Couldnt have hoped for a better ending this MNF game

[ctpatsfan77]

I thought Peyton did that in the SB a few years back. :singing:

Heh, but let's restate that:

Russell Wilson is the first NFL QB to win a game for his team by throwing a last-second pick.

[Then again, take out the "last-second" part and maybe Tom Brady did that against the Chargers. :singing:]

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Nah. There's illegal pushing and shoving on every Hail Mary I've ever seen. They can pretty much do anything short of wrestle a guy to the ground. The refs are supposed to be focusing only on a possible possession of the ball.

As the 2007 Baltimore game attests, even that's OK.

 

[PatsSweFan]

How was Rodgers scrambling play without a doubt a first down on GB's last scoring drive???
The guys upstairs not on a lock-out and makes those calls, are they also pissed off at something or what

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I think that's 100% correct. We don't have conclusive video evidence in the case of the FG, but the video here clearly shows that one guy has two hands on the ball and the other guy is trying to strip it from him, thus not "simultaneous possession."

Again, not sure that is all that conclusive in real time and that initial call (simultaneous possession) is not reviewable. It was 3 on 1 with no other Seattle receiver in range or time remaining and the smart situational play there was to knock the ball to the ground where no one could possess it. Had the smart play been made the refs have no chance to subjectively interpret the call.

 

[BSR]

And a couple of others, not to mention trying and at times succeeding in a number of Conference Championship games.

Really, people act like the regulars didn't do this at times almost persistently. Isn't that what led to the previous hue and cry for full time refs? Which is part of what the league is trying to set themselves up to achieve over the next several year. Ed Hoculi used to be a god, then a couple of years ago he began to lose his mind. Nothing anyone could do about it. Media made him the butt of jokes. Now he's the guy they're all pining for, the one who is supposedly spearheading the courageous effort to keep the regulars up to snuff... These are the same guys who decided Derrelle Revis was so talented he couldn't possibly be holding on almost every PD while EHIII was so short when he appeared to make a great play in coverage he must have been committing a foul, even if it was a non existent one.

Actually, I would say its a matter of frequency. Those really bad games happen every once in a while to the regular refs. We just saw multiple games in a weekend with these guys. The other guys are just flat out more experience, better officials and the differences is effecting games. There is not denying that.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Again, not sure that is all that conclusive in real time and that initial call (simultaneous possession) is not reviewable. It was 3 on 1 with no other Seattle receiver in range or time remaining and the smart situational play there was to knock the ball to the ground where no one could possess it. Had the smart play been made the refs have no chance to subjectively interpret the call.

(A) DBs are trained to go for the INT. [Thank you Marlon McCrae!]
(B) Even when you go for knocking it down, crazy things sometimes happen.
(C) With these refs, I'm not so sure that they wouldn't have found a way to give Seattle a TD somehow.

 

[jnug]

I don't expect the NFL owners to simply roll over either. I do think they miscalculated and will recalibrate themselves. But I tend to think the only practical change will be that they move from an effort to break the union to an effort to negotiate through this mess. That still does not sound like this is resolved quickly to me.

Also nothing in this would or should be a surprise any longer. If we are thinking that the regular refs have been gaining ground in truth what advantage they have will peak at some point and then ebb. Surely the NFL is planning what to do next if in fact this goes on for an extended period. At some point the regular refs may be wayyyy on the outside looking in if they are not careful.

I do think the NFL owners have erred more in their initial gambits than the reg-refs as I do think they went into this intending to break the union and established a very hard line to that end. Not convinced that they needed to break the union but hey, I have seen enough abuses via unionizing pro sports to see their point.

The example that everybody uses is the initial MLB CBA negotiations where Marvin Miller ran circles around the MLB negotiators creating a monster in the form of the MLB CBA terms and conditions that once created have never been adequately or even marginally redressed. From that day to this pro sports league negotiators have lived in fear of making the same sort of blunder. The NFL has effectively avoided it to this point. The NBA has not. However that initial MLB negotiation set the stage for what we have today unfortunately.

While it might sound like it, I don't blame Marvin Miller. I blame the MLB for poorly representing itself in those negotiations.

 

[Wolfpack]

What a joke! Goodell should be fired posthaste for this debacle.

Why would the owners fire a guy who is doing exactly what they've told him to do?

People need to start placing blame where it belongs: on ownership. Goodell is just an employee following marching orders.

 

[JackBauer]

The fastest way to end this thing would have been for everyone to get behind the poor SOB's who filled the void a bunch of self-important, spoiled zebras with delusions of grandeur who shouldn't have even been allowed to unionize created.

This is reaching truly unprecedented levels of bizarre.

I would argue the fastest way this could be resolved is for the NFL to simply man up, realize they're ruining their product, and get back the original refs who, while imperfect, didn't behave like they were all dropped off the Special Ed bus outside the stadium before the game.

 

[everlong]

I hate the replacement refs and think they ruined the Pats\Ravens game with one awful call after the next. I didn't watch this game nor will I watch any other non Pats games until they fix this however if that was the bad call of the night I'd point out from Patriots recent history that Bradshaw was allowed to go into the pile in the Super Bowl and dislodge a ball that was clearly recovered by Woods. Also in 2007 on the final play of the Patriots\Ravens game Derek Mason clearly knocked Assante Samuel down so that Mark Clayton could catch a hail Mary. If that Pats didn't tackle him just short of the goal line the regular refs would have allowed the same play.

It's not the singular big call that kills me with the replacement refs. It's the way they're constantly changing the flow and momentum of the game and how inconsistent they are.

 

[Wolfpack]

That call also allowed Seattle to cover the spread. The line had moved from 3 to 4.5, indicating that there was more money on GB. Do you think there is more than a couple bookies in Vegas calling for Goodell's head today?

If the majority of the money gambled on this game was gambled on GB, then the bookies are happy with the outcome of the game.

 

[pwes]

Look the regular refs were not the Best in the world. The difference is they at least knew the rules. Maybe once in 6 years a coach may have been given an extra TO but not 2 Challenges with NO TOs in the span of 6 minutes. The refs may have called the wrong number but they at least knew what teams were on the field. The regulars know how to spot the ball, reset the clock and know what down it is. They know how to listen unlike the replacements doing the OPPOSITE of what the coach wants with given the option to accept a penalty or not. They know to throw a flag when a receiver is getting punched in the face repeatedly. They know when a receiver is LITERALLY piggbacking on a DB that it is OPI not DPI.

These aren't tick-tacky things that could go either way. These are blatant egregious errors being made.

 

[pwes]

If the majority of the money gambled on this game was gambled on GB, then the bookies are happy with the outcome of the game.

It will probably affect future bets which they might not be so happy with

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Again, not sure that is all that conclusive in real time and that initial call (simultaneous possession) is not reviewable. It was 3 on 1 with no other Seattle receiver in range or time remaining and the smart situational play there was to knock the ball to the ground where no one could possess it. Had the smart play been made the refs have no chance to subjectively interpret the call.

Your point is well made and comes down, I guess, to Coaching.

I think these and similar close calls fall along a spectrum from "'Obviously'* Wrong to 'Obviously'* Right."

To my eye, the call on the catch last night was pretty close to the "Obviously Wrong" end of the spectrum, and I didn't have a dog in the hunt since the game was out of Division, out of Conference and, what's more, out West. To my mind, that means it was pretty likely wrong though I wouldn't bet my kids' college tuition on it. You seem to disagree. Fair enough; I can't say with certainty that you're wrong.

The call on the FG kick the night before was pretty much at the middle of that spectrum IMO, meaning I could have seen the call go either way, even though I did in this case have a strong interest in the outcome. I've watched that kick a dozen times and I honestly can't tell you whether it crossed the plane of the uprights within, over or beyond the interior arc of the right upright. The Official under the upright was closest to the play and it was his judgment call to make. All the video I've seen is inconclusive and, indeed, the play itself is unreviewable since by definition the video would have to be inconclusive unless you had electronically synchronized cameras recording the precise instant that the ball crosses the plane of the two uprights and exactly where it is in relation to the right upright at that moment or unless you had a computerized technology around the goalposts like what they use to measure Balls and Strikes in baseball.

(*defined as "obviously" to nine out of ten objective observers without a stake in the outcome)

 

[jnug]

Goodell's responsibility is to the NFL and that is not the same thing as being responsible to the owners. The owners are independent businessmen that "own" franchises. The NFL is the league, the brand under which those independent businessmen function and ply their trade. While it might sound like the same thing, it is not.

In fact, as I understand it, Goodell has not even been much involved to this point. It is the NFL brand that is taking the hits here. The commissioner is uniquely positioned to save the owners from themselves in his position as commissioner of the league. It is a position that requires courage and foresight to be done right. Goodell exhibits neither. All we have seen from Goodell is arrogance as it appears that he sees arrogance as the best way to exhibit the strength, power and economic viability of the NFL.

I don't think so. He could have stepped in here long ago and helped the owners to a different position in these negotiations but did not do so. He has further embarrassed himself in the way he has handled Bountygate and it is on the strength of his Bountygate blunders and the way he has handled his involvement or lack of involvement in these negotiations with the refs that causes me to call for his head.

Sure does not look like we have any "good" major pro sports commissioners to point to any longer. Now they all look like a bunch of dolts when compared to the great commissioners of the past. None of them could have polished Pete Roselle's shoes.

 

[Wolfpack]

It will probably affect future bets which they might not be so happy with

Whuh huh??

 

[voluntarysaftey]

I've seen the Seahawks get robbed before, it was in a Superbowl with supposedly elite regular officials working the game.

As for the call, in slo motion it appears that Jennings initially had two hand possession at the top of grab while Tate had one hand on the ball and his other closed on it as they fell to the ground where both retained possession. Trouble is this wasn't reviewable by rule once the initial call was made of simultaneous possession, and in real time the guy who made the call was approaching from the front while the one who approached from behind seemed to be looking into the pile before he signaled time.

And as for the scrum pre catch, that is never called in a hail mary situation.

I get that the replacement reffing has been rough at times, and it's appeared worse because of the indecisiveness within crews in getting the call out and because of some ball placement miscues especially when ajudicating multiple offenses. There had been fewer offensive and defensive holding and PI calls until this week, and the uptick impacting defenses may be the fault of the league handlers who are coaching them up on the fly and may have emphasized to them to pay more attention to those rules where DPI and the chuck rule are concerned this week.

It was never going to be an ideal situation. But we forget that it never was ideal even with the vaunted regulars in charge. I think the coaches and players and media have done all they could to make the appearance seem worse than it is. And I don't believe it will get them what they think they want. Nor will they be happy when they eventually get back what they seem to miss.

If a regular official called that a simultaneous catch, and that is not something that would surprise me, it still would not be reviewable. What these guys lack is command of the game and a clear understanding of the tortured rules of engagement that the competition committee has adopted in this league over the last decade. But those rules have always been unevenly enforced. And obvious mistakes have always been made. There were calls for Ed Hoculi's head not long ago for totally screwing up a game he and his crew officiated. Anyone remember the famous non INT in the Colt/Steeler AFCC game that was somehow upheld on review? Or the faceguarding call against EHIII when no such penalty exists? Or the phantom Roethlisberger SB TD? Hell, for years Jeff Tripplette's crew was notorious for phantom game changing PI calls particularly in any Colt games they officiated.

The league is trying to either bring the NFLRA to heel or break it's union in part so it can do what fans and mediots have been wailing for for years, transition to full time officiating with the ability to replace guys who consistently make questionable calls and grade out poorly. Nothing worthwhile is ever easy. They're not going to roll over just because of bi-polar, storyline driven media pressure to just settle, any more than they did when it was the actual players they were looking to regain control over. The NFL world won't end because of poor officiating in one season any more than it has in the past. More people than ever are watching the sport if only to see how many OMG calls they can identify game to game. It's becoming like a sport within the sport...

Thanks -- I only saw the reply, but was wondering why it wasn't reviewable.
This is more on the NFL rules than the refs though -- if it was reviable then the right call could've had a better chance to be made.

 

[pwes]

Whuh huh??

People will stop gambling because of the refs.

 

[Wolfpack]

People will stop gambling because of the refs.

Heh heh. That's funny!

 

[everlong]

The worst part of this is all the major sports outlets ran front pages yesterday saying stop the whining. Because of course it was the Pats who got screwed. Today all the same ones are calling on stopping the madness. People say Pats fans have rabbit ears and a persecution complex. Well is it really a persecution complex when you have overwhelming evidence that there is a huge bias in the national, and even local in some cases, press?