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Credit the Iraqis

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Dec 28, 2005.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The leadership of Iraq seems quite liberal for the Middle East. The elections were fair; the majority is working hard to reach out to the minority; they've been open about torture and abuse in their prisons; and they have a free press. This is why I hope the new Iraq succeeds (though I think the odds of that are not good).

    If the new Iraq succeeds, and US continues on its current path, maybe someday the the Iraqis will invade us to save us from a government that engages in torture and kidnapping, spies on its people, discriminates against minorities, holds corrupt elections, and lies to its people and the world. When that happens, the streets will be lined with Americans waving Iraqi flags.
  2. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Please tell me you are joking. The US takes out a dictator and frees a country and you give them all the credit for the system that was given to them by the US while simultaniously sh!tting on the US. You guys can't have it both ways, you can't whine and cry about the war and at the same time credit its results. Amazing, is this the new spin for the liberal america haters? I do not know why I read this board, I try to stay away but every once in a while somebody post something that is just ignorant hatred for his/her country, just like the garbage posted by you in this thread!
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    mgcolby, why aren't we living up to our own values in this country? It is true that the government spies on us without even the oversight of the courts. It is true that our government has kidnapped and tortured people. Those are terrible crimes, and should not be defended. My point was that the Iraqi government seems to be adhering to our values during war better than we are.
  4. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    Unfortunately, the incipient civil war will ultimately determine who prevails. Not the December election. Its probably best we get out of the way while they decide by force who governs them.
  5. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They spy on people that are suspected of being involved with terrorism. Do you think your name will be found on abu dabi's laptop in pakistan anytime soon? If the answer is no then what are you worried about? Next, there is a court that oversees the wiretaps. Contrary to popular "opinion" they get warrants from the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. Do you realize that same court issued 1003 warrants in 2000?

    Who did we kidnap and torture?

    My point is the far left does nothing but b!tch and moan. They ignore the history on subjects and issues that they believe will get them more votes. If the very "intelligent" liberals (because only the white republican south have stupid members) actually took the time to conjure up some solutions to the major issues being faced by this country, instead of criticizing and attacking the solutions that are being presented by the other side; then you might actually be taken serious. IMO the hatred the far left has for Bush is spilling over into your opinion of your country which can be and often is percieved as anti-american stances. The far left is losing on major issues because noone takes all the whining seriously and you are bringing down the democratic party with you. For the Dems sake they better hope Warner or someone of his caliber gets the nomination by the DNC in 08' other wise guys like you patters will be on here b!tching about another republican president until 2012.
  6. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    The left is consumed with hissey fits over imagined civil liberty violations. Their panties are atwist and there's no stoping them. Certainly not with facts. Meanwhile their blatant disregard for domestic security keeps them from running the country, except via filibuster.
  7. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    Why does the reich hate america so much?
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Exactly. As long as Bush uses the FISA court, I have no issue, and I don't think there are many liberals who do have issues. The problem is, Bush hasn't been using the FISA court. That's what this whole issue is about.

    Well, the torture is pretty well documented at Abu Ghraib, and there's is a lot of evidence that we either shipped suspects to places where torture is legal or possibly engaged in torture in places like Gitmo. Further, there have been several cases of people being kidnapped.

    http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,341636,00.html

    Liberals certainly have solutions. After all, many of the solutions already in place (such as social security, OSAH, veterans benefits, etc.) were enacted by liberals. But, right now, since liberals aren't in power, their main focus has to be to fight the destructive policies of Bush.

    The hatred thing is silly. I think it's projection by those who hated Clinton; they're now acting like the left hates Bush. The left by and large does not have a personal hatred for Bush, but does regard his policies as destructive. I think the Democratic Party will do just fine. The left is helping the Party find its backbone.

    mgcolby, to reduce what I say to terms like "b!tching about Bush" would be the same as me accusing you of being love-blinded by Bush. Why you make excuses for illegal wiretaps, torture, a war started because of incompetence, deficit spending, etc. is beyong me, but I'll assume there's more to it than an infatuation for Mr. Bush.
  9. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Patters this whole board is filled with liberals b!tching and yes whining and complaining to me is b!itching. I don't have an infatuation with Bush, but I don't just blindly oppose everything he proposes. There are things that he does that I do not agree with just like Clinton did things I did not agree with as well as things I did. If I have an ifatuation with the people I voted for then that list would include Clinton, Gore and Bush, but I don't. I vote for the the guy I think will do the best job. Have you guys ever pondered why you are not in power? It couldn't be because moronic anti-americans such as Dean speak for you could it? It couldn't be because you guys claim to be tolerant of everyone, but yet are the first people running to the court to get things that you disagree with outlawed or protest other peoples freedom of speech because you don't like what they have to say? It is a double standard that most Americans recognize and dislike which hurts the Dems from getting Independent votes. Warner is someone that I would consider voting for and he is someone that could probably win a few key states in the South for the Dems. But I would be amazed if he made it out of the primaries. If the Libs become the backbone of the Democratic party then the Dems are doomed for a long time.

    We don't kidnap terrorists we capture them. I couldn't get your link to work so I am not sure what that article stated. Not that I would probably hold to much stock in an international report about the US. I am aware of the accusations made by the press about secret prisons, but have yet to see any proof (not saying there hasn't been, I have just not read or seen it). Again the wiretaps were on a handfull of people who were known terrorists. This is an argument that we will not see eye to eye on they are bad guys plain and simple and if saved one citizens life then I am for it. I have no reason to worry about the government spying on me because I have nothing to hide. People blow this stuff way out of proportion for political gain. The Intel oversight commitee recieved the names of every one of the people that were wiretapped. Why didn't they come running to the media then? It is useless to even post in here because it is the same argument all the time Bush bad, Bush did this so it must be bad. Please find one post on here from a liberal saying something good about Bush. Just one! This board is full of libs b!tching about the way things are because they can't get their way. If the republicans were doing the same thing then I would state that as well, Harry is probably the most "outspoken" republican on here but he pretty much offsets NEM. The problem that I see when I debate with folks on here is that most of you guys are so far to the left that I seem like a right-winger as would most independents to you guys. The farthest to the right I go is on the war and killing the bad guys; anyway possible just get the job done.
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Oh, pleez, are you not noticing that that goes on on both sides? Do you ever read the posts by patriotspride, PFIEL, and Harry Boy? Plus, liberals are not b!itching about the b!itching, which is what the righties do, liberals are talking about real issues.

    I did not say you had an infatuation, I was objecting to your trying to reduce fair minded points into "b!tching" about Bush. I thought that was unfair of you, and unlike you.

    I don't know what you are referring to? Are you talking about the issue of separation of church and state? Where are liberals using the courts to deny people freedom of speech?

    As far as the liberals go, right now they're defending their flank -- trying to protect women's rights, separation of church and state, civil rights, programs for the poor, and Social Security. They are largely succeeding, because by and large the American people like those aspects of liberalism.

    mgcolby, liberalism is a political philosophy that like conservativism because more or less relevant depending on the times. By the way, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you voted for Hillary in the next election. Hillary is cosponsoring a bill to ban flag burning and has been getting awards from veterans groups for her work on those issues. (While I'm now supporting Russ Feingold, I still like Hillary a lot , because I think a woman president would liberalize the country by empowering women -- who tend to be more liberal).

    I think we've admitted that we have secret prisons, and there is certainly at least some evidence that we've engaged in torture and kidnapping. Given what came out of Abu Ghraib and the fact that the administration is illegally spying on American citizens, I think anything is possible. This administration acts believing its power is unchecked, and so far that that has proven true.

    I really think you should read a couple articles on this issue. I think the point of the Republicans and Democrats who object to these wiretaps is that we have a system of checks and balances; we have systems in place to protect the American people from a despot; we have laws. At what point would you say the President has overstepped his bounds?

    A political forum is a place for debate. Besides, there's very little good I can think that Bush has done. You have some sense of my politics. Can you think of an example. The only one I can think of offhand is Bush's support for major government funding to rebuild communities destroyed by Hurricane Katrina. If you want to start a thread about that, go ahead, but I think it will just be rather boring.

    I'm not sure in what way you find anyone here far to the left. But, I think a lot of us believe Bush is an exceptionally bad president. For the longest time, I thought Reagan was worse because he was racist, but now I think Bush is incompetent and that's why so many things have gone wrong in his term.
  11. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    THANKS TO GEORGE W BUSH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

    "FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY WE'RE FREE AT LAST"
    "THANK YOU PRESIDENT BUSH"
  12. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not far left???

    * Some posters have said they're socialists - that's not far left???
    * Reagan a racist, not a looney leftie view?
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Pissah, there's plenty of evidence Reagan was a racist, and I'm not going to bother to document it yet again. As far as socialists go, that's a fairly broad term. Communists are far left, socialists as in social democrats may or may not be far left.
  14. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What did Reagan do that was Racist :confused:
  15. Chevy

    Chevy Rookie

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    Did NEM steal your password?
  16. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    Chevy, I'm just adopting the tactics of the reich. That is, if you disagree with the direction this country is taking, then you hate america. Well, I'm of the belief that if you don't care about the gutting of the constitution of this great nation, then you must hate america.
  17. pats-blue

    pats-blue Rookie

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    Actually I would like to hear how Reagan was racist too, I have never heard that one before
  18. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I DOUBT WE WILL GET AN ANSWER. THE LEFT LIBERAL SORE LOSERS LOVE TO PLAY THE "RACE CARD", IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH THEM THEY NIT PICK AT EVERY LITTLE THING YOU SAY TRYING TO "MAKE" YOU SOUND RACIST.

    THE RACE CARD IS ONE OF THE "BUSH HATERS' FAVORITE WEAPONS.

    THESE ARE THE WORDS THEY LOVE TO THROW AROUND:
    NAZI
    KKK
    SKINHEAD
    BIGOT
    REDNECK
    AND THE "MINORITY" BUSH HATERS LOVE TO CALL THE CAUCASIAN'S "WHITE MOTHER FU CKERS"
    ALL THESE "NAME CALLERS" VOTED FOR THAT LYING TRAITOR "FONDA" KERRY
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I've posted the info at least a few times with links. This time I'll just sum up, and if you want, you do the research. While Reagan's policies were generally unfriendly to blacks, his specific examples of racism include:
    - He launched his presidential campaign in Philadelphia, MS, then known only as the place where three civil rights workers were killed. This was done to send a strong message to white southerners, and later on campaign aids would admit as much.
    - He supported South African Apartheid.
    - He made up lies about "welfare queens" who had babies so they could get more money and drive around in Cadillacs.

    The more complex examples of his racism include:
    - Affirmative Action, which he opposed, without offering an alternative.
    - The notion of "reverse discrimination," which rallied some to white rights issues.
    - Cutbacks to educational, health, and urban development programs.

    There's of course much more, when you have a senile monster like him in office for 8 years. I will say this about Reagan: He deserves credit for acting like a liberal when it came to working with Mr. Gorbachev.
  20. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Reagan was a sensible intelligent man, evrything you posted with the exception of health & education and I would love to hear "his side" of that one.
    It all sounds like plain "COMMON SENSE" to me, but of course I'm not a "hand wringing, knee jerk liberal"

    South Africa is now a "Hell Hole", what is wrong with "white rights", affirmative action is an insult to Black people just as forced busing was and it is also Racist.

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