Crucial for us to sign Samuel and Gay!

[spacecrime]

What has Randall Gay done in the last two years to warrant the Pats investing valuable cap dollars for his services? And If they do decide to do what you wish, how many of you will whine and complain about how STUPID they were for investing that money when Gay continues to languish on the IR list.
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493777
2005 he played in 5 games, racked up 12 tackles and one pass defensed
2006 he played in 3 games and racked up 2 tackles.

If the Pats do decide to keep him how much and how long should the contract be? Look I like Gay, I too think that he did well for us in 2004. But that was a long time ago, and he hasn't done much since.

By this logic we should cut Rodney harrison

 

[fgssand]

We need to keep Gay, whether we sign Asante or not.

Nobody else is out there to sign....Tory James....please. Why do you think the Jets brought him in??

Trying to draft and play rookie CB's is a huge gamble, one I am not comfortable with at all.

Signing Gay and hoping he can stay healthy is our very best chance at having quality depth at the CB position.

Signing Gay & Asante for this year gives us our very best chance of playing a game in Arizona in Feb.

 

[Rob0729]

Everybody seems to be talking about getting the 1st round pick for Samuel and the 2nd round pick for Gay. My hope is that we re-sign both of these guys back. Having Samuel and a healthy Gay would be critical for us this year. This would really prevent us from having any glaring holes to fill for our Superbowl run. If we loose them both then we would have to replace our #1 CB and probably our #1 nickel. Remember Gay was the starting CB in our second superbowl victory (I think) and did a darn good job too. If he remains healthy this year, he would probably the comeback player of the year for our team. If we can do this, then we can really focus on drafting a LB and then start taking the best player available approach.

We won a Super Bowl in 2004 with Gay (as a rookie undrafted free agent) and Samuel (a second year player who was playing over his head) starting. Right now, Ellis Hobbs is better than either of those two were in 2004. We still managed to get by.

Ideally, it would be good to keep Samuel, but not at the price he is looking for. There are several CBs in the draft who have the potential to be signficantly better than Samuel (who was considered an average to above average at best CB until December of last year) and could start immediately like Leon Hall, Darrelle Revis, Aaron Ross, and Chris Houston. So if we can get good value for Samuel and he refuses to sign the tender offer or take a realistic deal, we will be better off going with one of these guys in the draft.

As for Gay, we haven't had him in two years. If we lose him now, I don't see the big deal. I would rather have a second rounder than Gay. Trading an undrafted free agent who spent two of his three years on IR for a second round is a coupe in my books.

The Pats have never had great CBs other than Ty Law. They have made some very average CBs look good like Tyrone Poole and O-T-I-S Smith look good. If we can win a Super Bowl with Troy Brown being our nickelback and an rookie undrafted free agent as our starter (or for that matter Tyrone Poole or Otis Smith in the other Super Bowls), I think people are overblowing our crucial need to get Samuel and Gay back.

I think getting Samuel back is important, but not by giving away the farm to do it. I am indifferent to bringing Gay back. He is nice depth if healthy, but I would rather have a second round pick. Won't be upset either way we go on that one.

 

[edzo44]

As for the Pats tendering Gay, the Pats had no choice to tender Gay a second round tender. Since Gay was an undrafted free agent, the Pats would get no compensation if they tendered Gay to a lower tender and someone signed him away from the Pats. The lower tender offer compensation is based on the round the player is drafted in and Gay wasn't drafted. Without having to give the Pats a draft pick in compensation, Gay would have drawn plenty of interest by many teams. The extra $500k that it cost to give Gay a higher tender was worth the risk of not losing Gay for nothing, but not neccessarily mean the Pats are all that high on the guy.

That is a very astute observation and it does explain a good logical BB style of doing something because it is a smart move and in the team's best interests. One way or the other we get something for him be it a second round pick or continued years of service. :rocker:

 

[MoLewisrocks]

If signing either of these players was "crucial", they'd be signed. We went through this with Branch and Givens last year. Would retaining them have helped us last season? Maybe, but maybe not. Givens might have missed almost the entire season here too, and we likely wouldn't have picked up Caldwell. And Law might have helped more than Branch who could have helped add a first down or two in Indy, or both could have just as easily also had the flu. One thing for sure is had we signed all 3 we wouldn't have the money to extend Koppen or tag Asante, nor would we have had the money to sign Thomas to augment the aging LB corps or Welker to replace what Troy long represented.

Gay was tendered at above his value level because if we tendered him any lower there is no compensation for him, although we could have still matched any offer. If retaining him was "crucial" they certainly could have tendered him lower or higher. All it would have cost them is half a million on the cap, and cap we have. They also likely could have signed him to a long term deal fairly cheaply given his circumstances. They tendered him mid level so we would either have him or have substantial draft value with which to replace him.

They tried to sign Samuel last year for just under $5M per, but he wanted just over $6M. They have tried to sign him this year for just around $6M per. He appears to now want upwards of $9M+ per year. See a trend emerging? Signing guys who want to GET PAID is like chasing your tail. You may think you're getting closer, but in fact you seldom are. The Pat's are not only successful under Belioli, they are financially disciplined. They don't get ascared like their fan base. It's unlikely they will sign this player long term unless he lowers his sights dramatically because they aren't going to deviate from theirs substantially - they never do.

So the options with Asante realistically are play him at almost $8M for 1 year or trade him for someone who can and/or for draft compensation with which you can acquire someone who under your tutelage should play reasonably well now and perhaps even better over the course of his first 4-5 seasons and use the money saved to upgrade at other positions across the roster or retain more reasonable players - all of which will support that new player. They have already spent money on Thomas, who should do just that for whatever corners are playing for this team.

 

[Rob0729]

By this logic we should cut Rodney harrison

How do you get that logic? How are Gay and Harrison similiar?

Harrison has been in the league for a decade and has been an All Pro quality safety for most of it. Gay has been in the league three years and been on on the IR for most of two of them. Gay wasn't drafted because he was injury prone and he lost his starting job due to his injuries. Gay has been injured for MOST of his Pro career. He has missed 24 games in the last two years and has played 23 out of 48 possible games in his career because he has been injury prone.

Again, tell me how the Harrison and Gay situation are the same?

 

[Remix 6]

Everybody seems to be talking about getting the 1st round pick for Samuel and the 2nd round pick for Gay. My hope is that we re-sign both of these guys back. Having Samuel and a healthy Gay would be critical for us this year. This would really prevent us from having any glaring holes to fill for our Superbowl run. If we loose them both then we would have to replace our #1 CB and probably our #1 nickel. Remember Gay was the starting CB in our second superbowl victory (I think) and did a darn good job too. If he remains healthy this year, he would probably the comeback player of the year for our team. If we can do this, then we can really focus on drafting a LB and then start taking the best player available approach.

Samuel needs to be resigned imo but Gay doesnt. He hasnt seen the field for quiet a long time and he did start SB days but he got torched in SB by TO (not an easy task for any CB) but hes not a critical need. Id gladly let him walk for a 2nd rounder

 

[pats1]

I'd pay the Jets to sign Gay to get that 2nd rounder.

 

[Krazy Koz]

Restricted free agent CB Randall Gay left New York without receiving an offer sheet.
The same is true for Bengals T Stacy Andrews. Both players would cost a second-round pick to sign, so we suspect the Jets are just getting a head start on free agency next season.
Source: Newsday

 

[Pats726]

Restricted free agent CB Randall Gay left New York without receiving an offer sheet.
The same is true for Bengals T Stacy Andrews. Both players would cost a second-round pick to sign, so we suspect the Jets are just getting a head start on free agency next season.
Source: Newsday

Just messing with us...typical Mangina...I am sure BB will remember this as well..I still would like James signed...

 

[Jimke]

Terrence, for a rookie you show a lot more street smarts than a lot of the

veteran members in this forum who are calling for the trade of Asante

by draft day. With regard to Randall Gay, I think that he has a history of

injuries dating back to college. This is why he wasn't drafted. The only

way he becomes a crucial part of the team is if we lose Asante. With

regard to Asante, we can kiss our hopes for another Superbowl away

if we lose him. Payton Manning will pick us apart in the playoffs if we don't

have Asante. We have to play a waiting game with Asante and play the

odds that he will not pass up 8 million dollars and instead hold out and

lose $500,000 each regular season game day missed.

 

[Pats726]

we can kiss our hopes for another Superbowl away

if we lose him.

Is Brady gone?? Did I miss something??

 

[CrayzeeNepFan1]

In my opinion, Assante has to be made an example of the same way Terry Glenn was, the same way Anthony Branch was and the same way any player who acts above his worth and threatens the nuance of the team atmosphere that Bellichick instilled should be. If we give overpay to this guy, it's gonna make every soon-to-be free agent think that they can get the Patriots to budge by threatening a sit-out or airing our laundry to the media. I believe that is enough for him to get his walking papers. His agent is killing his chance of being a Pat if this is him and not Mr. Get Paid Tattoo moving his own lips.

We need to make an example to the rest of the NFL that not only is playing in the league a great honor but playing for a dynasty like the Patriots is one as well. If you don't wanna be on that ship; Milloy, Law, Woody, then you can rot without ever being close to holding up that Lombardi because it isn't the ingredients that make the wizards magic work, it's the wizard who makes the magic work.

With BB as our coach, and call me delusional, I believe we could go in the playoffs with Matt Cassel as our starting QB, Kelvin Kight and Bam Childress as our starting WR's and still have a chance to sniff the superbowl.
Because at the end of the day Assante doesn't deserve 10 million per year, BB does!

Like BB has done so many times, he will do what's best for the team and the organization and trade Samuel to the highest bidder if they can't come up with a fair compromise. I would be just fine if we got a second only for the guy but I feel we'd get much more.

 

[pats1]

Is Brady gone?? Did I miss something??

He was traded to the Texans for a conditional 7th rounder.

 

[Ring 6]

In my opinion, Assante has to be made an example of the same way Terry Glenn was, the same way Anthony Branch was and the same way any player who acts above his worth and threatens the nuance of the team atmosphere that Bellichick instilled should be. If we give overpay to this guy, it's gonna make every soon-to-be free agent think that they can get the Patriots to budge by threatening a sit-out or airing our laundry to the media. I believe that is enough for him to get his walking papers. His agent is killing his chance of being a Pat if this is him and not Mr. Get Paid Tattoo moving his own lips.

We need to make an example to the rest of the NFL that not only is playing in the league a great honor but playing for a dynasty like the Patriots is one as well. If you don't wanna be on that ship; Milloy, Law, Woody, then you can rot without ever being close to holding up that Lombardi because it isn't the ingredients that make the wizards magic work, it's the wizard who makes the magic work.

With BB as our coach, and call me delusional, I believe we could go in the playoffs with Matt Cassel as our starting QB, Kelvin Kight and Bam Childress as our starting WR's and still have a chance to sniff the superbowl.
Because at the end of the day Assante doesn't deserve 10 million per year, BB does!

Like BB has done so many times, he will do what's best for the team and the organization and trade Samuel to the highest bidder if they can't come up with a fair compromise. I would be just fine if we got a second only for the guy but I feel we'd get much more.

So what you are saying is we should MAKE AN EXAMPLE of any scumbag who doesnt think that he should play for the Patriots for whatever they decide he should make, based on your intuition that BB thinks that players should feel it is an honor to play for this team, and it is offensive that they want this team to pay what another would.

First, we wouldn't be in a position to act as arrogantly as you think the team should if that intuition were correct to begin. Secondly, there is absolutely no evidence in BBs history that he will do anything other than pay the going market rate IF HE AGREES WITH THE MARKET ON THE ABILITY LEVEL OF THE PLAYER.
You are mistaking sound talent evaluation with some grandiose idea that there are players out there who are beating down the door to accept less money to be a Patriot. That just is not realistic.

Being a team player has absolutely nothing to do with contract negotiations.
The precedent you set by paying Samuel based on his value, is that he is worth that value. No more, no less.
The precedent you set by trading him (especially on the heels of Branch, and with money being the issue in the media) may be that players feel you undervalue all of them.
It is much worse for the future of the organization if players feel they will not be rewarded for what they do, that the team expects them to take less for the honor of being here, than that players think the team pays what the market is.

"Making an example" of Samuel with the attitude you explained it as, would be telling 52 other players that the day is going to come when your contract is up, and we are better than paying you your worth.
Players will be rushing to exit, not lining up to be part of the organization that 'understands' players who expect the team to pay them their value are ***holes.

 

[CrayzeeNepFan1]

I agree with most of everything you said Andy.
Think about this for a minute besides BB how many coaches in the NFL is it a real honor to play for?
How many coaches can turn a Randall Gay, or a washed up Antwoin Smith into superbowl Winning Caliber players?
The fact of the matter is were not the Oakland Raiders or the Detroit Lions were the new england patriots led by Bill Bellichick.
Believe it or not I think Alot of players have already said how much money do you really need?
At the end of a typical nfl career what get's more attention at the dinner table the extra millions you took and played well but in obscurity without sniffing the playoffs but were compensated real well.
Or is it the conversation that you won x many world championships throughout your impressive career but still were paid well.
Pioli said it the best when he said we want guys who love football and want to be here.
Trust me theres alot of guy's that would leave alot of money on the table to leave Cam's Dolphins to be one of Bill's Patriot.
You heard what Welker said it was frustrating to lose to them all the time and watch them win and I knew I wanted to be a part of that team.
As long as their are other smart players like Wes the patriots will be fine if we let overrated corners go to lock up 3 or 4 starters at the price we could get one defensive back that excelled in BB's Defense and his Gameplanning not ASSantes!
Remember out of the draft Assante was being compared with the upside of ray crocket well he went past expectations but for only one year!
I remember Law saying how impressive Assante was and I never saw it I saw a medicore corner and i was creaming for Law to be back and still feel that ASSante will be exposed this year more than ever and he won't be in a Patriot uniform when he get's dubbed Duane Starks part 2.
The ribbing will be hellacious because that team will give the farm to assante hoping for a Champ bailey but will get a average player 80 percent of the time a below average starter 10 percent of the time and every contract season someone who makes alot of highlight reels but was left out of the probowl for a reason he gives up to many passes Champ Bailey, Ty Law he is not.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree with most of everything you said Andy.
Think about this for a minute besides BB how many coaches in the NFL is it a real honor to play for?
How many coaches can turn a Randall Gay, or a washed up Antwoin Smith into superbowl Winning Caliber players?
The fact of the matter is were not the Oakland Raiders or the Detroit Lions were the new england patriots led by Bill Bellichick.
Believe it or not I think Alot of players have already said how much money do you really need?
At the end of a typical nfl career what get's more attention at the dinner table the extra millions you took and played well but in obscurity without sniffing the playoffs but were compensated real well.
Or is it the conversation that you won x many world championships throughout your impressive career but still were paid well.
Pioli said it the best when he said we want guys who love football and want to be here.
Trust me theres alot of guy's that would leave alot of money on the table to leave Cam's Dolphins to be one of Bill's Patriot.
You heard what Welker said it was frustrating to lose to them all the time and watch them win and I knew I wanted to be a part of that team.
As long as their are other smart players like Wes the patriots will be fine if we let overrated corners go to lock up 3 or 4 starters at the price we could get one defensive back that excelled in BB's Defense and his Gameplanning not ASSantes!
Remember out of the draft Assante was being compared with the upside of ray crocket well he went past expectations but for only one year!
I remember Law saying how impressive Assante was and I never saw it I saw a medicore corner and i was creaming for Law to be back and still feel that ASSante will be exposed this year more than ever and he won't be in a Patriot uniform when he get's dubbed Duane Starks part 2.
The ribbing will be hellacious because that team will give the farm to assante hoping for a Champ bailey but will get a average player 80 percent of the time a below average starter 10 percent of the time and every contract season someone who makes alot of highlight reels but was left out of the probowl for a reason he gives up to many passes Champ Bailey, Ty Law he is not.

I dont get your point.
Are you saying Samuel sucks? It sounds that way, and I strongly disagree. You are comparing him to Duane Starks?

I think its ludicrous to imply that there are players throughout the NFL who think that if they could just find a way to the Patriots they would win, and they have no chance by staying where they are. Have you ever played a sport? No one thinks that way. They are all thinking their team can win. You are implying players sit throughout the NFL believing their team is less than the Patriots. I have seen the exact opposite, where many players berate the Patriots when they lose to them.
What does everyone who leaves the Pats say? They are going to such and such team and trying to win a championship.

I think you have a way off-base fairy tale understanding of this. Every year there are dozens and dozens of free agents, only a small percentage of which even make contact with the Pats. Your post seems to think everyone of them would beg for the chance.

You aren't winning in the NFL without cornerbacks. Somehow I think your negative opinion of Samuel started when a contract number was attached to his name. Are you telling me when he was picking off passes this season you said you hated him and wanted him cut?

One final point. You said Asante's success was all BBs doing and none of asantes.
If that were the case, why have so many other corners failed under BB?
Why didnt Starks, Warfield, Antwan Harris, Brock Williams, Tom Knight, Shaw, Moreland, Poteat, Buckley, and on and on, just step in and 'look good because of BB"?

I think your emotions have overwhelmed your football obhectivity.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree with most of everything you said Andy.
Think about this for a minute besides BB how many coaches in the NFL is it a real honor to play for?
How many coaches can turn a Randall Gay, or a washed up Antwoin Smith into superbowl Winning Caliber players?
The fact of the matter is were not the Oakland Raiders or the Detroit Lions were the new england patriots led by Bill Bellichick.
Believe it or not I think Alot of players have already said how much money do you really need?
At the end of a typical nfl career what get's more attention at the dinner table the extra millions you took and played well but in obscurity without sniffing the playoffs but were compensated real well.
Or is it the conversation that you won x many world championships throughout your impressive career but still were paid well.
Pioli said it the best when he said we want guys who love football and want to be here.
Trust me theres alot of guy's that would leave alot of money on the table to leave Cam's Dolphins to be one of Bill's Patriot.
You heard what Welker said it was frustrating to lose to them all the time and watch them win and I knew I wanted to be a part of that team.
As long as their are other smart players like Wes the patriots will be fine if we let overrated corners go to lock up 3 or 4 starters at the price we could get one defensive back that excelled in BB's Defense and his Gameplanning not ASSantes!
Remember out of the draft Assante was being compared with the upside of ray crocket well he went past expectations but for only one year!
I remember Law saying how impressive Assante was and I never saw it I saw a medicore corner and i was creaming for Law to be back and still feel that ASSante will be exposed this year more than ever and he won't be in a Patriot uniform when he get's dubbed Duane Starks part 2.
The ribbing will be hellacious because that team will give the farm to assante hoping for a Champ bailey but will get a average player 80 percent of the time a below average starter 10 percent of the time and every contract season someone who makes alot of highlight reels but was left out of the probowl for a reason he gives up to many passes Champ Bailey, Ty Law he is not.

By the way, how did you agree with most of everything I said when I disagreed with everything you said?

 

[Ring 6]

Terrence, for a rookie you show a lot more street smarts than a lot of the

veteran members in this forum who are calling for the trade of Asante

by draft day. With regard to Randall Gay, I think that he has a history of

injuries dating back to college. This is why he wasn't drafted. The only

way he becomes a crucial part of the team is if we lose Asante. With

regard to Asante, we can kiss our hopes for another Superbowl away

if we lose him. Payton Manning will pick us apart in the playoffs if we don't

have Asante. We have to play a waiting game with Asante and play the

odds that he will not pass up 8 million dollars and instead hold out and

lose $500,000 each regular season game day missed.

There is a very simple fact here. When we open the season in September starting at corner will either be Asante Samuel or someone who is not as good.
Point blank, that is a fact, unless someone can show me who the upgrade would be, which i doubt anyone can.

It surprises me sometimes that the consensus of this board puts more emphasis on money than talent. It is very unique for sportsfans. I guess in many ways its a good thing, because it involves thinking long term.
But what I do not understand is where is the tangible negative in signing Samuel to a long term contract that may make him one of the highest paid DBs in the NFL?
I mean, if you could show me that the $$ spent on Samuel would be better spent elsewhere, I am all ears. If you could show me that paying Samuel market value would put us in bad cap shape down the road, I would listen. But, as far as I can see this teams long term cap health is excellent, and basically, the CAN AFFORD to sign him.
Now, perhaps there is an argument such as this:
Samuel is a good corner. But whereever you would rank him at his position, we have many players ranked higher at theirs. (Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Colvin, Thomas, Vrabel, Harrison, Light, Mankins, Watson, Koppen, Brady, Maroney (as he develops) all could be in that argument). So if you pay top dollar for Samuel, then all the others will eventually be asking top dollar and expect it.
OK. But, you cannot run a franchise that way. There is absolutely no doubt that some of those players will leave. And regardless of what happens with samuel, that wont impact it at all. Why? because the MARKET will impact it. The Pats do not operate in a vaccuum. When those players contracts are up, they will expect market value. I would argue they are MORE LIKELY to stay if you keep your best players even at a high price, because they are on a team more likely to win.

I could care less about Asante Samuels value system regarding money. I keep hearing how people are trying to assign a value system to him, and have decided for him what enough money is, and decided he is a jerk because his idea of enough money is higher than theirs.
I care about the team we put on the field in 2007, and I expect it tobe one that wins a SB. Having asante Samuel on the field gives us a better chance of winning a SB. That is the most important concern.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Terrence, for a rookie you show a lot more street smarts than a lot of the

veteran members in this forum who are calling for the trade of Asante

by draft day.

Few are calling for the trade except with the caveat that if he cannot be signed long term it would be preferable to waiting until the eve of the season to trade him for a 2008 pick. Been there, done that.

With regard to Randall Gay, I think that he has a history of

injuries dating back to college. This is why he wasn't drafted. The only

way he becomes a crucial part of the team is if we lose Asante.

The only thing that would make Randall Gay a crucial part of this team is if you had a written guarantee that he would not only play at the level he did in 2004, but that he could do it for 19 games. Other than that, he's just a warm body with potential, which is a slot a drafted CB could fill with ease.

Withregard to Asante, we can kiss our hopes for another Superbowl away

if we lose him. Payton Manning will pick us apart in the playoffs if we don't

have Asante.

LOL talk about melodramatic... And weren't we picked apart (as well as run on) for three quarters of the AFCC game even with Asante starting at LCB? We've lost our last 3 matchups with Peyton regardless of who our starting CB's were because they can't beat Peyton and his WR's unless we have a front 7 who can stop the run and stick with his slot WR and occasionally knock him on his ass.

We have to play a waiting game with Asante and play the

odds that he will not pass up 8 million dollars and instead hold out and

lose $500,000 each regular season game day missed.

BB allowed a WR and FA CB to hold him hostage for most of last off season. They say those who fail to learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. One thing BB cannot tolerate is players making the same mental mistakes over and over. I think he will hold himself to the same standard and be pro active rather than reactive this time around. He can't afford to allow two players in consecutive seasons to hold this team up as they embark on another teambuilding endeavor. It's not fair to the rest of their teamates who deserve to know where they stand from day 1 in mini camp. They will reach some sort of understanding with Asante before camp, and likely before the draft, whether that be to take the tag off the table for another contract type season or trade him for 2007 draft picks or trade him for a player and 2008 picks.