently playing in the NFL that match up to the standard you set? One? And that guy's a future hall of famer. One might as well argue that there's no point in drafting an OLB unless they project to be LT.

Barron does pretty much all that would be required of a safety in the Patriots system: match up man for man with TE's, cover slot receivers man for man in the short middle and play cover 1 or 2 in centerfield and anticipate receivers routes. Barron does all those things very well - the tape is there. Throw in elite level ball skills and of course the ability to be a hammer in the box and Barron becomes, the day he's drafted, our best player in the secondary. And then on top of that, Barron is the perfect BB patriot in terms of intangibles.

Now will he be a Patriot come friday. I don't know, the cost will be expensive. I wouldn't spend more than two picks on Barron (likely our two first rounders), but unless we're getting a high 2013 first rounder out of those two picks, I do not see better value in using them on some fairly mediocre late first candidates, most of whom are second rounders at best.

It's unlikely BB trades up far enough to draft Barron, it's not his M.O. I just strongly believe that it will be a mistake not to at least try and draft Barron because I'm confident he'll be a better player in the NFL than anyone we draft at 27 or 31.

 

[supafly]

Not sure if you saw this or not...

BUF reportedly 'very interested in Barron at #10.'

Report: Bills “extremely interested” in Mark Barron | ProFootballTalk

I feel your frustration. I was super high on JJ Watt last yr, and wanted him badly on the team. At least that pick was within 8 or so spots, and 'could've' warranted a trade up..realistically.

Barron is rising higher and higher every day. The chances of him coming here are becoming ridiculously slimmer by the second.

 

[manxman2601]

Not sure if you saw this or not...

BUF reportedly 'very interested in Barron at #10.'

Report: Bills “extremely interested” in Mark Barron | ProFootballTalk

I feel your frustration. I was super high on JJ Watt last yr, and wanted him badly on the team. At least that pick was within 8 or so spots, and 'could've' warranted a trade up..realistically.

Barron is rising higher and higher every day. The chances of him coming here are becoming ridiculously slimmer by the second.

I know. Heck I could even see Jacksonville go there. Funny thing is, if we'd been having this debate last year, but about JJ Watt, I'd be telling you that he isn't a fit for the Patriots - still don't think he is even though he's a really good player.

I don't think we should go any higher than KC at 11 for Barron. At least there, according to the value chart, trading both firsts still gets us a pick back. But I don't see Buffalo trading with us and when you start getting into the top 10, things start getting really expensive.

the ironic thing is, I really don't like the consensus defensive players in the late first, McLellin, Upshaw and Hightower are the only one's I think offer anything near the proper value. So i'll probably go even further off the range by arguing for Doug Martin, Coby Fleener or Lavonte David with our first round picks. And you thought Barron was bad (value)

 

[supafly]

I know. Heck I could even see Jacksonville go there. Funny thing is, if we'd been having this debate last year, but about JJ Watt, I'd be telling you that he isn't a fit for the Patriots - still don't think he is even though he's a really good player.

I don't think we should go any higher than KC at 11 for Barron. At least there, according to the value chart, trading both firsts still gets us a pick back. But I don't see Buffalo trading with us and when you start getting into the top 10, things start getting really expensive.

the ironic thing is, I really don't like the consensus defensive players in the late first, McLellin, Upshaw and Hightower are the only one's I think offer anything near the proper value. So i'll probably go even further off the range by arguing for Doug Martin, Coby Fleener or Lavonte David with our first round picks. And you thought Barron was bad (value)

D.Martin, I could see.

You seem to know a lot more about the draft prospects, and I respect that.

I have heard that Fleener is not a very good blocker at all, and simply more of just a big redzone target.

My feelings on David are that he's more of a pick in the 35-40 range, although I honestly haven't done half of the research that you probably have done.

I would be perfectly happy with Martin (RB Martin, not OT), and any of the defensive prospects that you listed. I think that David should maybe wait, but then again, they'll likely trade down at least once too--so he's a possibility.

 

[dryheat44]

I don't think we should go any higher than KC at 11 for Barron. At least there, according to the value chart, trading both firsts still gets us a pick back. But I don't see Buffalo trading with us and when you start getting into the top 10, things start getting really expensive.

I'll go one better and say that there's no way BB trades 2 firsts for Barron nor any other player in the draft. The highest I can see him going is 27 and 62...which should get us to 17 or so. Investing so much capital in one player just isn't what Belichick does. So far, I've seen Barron linked to almost every single team drafting from 10 to 20. If he is coming here, it's because Belichick does indeed see the next Ed Reed, or at the very least Troy Polamalu.

My guess is that Dallas makes a small trade up to get him around 12.

 

[silenthuntr7]

That's an intelligent and well written argument. It's wrong, but it's intelligent all the same.

Thanks for calling me intelligent, even if we disagree.

Here's the reason why it's wrong. You invent some fantasy FS to compare Barron against, and then because he doesn't stack up, deem him unworthy of a trade up. How many safeties are currently playing in the NFL that match up to the standard you set? One? And that guy's a future hall of famer. One might as well argue that there's no point in drafting an OLB unless they project to be LT.

Barron does pretty much all that would be required of a safety in the Patriots system: match up man for man with TE's, cover slot receivers man for man in the short middle and play cover 1 or 2 in centerfield and anticipate receivers routes. Barron does all those things very well - the tape is there. Throw in elite level ball skills and of course the ability to be a hammer in the box and Barron becomes, the day he's drafted, our best player in the secondary. And then on top of that, Barron is the perfect BB patriot in terms of intangibles.

See...I don't see what you're seeing from Barron's tape.
I don't see that he can cover slot receivers man to man. In fact, I see that he can't cover receivers very well man to man - not that he was asked to much.
Everything else is there, but that's the one thing I'm not seeing at all.

Now will he be a Patriot come friday. I don't know, the cost will be expensive. I wouldn't spend more than two picks on Barron (likely our two first rounders), but unless we're getting a high 2013 first rounder out of those two picks, I do not see better value in using them on some fairly mediocre late first candidates, most of whom are second rounders at best.

It's unlikely BB trades up far enough to draft Barron, it's not his M.O. I just strongly believe that it will be a mistake not to at least try and draft Barron because I'm confident he'll be a better player in the NFL than anyone we draft at 27 or 31.

I go back to the value argument, and say that almost no player is worth two first round picks, unless they're special. Also, I harken back to last year's draft, when BB advised Demitroff not to trade up for Julio Jones - I believe he said something along the lines of J. Jones not being special.

Mark Barron is good. He'll be an average-to-good NFL player. He's not special by any means. In fact, the only players in this draft I see with a good chance of being special are the QBs at the top, and Richardson.

 

[manxman2601]

Thanks for calling me intelligent, even if we disagree.



See...I don't see what you're seeing from Barron's tape.
I don't see that he can cover slot receivers man to man. In fact, I see that he can't cover receivers very well man to man - not that he was asked to much.
Everything else is there, but that's the one thing I'm not seeing at all.



I go back to the value argument, and say that almost no player is worth two first round picks, unless they're special. Also, I harken back to last year's draft, when BB advised Demitroff not to trade up for Julio Jones - I believe he said something along the lines of J. Jones not being special.

Mark Barron is good. He'll be an average-to-good NFL player. He's not special by any means. In fact, the only players in this draft I see with a good chance of being special are the QBs at the top, and Richardson.

Where have you not seen him cover very well because I've watched almost all his 2011 tape and only once saw him struggle with a receiver and that was only because of a blown play.

As for value, I keep seeing Kendall Reyes and Harrison Smith going to the Patriots in mocks. Those are two players with borderline 2nd/3rd round grades. If that's the level of talent BB is forced to pick from at the bottom of the first, where is the value in that?

We'll agree to disagree. I think Barron will be a perennial pro-bowler in the league and the second best defensive player on the Pats. I don't think BB will trade up that far for him. I just think he should.

 

[Blackluck]

I go back to the value argument, and say that almost no player is worth two first round picks, unless they're special. Also, I harken back to last year's draft, when BB advised Demitroff not to trade up for Julio Jones - I believe he said something along the lines of J. Jones not being special.

Mark Barron is good. He'll be an average-to-good NFL player. He's not special by any means. In fact, the only players in this draft I see with a good chance of being special are the QBs at the top, and Richardson.

He said ATL could get comparable value with the receiver that KC took (whose name escapes me atm.) So I would think BB would move up only for a player with a unique skill set that couldn't be reasonably offered by another prospect. I don't think BB will ever move up very far for any player (outside a QB if he didn't have one.)

 

[silenthuntr7]

From People asking what tape I watch:
I've watched Mark Barron against Penn State, Tennessee (2010) and SC, Florida, LSU (2011).

2010: against Penn State, he was only matched up in single coverage against a Penn State receiver in the slot once. The play didn't go to the receiver, but I thought the coverage was good. Against Tennessee, he gave up a catch to the receiver, and had another play where the receiver beat him but one of the LBs think it was Hightower) made a play on the ball. Also committed pass interference on one play.

2011: Against SC, has deep zone against Alshon Jeffery. Not bad coverage, but missed the ball, and Jeffery makes the completion and the touchdown. Also allowed a completion where the larger receiver just bodied him out of position to make the catch.

Against Florida, allowed a completion in zone where he was the closest defender, but I think they Florida just found a hole in the zone on that play. Also was in coverage deep on a play where he was beat, but the ball was just a touch overthrown. Did a good job of grabbing the receiver's arm and not getting any penalties.

Against LSU, most of the plays were running plays, and he did a very good job. Also, Lee sucks.

Conclusion: Don't get me wrong, the guy is good. He'll do a pretty good job at safety. However, he doesn't have elite speed or athleticism, and from what I watched, just isn't an elite cover guy. He does all the other things really well though (coverage of TEs, run block support, being the 'last tackle'), and is an elite recognition guy. I'd love to have him on the Patriots...I just don't think BB would trade two firsts for him.

Also, from the tape I watched, I really like Dre Kirkpatrick. I think the guy's smart, talented, and has a chance of being a Patriot (even if I do like J. Jenkins more).