Could Pete Carroll have turned it around in NE?

[lillestroom]

Bledsoe did a hell of a job, and was a great QB at one point in his career. However, as happens with so many quarterbacks, he had to adapt to weaknesses on his offense when he was young and learned bad habits as a result. Once they are learned on the NFL level, they are very difficult to unlearn, and opponents are able to exploit the tendencies.

Just ask David "shell shock" Carr.

I read somewhere that David Carr has an IQ of around 160.

Makes sense if he's a no.2 QB. Assisting calling plays, playing for the pratice squad. Running opposition play books and understanding how they work

But f**k me, I wouldnt want him under center against any college D, let alone an NFL one.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Bledsoe did a hell of a job, and was a great QB at one point in his career. However, as happens with so many quarterbacks, he had to adapt to weaknesses on his offense when he was young and learned bad habits as a result. Once they are learned on the NFL level, they are very difficult to unlearn, and opponents are able to exploit the tendencies.

Just ask David "shell shock" Carr.

Drew Bledsoe was never a great QB. He was a very good QB in the middle of his career with some great games sprinkled throughout.

 

[Deus Irae]

Drew Bledsoe was never a great QB. He was a very good QB in the middle of his career with some great games sprinkled throughout.

You're welcome to your opinion.

 

[Ring 6]

Drew Bledsoe was never a great QB. He was a very good QB in the middle of his career with some great games sprinkled throughout.

Depends on your definition of 'great'.
My assessment of Bledsoe includes:
-He absolutely elevated his team above its overall talent level many times. I no longer remember the exact stat, but its something like this:
As of around 1999-2000 a total of 8 teams in NFL history had made the playoffs with bottom 5 running games, and 4 of them were Bledsoe-led Patriots teams. The Bledsoe teams were the only of the 8 the win a division, win a playoff game, or get to a SB. Its ludicrous to state that the 94.96.97.98 Pats were good enough to make the playoffs without Bledsoe, and hard to infer that many if any other QBs could have handled having to carry the offense as much as he was asked to and been as successful as it hasn't happened with any other QB.
-The playoff run to the SB in 1996 was done with Bledsoe as a passenger on the Parcells ship, led by the D. Bledsoes opportunity at 'greatness' came in that SB and he did not have a good day.
-Bledsoe is overrated because of the stats he amassed due to the system (ie throw more than anyone else) but underrated in that the system made it harder for him to be efficient. i.e. Total stats overrated him, per pass stats, and ratings underrate him
-I find it foolish that many ignore his total lack of mobility in assessing him as a QB.His lack of mobility negatively affected his play, just as his arm positively affected it. To discount the mobility as a negative would be the same as saying his stats should be discounted because of his arm.
-If you tell me you will pick a game situation and down and distance randomly and I pick the QB to execute it, Bledsoe will be high on the list. If you tell me it will be a pressure situation against a good team, he will be much lower on the list than a lot of QBs with lesser stats.
-If you give me a medicore team who is going to need to throw the ball every down to win, I'll take Bledsoe as my QB and accept that I can be competitive but not excellent. If you tell me I have a Championship caliber team that lacks a QB, I'm not choosing Bledsoe as that QB.
-If tom Brady never showed up, Patriots fans would have a different view of Bledsoe. I know I would. I would feel much more highly about him and value the level of success he brought the team, and not arrogantly feel that Championships are all that matters, and Bledsoe is not a Championship QB. However, Brady did happen, and I suppose I'll never go backward in that.

Given my predelictions, I would rank the following QBs during the era from 1990-now loosely his contemporaries) ahead of Bledsoe:
Brady
Kelly
Marino
Manning
Elway
Warner
McNab
Aikman
Favre
Brees
Young

<from memory so i'm sure i missed a few>
and I would put a few youngsters on the path to be better but havent played long enough

Rivers
Roethlisberger

That is way too many contemporaries that I rate better for me to use great next to Bledsoe's name.

 

[lillestroom]

Depends on your definition of 'great'.
My assessment of Bledsoe includes:
-He absolutely elevated his team above its overall talent level many times. I no longer remember the exact stat, but its something like this:
As of around 1999-2000 a total of 8 teams in NFL history had made the playoffs with bottom 5 running games, and 4 of them were Bledsoe-led Patriots teams. The Bledsoe teams were the only of the 8 the win a division, win a playoff game, or get to a SB. Its ludicrous to state that the 94.96.97.98 Pats were good enough to make the playoffs without Bledsoe, and hard to infer that many if any other QBs could have handled having to carry the offense as much as he was asked to and been as successful as it hasn't happened with any other QB.
-The playoff run to the SB in 1996 was done with Bledsoe as a passenger on the Parcells ship, led by the D. Bledsoes opportunity at 'greatness' came in that SB and he did not have a good day.
-Bledsoe is overrated because of the stats he amassed due to the system (ie throw more than anyone else) but underrated in that the system made it harder for him to be efficient. i.e. Total stats overrated him, per pass stats, and ratings underrate him
-I find it foolish that many ignore his total lack of mobility in assessing him as a QB.His lack of mobility negatively affected his play, just as his arm positively affected it. To discount the mobility as a negative would be the same as saying his stats should be discounted because of his arm.
-If you tell me you will pick a game situation and down and distance randomly and I pick the QB to execute it, Bledsoe will be high on the list. If you tell me it will be a pressure situation against a good team, he will be much lower on the list than a lot of QBs with lesser stats.
-If you give me a medicore team who is going to need to throw the ball every down to win, I'll take Bledsoe as my QB and accept that I can be competitive but not excellent. If you tell me I have a Championship caliber team that lacks a QB, I'm not choosing Bledsoe as that QB.
-If tom Brady never showed up, Patriots fans would have a different view of Bledsoe. I know I would. I would feel much more highly about him and value the level of success he brought the team, and not arrogantly feel that Championships are all that matters, and Bledsoe is not a Championship QB. However, Brady did happen, and I suppose I'll never go backward in that.

Given my predelictions, I would rank the following QBs during the era from 1990-now loosely his contemporaries) ahead of Bledsoe:
Brady
Kelly
Marino
Manning
Elway
Warner
McNab
Aikman
Favre
Brees
Young

<from memory so i'm sure i missed a few>
and I would put a few youngsters on the path to be better but havent played long enough

Rivers
Roethlisberger

That is way too many contemporaries that I rate better for me to use great next to Bledsoe's name.

I agree. He was a very good QB, and NOT a great one. But when Brady went down, Bledsoe took the team the length of the field in THAT game. I remember him throwing a bullet pass in very heavy coverage over the middle and the Pats getting another first down. Brady couldnt have thrown that pass. One thing about Drew. No-one threw the ball harder than he did. Not even Sexy Rex.

And I miss those lectures Bill gave him on the sidelines.

 

[italian pat patriot]

i don't know but i'm curious to see what he will be able to do with Seattle

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I agree. He was a very good QB, and NOT a great one. But when Brady went down, Bledsoe took the team the length of the field in THAT game.

Not so.

Brady had the ball somewhere inside the opponent's 50. That said, Drew coming in cold off the bench continued the drive and ended it on a nice EZ fade toss, very similar to the one Brady would throw 2 weeks later. Earned his SB ring right there.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I agree. He was a very good QB, and NOT a great one. But when Brady went down, Bledsoe took the team the length of the field in THAT game. I remember him throwing a bullet pass in very heavy coverage over the middle and the Pats getting another first down. Brady couldnt have thrown that pass. One thing about Drew. No-one threw the ball harder than he did. Not even Sexy Rex.

And I miss those lectures Bill gave him on the sidelines.

When Brady went down it was in the process of completing a 28 yard pass on 3rd and 3 that put them on the Steeler 40. Bledsoe finished that drive for NE's only offensive scoring drive of the game until Vinatieri's 44 yarder with just over 3 minutes remaining. There were no length of the field drives completed by either of them... The game was won by Troy Brown and to a lesser extent courtesy of Kordell Stewart throwing for 255 yards and 0 TD with 3 INT and the Patriots D holding the Steelers RB to 19 yards (although a couple of those led to 2 TD's) and recovering 1 of 2 additional fumbles... Brady exited that game with more yards and a far better completion percentage than Drew amassed the rest of the way. Brady could always make all the throws, contrary to popular opinion at the time he wasn't some noodle armed dink and dunk coaching invention, but what he did best was make good decisions quickly even under pressure. Drew nearly threw that game away twice, but **** Rehbein must have been putting in a good word for us with the football gods that day because we simply weren't to be denied that trip to NO. The media tried to ignite a postgame QB controversey, but based on their individual performances in that game alone there was never going to be one here again...which is why BB felt comfortable trading Drew to a division rival.

Not sure why the Pete Carroll thread has come to this but had he been empowered to draft and start Tom Brady, Pete Carroll very well could have turned it around in NE. And had he not been empowered to BB's tenure might very well not have lasted long enough to turn it around in NE.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

1) What is this "walk up the back stairs" thing? Never heard of that.

2) I did hear that Pete was insisting on complete control if he ever came back to the NFL, so it could very well be. The real question, though, is whether the players respond to him better than they have in his first two tries.

Drew and likely other veteran players routinely went up the back stairs to Bobby Grier's (or Bob Kraft's) office to lobby to have Carroll's authority to make decisions or enforce discipline undercut. No HC can succeed in that toxic kind of atmosphere/culture. Just ask Bill, because that is why he had to let Kosar go in Cleveland, Bernie was undercutting his authority on the field, in the locker room and with management.

 

[Ring 6]

Drew and likely other veteran players routinely went up the back stairs to Bobby Grier's (or Bob Kraft's) office to lobby to have Carroll's authority to make decisions or enforce discipline undercut. No HC can succeed in that toxic kind of atmosphere/culture. Just ask Bill, because that is why he had to let Kosar go in Cleveland, Bernie was undercutting his authority on the field, in the locker room and with management.

But isn't it the coaches fault to allow that to happen? If the HC isn't in control, you end up with a failed coach and a bunch of excuses, which is what happens with most "players coaches'. If there is no fear in disrespecting the coaches authority then the coach did not garner the respect necessary and only has himself to blame.
I would say this issue is exactly the evidence of why Carroll won't make it in the NFL.

 

[RDS11]

But isn't it the coaches fault to allow that to happen? If the HC isn't in control, you end up with a failed coach and a bunch of excuses, which is what happens with most "players coaches'. If there is no fear in disrespecting the coaches authority then the coach did not garner the respect necessary and only has himself to blame.
I would say this issue is exactly the evidence of why Carroll won't make it in the NFL.

I don't have any link to support this, but I remember one time Carroll was about to suspend Terry Glenn just to have Grier overruled him...from that point on, players know they can do about anything with that coaches staff...

 

[reflexblue]

From what i remember DB was on his way to being a great QB until it was discovered that if you put pressure on him up the middle he would make poor decessions. It was all down hill after that.

As for Pete C. it seemed he was in over his head, and i don't think another year would have helped.

 

[Ring 6]

From what i remember DB was on his way to being a great QB until it was discovered that if you put pressure on him up the middle he would make poor decessions. It was all down hill after that.

As for Pete C. it seemed he was in over his head, and i don't think another year would have helped.

To me what happened was defenses ignored the run and the short pass (quick developing) area of the field because the offense was designed to only care about the intermediate and deep routes, and the coaching staff (Zampese and ulitimately his boss Carroll) were too stubborn or ignorant to adjust.
It was as if the offense was tricked into being allowed success early in the year so that it could be defended easily late in the year because it wasn't smart enough to know the same things wouldn't keep working when teams defended it differently. (I know that isn't what happened because it was different teams, but the result was the same)

 

[reflexblue]

To me what happened was defenses ignored the run and the short pass (quick developing) area of the field because the offense was designed to only care about the intermediate and deep routes, and the coaching staff (Zampese and ulitimately his boss Carroll) were too stubborn or ignorant to adjust.
It was as if the offense was tricked into being allowed success early in the year so that it could be defended easily late in the year because it wasn't smart enough to know the same things wouldn't keep working when teams defended it differently. (I know that isn't what happened because it was different teams, but the result was the same)

I remember the game that imo started DB's decline. It was the play off game against cleveland, BB was the HC, it was the first time i heard the infamous phrase "throwing off his back foot", Cleveland pressured up the middle. I don't think DB was a fast enough decision maker. For pretty much the rest of his career he seemed to need a lot of time in the pocket, and was best at throwing intermediate and long passes. He would have been great on the old raider teams of the 70's and 80's.

 

[Ring 6]

I remember the game that imo started DB's decline. It was the play off game against cleveland, BB was the HC, it was the first time i heard the infamous phrase "throwing off his back foot", Cleveland pressured up the middle. I don't think DB was a fast enough decision maker. For pretty much the rest of his career he seemed to need a lot of time in the pocket, and was best at throwing intermediate and long passes. He would have been great on the old raider teams of the 70's and 80's.

That was 1994 and he had a lot of success after that.
To me it was the 1998 season when what i described above happened.
IT seemed that once defenses knew how to defend him and take advantae of his slow decision making, he became confused in the pocket.
One of his characteristics as a QB was that he would always pass up the short pass to wait on the slower developing route. That was a positive for a long time but once it was exposed it destroyed his effectiveness. You ended up with a QB who wouldnt take the underneath throw until he was certain the deeper route was covered, defended in a manner that gave him the underneath throw early and was in his face by the time he got back to it.

 

[TrueBeliever]

Hmm...

Carroll: NCAA off base in sacking USC - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Yeah, he did turn it around: from SB to .500.

Seriously. Pete Carroll was driving this team into the ground if anything. I don't know if Bruschi's just trying to be nice here or what. Not only were they a SB team, but a young SB team that was about to enter it's prime at most of our strong positions. Yeah we caught some tough breaks with Edwards and Katzenmoyer but that doesn't excuse the downfall the team went through.

 

[IllegalContact]

I would say probably not.

Bobby Grier was just as much of a problem as Carroll was, though. Maybe more.

just go with Sam Madison instead of Chris Canty, Duce Staley instead of Sedrick Shaw, Hines Ward instead of Tony Simmons

it would have only taken a couple of moves to keep this team going. losing Edwards killed them in 1999

 

[lillestroom]

I would say probably not.

Bobby Grier was just as much of a problem as Carroll was, though. Maybe more.

just go with Sam Madison instead of Chris Canty, Duce Staley instead of Sedrick Shaw, Hines Ward instead of Tony Simmons

it would have only taken a couple of moves to keep this team going. losing Edwards killed them in 1999

I dont think it killed NE. Carroll was already going shotgun\west coast by then. He was a 1000 yard back and a fantastic player, but could he have repeated the feat? We'll never know.

 

[captain stone]

I would say probably not.

Bobby Grier was just as much of a problem as Carroll was, though. Maybe more.

just go with Sam Madison instead of Chris Canty, Duce Staley instead of Sedrick Shaw, Hines Ward instead of Tony Simmons

it would have only taken a couple of moves to keep this team going. losing Edwards killed them in 1999

Or Jason the Traitor Taylor instead of Brandon Mitchell;
Vonnie Holliday instead of the already-damaged-goods Robert Edwards;
Flozell Adams instead of Tebucky Jones;
or Ahman Green instead of Rod Rutledge.

Losing Edwards didn't kill them in '99;
The entire draft of '98 (& '97) killed them in '99.