Welcome to PatsFans.com

Cowboys Defensive TD Was An Incomplete Pass

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by JDSal45, Oct 14, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    That play where the Cowboys scored on the fumble should have been reviewed. It was an incomplete pass. Brady pumped and never tucked the ball away. In that situation, when the ball hits the ground its incomplete. No exceptions. We all know this in New England. And the exact same thing was called in Cleveland's favor last week against us. Classic tuck rule. Watch the play, Brady pumps (arm moves forward)....moves a bit in the pocket, ball is knocked out. But he NEVER tucks the ball away....a key to the rule.

    Incomplete pass, should have been reviewed. That was a mistake by the Patriots coaches.

    J D Sal
  2. Gumby

    Gumby Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2004
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    I think there has to be some kind of logical time limit or action rule on the tuck rule.

    if the qb makes a football move after pumping and the ball doesnt come out of his hands; then he is obvoiously a runner not a passer.

    if he stands there and pumps and then gets another 3 secs to stand in the pocket before he is hit; it doesn t make sense you can call that by the tuck rule.

    I think it only makes logical sense if the two events (the pump and the strip) are in close time proximity.
  3. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    One caveat, its unclear if the ball went forward or backwards. I think it went forward, but its close.

    J D Sal
  4. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    No, there is no time limit. The amount of time that passed last week between Anderson's pump and the ball coming out was longer last week, as was the distance he scrambled after the pump.

    J D Sal
  5. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    7,384
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +9 / 0 / -0

    The whole point of the tuck rule is to take ANY judgment out of the hands of the refs. It was a tuck play, TEXTBOOK, I believe. Oh well. No big deal.
  6. He Ban Me

    He Ban Me Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Tha ball was knocked out of his hand by the defender. IIRC, that same defender scooped it up.
  7. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    That makes no difference. It would be a tuck rule. Except now I'm thinking it may have gone backwards, which DOES make a difference. And its close enough I don't think they'd call it on review since they didn't call it on the field.

    J D Sal
  8. He Ban Me

    He Ban Me Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0


    Come to think of it, I don't think any of those FG's Folk hit actually went through the uprights. Dude, Brady pumped, brought it back, and took off. The defender knocked the ball out of Brady's hand, it was a fumble. Maybe every QB should just pump it, and tuck it?
  9. Hardboiled

    Hardboiled Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    No fan of the Tuck Rule, but I don't see how it doesn't apply in that play.

    And there is no time limit. I remember Joe Gibbs lamenting that a QB could take 10 minutes before losing the ball and the rule would apply. Brady didn't bring the ball back to his body or "tuck" it so shouldn't the rule apply?
  10. sieglo

    sieglo Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,241
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Pats will NEVER get the benefit of the tuck rule again. Sorry.
  11. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Makes no difference. It doesn't matter. He never tucked it back in. If it went forward it IS by rule an incompletion. Just as Anderson's was for Cleveland last week. The difference here is I think it went backwards (but its close) and that is what makes it a fumble, not anything the defender did. Once you pump, if it hits the ground forward its an incompletion. No matter what causes it to hit the ground. That IS the tuck rule.

    J D Sal
  12. Hardboiled

    Hardboiled Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Wow, do you think before you type? Are you drinking and typing? Are you old enough to drink?

    No, every QB should pump it and NOT tuck it. Do you get it now? The whole point is that when a QB DOESN'T tuck the ball. It's pretty basic. Maybe that's why you have trouble understanding it. Someone hitting the ball has nothing to do with it.

    Your lack of knowledge continues to come through on every post. But it appears that posting is an end in itself for you.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2007
  13. He Ban Me

    He Ban Me Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    The pump was long gone and over (IIRC). Brady started to run, not sure why the tuck rule would come into play here.
  14. He Ban Me

    He Ban Me Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Not sure why what I said is considered errant.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_rule

    This play in question resembles nothing that the rule describes.
  15. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    You aren't understanding the rule. If you pump and the ball hits the ground forward, its incomplete. Period. Really simple and the NFL wants it that way. Time passage, what caused it, NOTHING makes a difference. The only thing that stops it is tucking it away under your arm like a running back would. THAT IS THE RULE. Like it or not.

    J D Sal
  16. Hardboiled

    Hardboiled Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    It's clear that you don't understand, because you don't understand the rule. And you don't seem to care about getting a better understanding. When people try to inform you, your response is to repeat the same misinformation from before. Myself and other posters have clearly stated things that should have stopped you from writing "the pump was long gone and over..."

    You've been told why the Tuck Rule applys. If you can't figure it out from the clear posts already, then look it up.
  17. PatsFaninAZ

    PatsFaninAZ Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,097
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    Yes. That's clear. You are not sure. The reason though is that you don't know the rule. Or, you do, and you're pretending you don't.

    It can be 20 seconds. He can be running. He can doing needlepoint. The reason it's called the "tuck" rule is that it's not a fumble UNTIL he's tucked. He didn't tuck.

    But it doesn't matter. The way I saw the play it was a tuck rule play -- no tuck -- but then a lateral, so it's all irrelevant. TD. I think it might have actually been called that way on the field.
  18. Crazyeechrispats1

    Crazyeechrispats1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I was thinking that It could of been a incomplete pass on a side note I was watching the game with some friends one being a BOYS fan.
    I hate to say this they are all clueless on football and are very annoying let's go COWBOYS at the top of their lungs!:eek:
    Thank god the Pats shut them all up.
  19. He Ban Me

    He Ban Me Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    REALLY Sal, that's the ONLY THING that stops it, because from THIS VERBAGE, it appears as though that is incorrect:

    Only if the quarterback reloads -- and raises the ball again to start a new throwing motion -- can he fumble, as long as the ball is knocked loose before his arm begins to move forward again.

    I believe the above is how that play happened.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2007
  20. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    First of all, its wikipedia. Who knows who wrote it. Could be you. What he says though is true. But he says "reloads".......sure. AFTER HE TUCKS!!!! THERE HAS TO BE A TUCK FIRST!!!! BRADY NEVER TUCKED!!! ITS CALLED THE TUCK RULE FOR A REASON!!!!

    I don't know who you are, to be honest I never noticed your posts before. But I'm starting to agree with the posters above who are mentioning you're an idiot.

    J D Sal
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2007
  21. He Ban Me

    He Ban Me Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    The quote was from the Washington Post:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/14/AR2005101401828.html


    IMO, his arm was coming back up, if it was coming back up, by definition, he tucked. I have heard of no one questioning this play except folks here. maybe Markbreit can clarify this particular play. Does he still do that weekly on his web site?
  22. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    There has to be a tuck. I mean, this isn't something that is exclusive to the Patriots. We're debating a rule and you're acting as if its a partisan thing. This should be a completely neutral discussion. The Patriots won regardless. I said, IN THE STANDS LAST WEEK, that the officials got the call right when they gave Cleveland's Anderson the incompletion on a similar play.

    I don't see what you're not comprehending. If the arm goes forward and it hits the ground at any time afterwards....its incomplete. Unless the ball was tucked away. If the quarterback is running with it in his open hand, if he is lifting....NONE OF IT MATTERS. Its actually a very simple rule, non-partisan and it concerns me you can't grasp it.

    Maybe you should read your article closer and see what Joe Gibbs says in it:

    "The tuck rule is the tuck rule," said Redskins Coach Joe Gibbs, who discussed the call with the NFL's officiating department. "It says you can pull [the ball] down and do anything you want for the next 10 minutes. It makes no sense to me. It's the way it's worded. I think everybody probably sees that and says it's a bad rule."

    Think he knows anything about football and the rule?

    Here is what Mike Pereira, Director of Officials, says (once again in the very article you cited):

    "The rule is very specific," Pereira said. "We have to make our decision based on the rule. Intent doesn't factor into the rule. Does the ball come out after [the quarterback's] arm is going forward and before he tucks the ball back into his body? If so, then it's an incomplete pass."

    Did you ignore that on purpose? He says right there if he doesn't tuck, its incomplete. Brady never came close to tucking, he was holding it out in the open the entire time.

    You can argue its a dumb rule, whatever. But it is what it is.

    J D Sal
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2007
  23. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,535
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    If Brady doesn't overthrow Moss on the preceding play that fumble wouldn't have even been a possibility.

    I don't know that might have been a classic example of the tuck rule but I'm not completely sure. Brady pumps (bringing his arm all the way forward) then as he just starts bringing his arm back up the ball was knocked out...

    There's a very good version if this play in slow-mo (about 1:18 in) during the fallowing highlight reel

    http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80345330
  24. He Ban Me

    He Ban Me Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    This wording is from the same article,


    Only if the quarterback reloads -- and raises the ball again to start a new throwing motion -- can he fumble, as long as the ball is knocked loose before his arm begins to move forward again.

    If the QB raises his arm again, so if he raises it again, means that his arm hit a low point (or tuck point). I would like to see the play again, to take a closer look at the arm and the Fball. Because again, I think that the arm starts to "reload", but again, need to see it again.
  25. JDSal45

    JDSal45 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    First of all, the ball was still down at his side when it was knocked out. Watch the feakin' video.

    And you have proven yourself ignorant. If you can't see how clear this rule is, something is wrong.

    J D Sal
  26. He Ban Me

    He Ban Me Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2007
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Yeah, uh, okay Sal, I will. SCREW YOU TOO, ok.
    Did you notice the title of the article included the verbage "hard to grasp"?? I don't think it is as clear as you think it is, and it's pretty ******* obvious that everybody in the NFL agrees.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2007
  27. PatsFaninAZ

    PatsFaninAZ Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,097
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    sebman -- nice find.

    That was an incomplete pass.

    Stupid rule, IMHO. But that was, as the OP said, a classic tuck rule incompletion. Not even close. The only argument is whether he brought the ball back to his shirt, but he didn't. I guess you could question whether the arm moved forward on the initial pump, but it did. Clearly it did.

    I think the interpretation for a tuck is more generous now than what it was during the snow bowl game -- crook of elbow, under forearm, or brought to the body. Also, it can be a "tuck" if the free hand comes back into contact with the ball to secure it back in the throwing hand. None of that happened here. Easy and obvious call from that replay.

    Bad on the Pats for not challenging.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2007
  28. tuckeverlasting

    tuckeverlasting Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,983
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0


    exactly how much weight does that carry ?
  29. Number Cruncher

    Number Cruncher PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0



    JD, give it up. My cat would understand this rule before this doofus.
  30. Oswlek

    Oswlek Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    4,171
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    Guys, that is a fumble. Brady completes the pump fake and even resets his arm to get ready to throw it again.

    BTW, there most certainly is a time limit on the tuck. A QB cannot pump fake and then hold the ball out in front of him and run around without concern. If the QB stops his motion, then the pump is over.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page