Curran article on Jets tampering

[Rob0729]

Talking in circles and using a wall of words doesn't make you right.

If your running theory is that punishment is directly related to media and fan outrage why would you be trying to convince our fans to be less outraged about this?

 

[Rob0729]

Talking in circles and using a wall of words doesn't make you right.

If your running theory is that punishment is directly related to media and fan outrage why would you be trying to convince our fans to be less outraged about this?

Have at it. I am sure that a few dozen Patriots fans who actually care about this shouting from the roof tops should get Goodell to strip Johnson of his ownership. I don't even think the majority of Patriots fans even care about it. Most of the casual Patriots fans probably either never knew or forgot about it already.

Not talking in circles. I am pointing out that Goodell caves to public pressure and he makes stupid decisions based on it (like his Spygate ruling). But on this issue, the public has spoken and no one cares. Hence when Johnson and the Jets get punished it will be a mid round pick swap and a forfeiture of a late pick. Which is the standard punishment for the very few teams stupid enough to get caught tampering when everyone one else does it without punishment.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

Have at it. I am sure that a few dozen Patriots fans who actually care about this shouting from the roof tops should get Goodell to strip Johnson of his ownership. I don't even think the majority of Patriots fans even care about it. Most of the casual Patriots fans probably either never knew or forgot about it already.

Not talking in circles. I am pointing out that Goodell caves to public pressure and he makes stupid decisions based on it (like his Spygate ruling). But on this issue, the public has spoken and no one cares. Hence when Johnson and the Jets get punished it will be a mid round pick swap and a forfeiture of a late pick. Which is the standard punishment for the very few teams stupid enough to get caught tampering when everyone one else does it without punishment.

That's just your latest point after moving the goal posts. Three posts ago your point was there's a large difference in degree of transgression between camera placement and tampering.

 

[Rob0729]

That's just your latest point after moving the goal posts. Three posts ago your point was there's a large difference in degree of transgression between camera placement and tampering.

No it wasn't. Stop putting words in my mouth. You apparently are too slow to get what I am saying.

Tampering is allowed by the NFL as long as you don't do it stupidly. I never said there is a large degree of transgression between that and Spygate which was completely overblown. I have always maintained that filming something that is in plain view of 60-80k people in the stands is a nothing crime.

I am talking about the league's attitude towards tampering and other crimes and the media's and general public's view. They find tampering as standard practice leading up to free agency.

Personally, I think tampering is a far worse crime (and I mean the stuff happening this weekend and not the stupid comments by Johnson that Pats fans are blowing up out of context) that filming defensive signals, deflating footballs, pumping in crowd noise, etc. Unfortunately, I am in the minority on that one.

I have never changed my argument nor moved the goal post. My stance has always been the same. We are just talking different aspects of the same argument.

 

[Rob0729]

Again, if people want to talk about the real point of Curran's article - that the league are hypocrites about defending the integrity of the game because they cherry pick what forms of cheating are bad and what are allowed, I agree 100%. That was his point if you read the article.

Unfortunately, tampering is not only allowed, it is expected by teams as I showed evidence.

My point from the beginning was always that what Johnson did was technically tampering, but it was done from stupidity. Stupidity is not a defense and he deserves to be punished. The punishment will be relatively minor (a swap of mid round picks and loss of a late round pick).

Everything else is posters trying to twist my arguments to trying to prove me wrong, not by disproving my argument, but claiming I am changing my argument. Never happened, never will. My argument has always been the same and never changed.

It's funny that people don't even seem to get Curran's article. He never claimed the league are protecting the Jets because Goodell looks out for him. He is talking about how they are so interested in the PSI levels of footballs yet they look the other way with tampering. It's a point I agree with.

 

[1960Pats]

This thread is like an ice cream that you bought and then dropped on the ground. You try to pick it up and clean it off, but there's just too much crap stuck on it to take another lick.

 

[flasox27]

Pats fans: "Goodell hates the Pats and is out to get him"

Pats Haters: "Goodell is in Kraft's back pocket. He destroyed the tapes to sweep their transgressions under the rug and he will do the same with deflated footballs."

Sorry, Goodell is an incompetent Commissioner in any way other than making the owners money, but if he was out to get the Patriots there is no way he would be Commissioner right now. Kraft stepped up for him in the Ray Rice case and he wouldn't have done it if he had an inkling that he had a bias against his team. And Kraft is no idiot.

Seriously, it stupid conspiracy theory crap to believe everyone in the NFL is against the Patriots. Kensil is against Belichick because Belichick crapped all over him in 2000 when he bolted the Jets to the Pats in a nuclear way. But Goodell has no reason to be out for the Pats.

You might be the last believer that Goodell will give the Pats a fair shake. I wouldn't be too sure that Kraft believes in his honesty anymore after the latest fiasco.

 

[Rob0729]

You might be the last believer that Goodell will give the Pats a fair shake. I wouldn't be too sure that Kraft believes in his honesty anymore after the latest fiasco.

I think Goodell was screw up this investigation because that is what he does. If you listen to talk radio, most of the people seem to expect a small fine (maybe $50-100k) and not much else. So the prevailing attitude seems to think he won't be out to get the Pats.

Kraft was peissed off how the thing was handled (the league refusing to comment while Kensil leaks damaging information with the League unable to stop it). Which I agree with. I don't know if he feels Goodell himself is out to get him. He is outraged on how badly he handled the investigation by his inaction allowing the media to convict the Pats without a single shred of evidence being offered.

In fact, Kraft demanding an apology when the investigation reveals no evidence of deflating balls seems to indicate that the league investigation will not determine any guilt on the Patriots part. So it seems he expects Goodell to not punish the Pats.

I think Goodell is incompetent and will change his opinion whichever way the public opinion blows, but I don't think he is out to get the Patriots. It isn't good business to label the best team in the league cheaters.

 

[flasox27]

I think Goodell was screw up this investigation because that is what he does. If you listen to talk radio, most of the people seem to expect a small fine (maybe $50-100k) and not much else. So the prevailing attitude seems to think he won't be out to get the Pats.

Kraft was peissed off how the thing was handled (the league refusing to comment while Kensil leaks damaging information with the League unable to stop it). Which I agree with. I don't know if he feels Goodell himself is out to get him. He is outraged on how badly he handled the investigation by his inaction allowing the media to convict the Pats without a single shred of evidence being offered.

In fact, Kraft demanding an apology when the investigation reveals no evidence of deflating balls seems to indicate that the league investigation will not determine any guilt on the Patriots part. So it seems he expects Goodell to not punish the Pats.

I think Goodell is incompetent and will change his opinion whichever way the public opinion blows, but I don't think he is out to get the Patriots. It isn't good business to label the best team in the league cheaters.

We will see what Goodell does when the report comes out. My opinions on that have been spelled in detail. As for the Pats being labelled cheaters by the public and media, that ship sailed in 2007.

 

[Rob0729]

We will see what Goodell does when the report comes out. My opinions on that have been spelled in detail. As for the Pats being labelled cheaters by the public and media, that ship sailed in 2007.

My guess is the report will make the league look worse than the Pats. We already know that the only proven case of tampering with footballs thus far was done by a League employee who was already under investigation.

 

[flasox27]

My guess is the report will make the league look worse than the Pats. We already know that the only proven case of tampering with footballs thus far was done by a League employee who was already under investigation.

You have more faith in the investigator than I do. I expect the report like the one exonerating Goodell in the Rice fiasco to be made as instructed.

 

[patman52]

Spygate was typically League reaction to the media and public. Just like everything else they do. They stick their finger in the air and gauge the media and public reaction. Filming signals was considered the equivalent of murder and Goodell reacted as such. The same thing with Ray Rice. The first video got a two game suspension type of reaction from the public (probably more, but I think Goodell underestimated the reaction). The second video was an indefinite suspension reaction.

Tampering is considered jaywalking to the NFL. Everyone does it. It isn't considered a big deal, but if you do it in front of a cop you might get a ticket. That is the attitude of tampering.

No one in the world thinks what Woody Johnson did was a big deal other than Patriots fans. Patriots fans wouldn't have cared either if it was Jerry Jones talking about Jeremy Maclin either. Most people wrote it off as Johnson being stupid. It is just the truth.

Why do you dismiss it as not a big deal, when the owner of a NFL team says that he made a mistake in not signing revis, and would sign him for the deal that pats signed him for. There has never been such a severe case of tampering in the nfl (other than Parcells/Shula)

Chicago called up SF and asked if they wanted to trade for a tagged Briggs, SF said yes and then called the agent to see $$$ reqd. They just contacted the agent for a player from a team that wanted to trade him, not keep him but trade him.

A assistant coach for Detroit said that if another team releases a back up safety he could find them a home. Now this is an assistant coach that has no authority or say so in personnel decisions.

Now compare those transgressions, with what Woody said, The GM that he just fired did not want Revis, and it was a mistake, He wants Revis back and that the 2 year 32mill contract would be fine by him.

1. the man with the final say, wants him.
2. He even mentions that the money the pats can't pay he can.
3. The player in question, plays for his teams most bitter rival
4. he was warned not to do it last year, and now ignored the league ( sounds familar?)
5. the player in question is an All-pro

 

[Rob0729]

Why do you dismiss it as not a big deal, when the owner of a NFL team says that he made a mistake in not signing revis, and would sign him for the deal that pats signed him for. There has never been such a severe case of tampering in the nfl (other than Parcells/Shula)

Chicago called up SF and asked if they wanted to trade for a tagged Briggs, SF said yes and then called the agent to see $$$ reqd. They just contacted the agent for a player from a team that wanted to trade him, not keep him but trade him.

A assistant coach for Detroit said that if another team releases a back up safety he could find them a home. Now this is an assistant coach that has no authority or say so in personnel decisions.

Now compare those transgressions, with what Woody said, The GM that he just fired did not want Revis, and it was a mistake, He wants Revis back and that the 2 year 32mill contract would be fine by him.

1. the man with the final say, wants him.
2. He even mentions that the money the pats can't pay he can.
3. The player in question, plays for his teams most bitter rival
4. he was warned not to do it last year, and now ignored the league ( sounds familar?)
5. the player in question is an All-pro

First, there was no reason for the 49ers to contact Briggs' agent because he was playing under the franchise tag and could not negotiate a deal.

Second, even if a team is offering a player in trade, the team trying to trade for him cannot talk to the player's agent without permission. The 49ers never received any permission and since he could not sign a new deal until the following season, the Bears never expected there would be any contact. So the 49ers were far worse than what Johnson did.

Third, in the last two weeks there has been probably hundreds of cases of worse tampering including with Revis this weekend. Hell, it looks like Miami agreed to terms with Ndamukong Suh about a week ago and have been cutting players so they can fit him under the cap. That is a far worse case of tampering than what Johnson did.

Fourth, if anyone actually listens to the Johnson press can plainly see that Johnson is just an idiot and doesn't know when to shut up. People are making far more of this than it really is. If you think this is the worst case of tampering in league history, you clearly are blowing it out proportion.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

First, there was no reason for the 49ers to contact Briggs' agent because he was playing under the franchise tag and could not negotiate a deal.

Second, even if a team is offering a player in trade, the team trying to trade for him cannot talk to the player's agent without permission. The 49ers never received any permission and since he could not sign a new deal until the following season, the Bears never expected there would be any contact. So the 49ers were far worse than what Johnson did.

Third, in the last two weeks there has been probably hundreds of cases of worse tampering including with Revis this weekend. Hell, it looks like Miami agreed to terms with Ndamukong Suh about a week ago and have been cutting players so they can fit him under the cap. That is a far worse case of tampering than what Johnson did.

Fourth, if anyone actually listens to the Johnson press can plainly see that Johnson is just an idiot and doesn't know when to shut up. People are making far more of this than it really is. If you think this is the worst case of tampering in league history, you clearly are blowing it out proportion.

I don't think anyone is claiming it's the worst case of tampering in league history. But I think we're saying being mentally ******ed like Woody is not grounds for lessening the penalty.

There are hundreds of cases of tampering every year and the majority can't be proven at all. But this is one that is so open and easy, it's insane that we're still talking about it.

It's not the worst. It's just the most obvious. And if we're not going to punish this, then let's get rid of all tampering rules whatsoever, since they mean nothing.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't think anyone is claiming it's the worst case of tampering in league history. But I think we're saying being mentally ******ed like Woody is not grounds for lessening the penalty.

There are hundreds of cases of tampering every year and the majority can't be proven at all. But this is one that is so open and easy, it's insane that we're still talking about it.

It's not the worst. It's just the most obvious. And if we're not going to punish this, then let's get rid of all tampering rules whatsoever, since they mean nothing.

Did you read the post I was responding to? Here is what he wrote:

There has never been such a severe case of tampering in the nfl (other than Parcells/Shula)

And I have said that stupidity is not a valid defense for cheating. I am not arguing that Johnson should be treated lightly for being stupid. I have said he should get what seems to be the standard for tampering.

I am pointing out that there is no effort for the league to even find evidence. Chris Mortensen has already reported that Suh and the Dolphins have agreed to a contract and even gave the terms of the contract. Except even with the legal tampering period, it is tampering to negotiate a deal. So if at 4:01 PM on Tuesday, Suh signs a deal that mirrors the numbers Mort reported today, the league should launch a tampering investigation. There will be enough evidence (more evidence than Deflategate) to at least investigate what clearly looks like cheating. But guess what? The league won't.

The tampering rules mean nothing. Everyone tampers. Teams don't even try to hide it. Everyone knows it goes on. I don't think they should do away with the rules. I think they should enforce them and not just when idiots like Johnson put their foot in their mouth.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Did you read the post I was responding to? Here is what he wrote:



And I have said that stupidity is not a valid defense for cheating. I am not arguing that Johnson should be treated lightly for being stupid. I have said he should get what seems to be the standard for tampering.

I am pointing out that there is no effort for the league to even find evidence. Chris Mortensen has already reported that Suh and the Dolphins have agreed to a contract and even gave the terms of the contract. Except even with the legal tampering period, it is tampering to negotiate a deal. So if at 4:01 PM on Tuesday, Suh signs a deal that mirrors the numbers Mort reported today, the league should launch a tampering investigation. There will be enough evidence (more evidence than Deflategate) to at least investigate what clearly looks like cheating. But guess what? The league won't.

The tampering rules mean nothing. Everyone tampers. Teams don't even try to hide it. Everyone knows it goes on. I don't think they should do away with the rules. I think they should enforce them and not just when idiots like Johnson put their foot in their mouth.

Whoops. I do tend to skip over some of the ridiculous stuff and don't read every post, and I should know better by now that once a thread hits 10+ pages, someone has said something ridiculously insane.

And I agree, the league could and should do more. They don't. But Woody's is just no work required. It's the bare minimum. And if we're not even going to do that, let's just do away with all the rules related to it.

 

[Calhoun44]

Did you read the post I was responding to? Here is what he wrote:



And I have said that stupidity is not a valid defense for cheating. I am not arguing that Johnson should be treated lightly for being stupid. I have said he should get what seems to be the standard for tampering.

I am pointing out that there is no effort for the league to even find evidence. Chris Mortensen has already reported that Suh and the Dolphins have agreed to a contract and even gave the terms of the contract. Except even with the legal tampering period, it is tampering to negotiate a deal. So if at 4:01 PM on Tuesday, Suh signs a deal that mirrors the numbers Mort reported today, the league should launch a tampering investigation. There will be enough evidence (more evidence than Deflategate) to at least investigate what clearly looks like cheating. But guess what? The league won't.

The tampering rules mean nothing. Everyone tampers. Teams don't even try to hide it. Everyone knows it goes on. I don't think they should do away with the rules. I think they should enforce them and not just when idiots like Johnson put their foot in their mouth.

Isn't there a difference (in my mind there is) between a player under contract (Revis) and a free agent. Especially since Woody's comments came about a month ago. I think "when" one tampers should also affect the severity of the punishment, it basically undermined all of that time since the SB (or sooner if the Pats had wanted to negotiate earlier). Could be mistaken, but that seems more severe than what is currently happening with a definite free agent (Suh) as opposed to a most likely type of free agent (Revis).

 

[OhExaulted1]

Why do you dismiss it as not a big deal, when the owner of a NFL team says that he made a mistake in not signing revis, and would sign him for the deal that pats signed him for. There has never been such a severe case of tampering in the nfl (other than Parcells/Shula)

Chicago called up SF and asked if they wanted to trade for a tagged Briggs, SF said yes and then called the agent to see $$$ reqd. They just contacted the agent for a player from a team that wanted to trade him, not keep him but trade him.

A assistant coach for Detroit said that if another team releases a back up safety he could find them a home. Now this is an assistant coach that has no authority or say so in personnel decisions.

Now compare those transgressions, with what Woody said, The GM that he just fired did not want Revis, and it was a mistake, He wants Revis back and that the 2 year 32mill contract would be fine by him.

1. the man with the final say, wants him.
2. He even mentions that the money the pats can't pay he can.
3. The player in question, plays for his teams most bitter rival
4. he was warned not to do it last year, and now ignored the league ( sounds familar?)
5. the player in question is an All-pro

This case is a slam dunk based on the 2 previous rulings in cases where the evidence is undisputeable.

The only question now should be what compensation the Patriots receive. I'll base the pervious cases on a run of the mill value chart.

http://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp?RequestTeam=NE

In the Lance Briggs case SF was shown to have contacted his agent without permission in 2008. Goodell decision was to have them swap 3rd Rd picks #70 (240) for #75(215) for a 25 value pt penalty.

In the 2011 Gunther Cunningham ruling where he openly opined for former Chief players while an employee of the Lions to the Detroit Free Press the decision by Roger was to have them swap 5th Rders #140 (36) for #154 (29.8) for a 7.8 pt swing.

I would say Johnson transgression is more in line with the Cunningham off the cuff remark then it is to the team actually contacting the agent case of SF. That being said the conundrum becomes this-the Jets and Patriots closest swapping spot that would be compareable would be a swap of 4th's. I've factored in the 3 predicted comp picks at the end of Rd 3 http://overthecap.com/projecting-the-compensatory-draft-picks-for-2015/ and come up with swapping #104 (86) for our #131 (41) which would amount to a 45 pt swing, significantly higher than the previous decisions. The reason that it can't be later is the Jets no longer own a 5th (Marshall) or a 6th (Harvin) pick.

One could argue that Johnson, as an owner who would ultimately be writing any checks, named a specific player on NE and therefore his transgression was more egregious than the previous 2 cases warrenting a stiffer penalty. Or it could go a different route and they may schedule them to swap picks next season, which I think would thoroughly annoy Belichick.

I think a reasonable case can be made for a swapping of this years 4th Rders.

 

[patman52]

Spygate was typically League reaction to the media and public. Just like everything else they do. They stick their finger in the air and gauge the media and public reaction. Filming signals was considered the equivalent of murder and Goodell reacted as such. The same thing with Ray Rice. The first video got a two game suspension type of reaction from the public (probably more, but I think Goodell underestimated the reaction). The second video was an indefinite suspension reaction.

Tampering is considered jaywalking to the NFL. Everyone does it. It isn't considered a big deal, but if you do it in front of a cop you might get a ticket. That is the attitude of tampering.

No one in the world thinks what Woody Johnson did was a big deal other than Patriots fans. Patriots fans wouldn't have cared either if it was Jerry Jones talking about Jeremy Maclin either. Most people wrote it off as Johnson being stupid. It is just the truth.

This case is a slam dunk based on the 2 previous rulings in cases where the evidence is undisputeable.

The only question now should be what compensation the Patriots receive. I'll base the pervious cases on a run of the mill value chart.

http://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp?RequestTeam=NE

In the Lance Briggs case SF was shown to have contacted his agent without permission in 2008. Goodell decision was to have them swap 3rd Rd picks #70 (240) for #75(215) for a 25 value pt penalty.

In the 2011 Gunther Cunningham ruling where he openly opined for former Chief players while an employee of the Lions to the Detroit Free Press the decision by Roger was to have them swap 5th Rders #140 (36) for #154 (29.8) for a 7.8 pt swing.

I would say Johnson transgression is more in line with the Cunningham off the cuff remark then it is to the team actually contacting the agent case of SF. That being said the conundrum becomes this-the Jets and Patriots closest swapping spot that would be compareable would be a swap of 4th's. I've factored in the 3 predicted comp picks at the end of Rd 3 http://overthecap.com/projecting-the-compensatory-draft-picks-for-2015/ and come up with swapping #104 (86) for our #131 (41) which would amount to a 45 pt swing, significantly higher than the previous decisions. The reason that it can't be later is the Jets no longer own a 5th (Marshall) or a 6th (Harvin) pick.

One could argue that Johnson, as an owner who would ultimately be writing any checks, named a specific player on NE and therefore his transgression was more egregious than the previous 2 cases warrenting a stiffer penalty. Or it could go a different route and they may schedule them to swap picks next season, which I think would thoroughly annoy Belichick.

I think a reasonable case can be made for a swapping of this years 4th Rders.

I am thinking a swap of 3rds is much more in line. The jets and the pats are bitter rivals and the player is one of the best in the NFL and was under contract.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

First, I cannot sell how low Woody Johnson's intelligence is. Everyone who knows him and is honest about talks about what a complete and utter moron Johnson is. He was asked a question about him regretting not trying to re-sign Revis and he put his foot in his mouth. It wasn't calculated. He is too dumb for that.

And to show how dumb he really is - The Jets were flush with cap space last year, desperately needed a CB, and Revis wanted to come back. If the Jets re-sign him, they would have looked like geniuses because they would have sent Revis to rehab in Tampa and gotten Sheldon Richardson out of the deal.

Now the Jets have tons of holes and are in rebuild mode and are going to overpay for a 30 year old CB who will be past his prime if and when the Jets are good again. Why? Because everyone talked about how stupid the Jets are for not trying to re-sign Revis and letting him go to the Pats. And now Woody wants to rectify that. How is that a smart owner? Or some calculated genius? Revis to the Jets makes little sense other than placate the Jets' fans who killed him for not trying to re-sign him. I think the fact he is going after Revis at all cost just shows how dumb he really is.

And we sound like Patriots haters who complain that Goodell let's the Pats get away with everything and how he is going to ultimate sweep Deflategate under the rug when we complain about Goodell's Jets' favoritism.

The league hasn't issued any punishments yet for Deflategate, Noisegate, Textgate, or the tampering. We have no idea what the Jets could get. To cry about Goodell going easy on the Jets when he hasn't even ruled makes us no better than Patriots haters who kill Goodell for letting Belichick coach in the Super Bowl because of rumors from Deflategate.

I'm sorry. What Johnson said was just dumb. If he truly wanted to tamper with Revis (and if he had half a brain), he would do what the other 31 teams do and do the tampering under the radar at the Combine. If Johnson was purposely tampering with Revis in that press conference, it goes against your theory that he was smart because it is the dumbest way to tamper with a player going. Everyone knows you can tamper just as well without bringing attention to the tampering by just going to dinner with his agent in Indianapolis under the guise of talking about other clients.

I don't think you become a billionaire by being dumb... just saying.