Could Pete Carroll have turned it around in NE?

[woolster22]

Anyone else remeber the miami game near the end of the season when Bledsoe had the pin sticking out of his finger? Carrol goes to send the punt team on and bledsoe pretty much gives him the finger late in the fourth on the 40 or so, gets the first and goes on to win the game. May be the same game as the time-out incident. I was 10 at the time and knew he was all done after that garbage. Pretty positive it was the 98 season. Me and the brothers (both younger) threw the game on in the room at disney, started cheering at the insubordination, then the ol man stumbled in and brought us out to watch the rest. Pretty sure it went into ot, but not positive. Just know Bledsoe lead the team to score a go ahead/tying td on the drive n the pats ended up winning. bledsoe could do no wrong in my eyes afterwards and even I knew Petey ahd to go. fond memories of that game lol...

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

I liked Carroll when he was the Pats head coach. I thought he was moving the team in the right direction. Of course, he still had Greer shopping for the groceries, so he was handicapped by that. Obviously Kraft made the right call when he tossed Carroll for BB, that discussion should not be on the table.

Carroll might be one of those guys that is best left in college, I'm not sure his rah-rah ways will go over well in the NFL. Of course he is older now, and I think that his style will actually do well in the laid back northwest.

 

[BelizePats]

Having watched that train wreck, I highly doubt that Carroll would have turned it around!
Not with Greir running the Pats drafts. The one thing i do know is that Bobby Greir was the worst talent evaluator of college players in the history of this franchise.
I hear so much pissing and moaning on this board about BB's lack of success. Just take a look at Greir's last couple of drafts.

It was like being a Jets fan on draft day watching the crap he picked!

 

[Rob0729]

I liked Carroll when he was the Pats head coach. I thought he was moving the team in the right direction. Of course, he still had Greer shopping for the groceries, so he was handicapped by that. Obviously Kraft made the right call when he tossed Carroll for BB, that discussion should not be on the table.

Carroll might be one of those guys that is best left in college, I'm not sure his rah-rah ways will go over well in the NFL. Of course he is older now, and I think that his style will actually do well in the laid back northwest.

You really think he was moving the team in the right direction? With his play not to lose rather than playing to win style?

Hopefully for Seahawk fans, he has changed that style, but here he coached the same way we used to make fun of the Jets when Herm Edwards was there.

 

[Ryan]

Anyone else remember just how bad the second half of the '99 season was? I haven't seen the Patriots offense play that bad in my time as a fan. I think they only reached 20 points once. It's too bad because the defense was really good that year.

I don't think Carroll would have turned it around. Like others have said, he appeared to have lost the team. He took the SB caliber team Parcells put together and steadily declined over 3 years. There was really nothing that would make you think he would have helped them improve in 2000 and beyond.

 

[aluminum seats]

Not sure the board is right on this one.

At least not when it comes to Carroll in general--I agree it was too late for him to shift the tide in New England.

He's got a good football mind, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. The problem, everyone seems to agree, is that "rah rah" doesn't work in the NFL.

Not sure if that's true. There are emotional guys (eg, Bill Cowher) who have succeeded, won Super Bowls. The bigger problem with Carroll with the Pats was his authority was undercut--by Bobby Grier, which was allowed by Kraft. The same Grier--or "BG" has the players called him when they ran up the back stairs to talk to him instead of the Coach--who was drafting bad players that would have killed any team, any coach.

Look, thank God that happened--he wasn't winning 3 Super Bowls like Belichick, obviously. But he's older, still has football saavy, and will likely not be undercut again. I give him a fighting chance in Seattle.

 

[Rob0729]

Not sure the board is right on this one.

At least not when it comes to Carroll in general--I agree it was too late for him to shift the tide in New England.

He's got a good football mind, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. The problem, everyone seems to agree, is that "rah rah" doesn't work in the NFL.

Not sure if that's true. There are emotional guys (eg, Bill Cowher) who have succeeded, won Super Bowls. The bigger problem with Carroll with the Pats was his authority was undercut--by Bobby Grier, which was allowed by Kraft. The same Grier--or "BG" has the players called him when they ran up the back stairs to talk to him instead of the Coach--who was drafting bad players that would have killed any team, any coach.

Look, thank God that happened--he wasn't winning 3 Super Bowls like Belichick, obviously. But he's older, still has football saavy, and will likely not be undercut again. I give him a fighting chance in Seattle.

Cowher was a tough coach who was closer to Belichick than Carroll in terms of coaching style. My problem with Carroll more than his "Jacked and Pumped" persona is that he coached scared. He played not to lose, not to win. He is the antithesis of Belichick in that respect.

Also, Carroll's game management was poor. He was always slow to get plays in and Bledsoe was constantly burning time outs (we saw how frustrating it was this year with O'Brien, but we had three years of that under Carroll). Carroll had poor clock management skills on top of that.

Yes, Carroll was given a bum hand by getting Grier giving him crap players, but Carroll made the situation worse by his poor coaching style.

BTW, at least two players who were crap under Carroll and drafted by Grier turned into pretty good players when Belichick took over - Kevin Faulk and to a lesser extent Tebucky. Jones Jones still was a liability in some aspects, but Belichick at least turned him into a productive player. Faulk was on his way out the door when Belichick arrived because he didn't run well and fumbled the ball all the time.

 

[Dagg]

I dont think he could have succeeded in NE but I think he may in Seattle.

Guys wont buy into Ra ra from some no name coach, that problem is solved with the work he did at usc and is now a known commodity with a history of winning (even though it was in college) players might buy in. He also is close to alot of the talent out there having scouted and recruited many of them even if they didnt end up at usc.

Thats not a powerhouse divison and a cellar dweller can get to the top rather quickly.

 

[aluminum seats]

[QUOTE=Rob0729;1691775]Cowher was a tough coach who was closer to Belichick than Carroll in terms of coaching style. My problem with Carroll more than his "Jacked and Pumped" persona is that he coached scared. He played not to lose, not to win. He is the antithesis of Belichick in that respect.

Also, Carroll's game management was poor. He was always slow to get plays in and Bledsoe was constantly burning time outs (we saw how frustrating it was this year with O'Brien, but we had three years of that under Carroll). Carroll had poor clock management skills on top of that.

Yes, Carroll was given a bum hand by getting Grier giving him crap players, but Carroll made the situation worse by his poor coaching style.

BTW, at least two players who were crap under Carroll and drafted by Grier turned into pretty good players when Belichick took over - Kevin Faulk and to a lesser extent Tebucky. Jones Jones still was a liability in some aspects, but Belichick at least turned him into a productive player. Faulk was on his way out the door when Belichick arrived because he didn't run well and fumbled the ball all the time.[/QUOTE


Fair enough--but I do think his "pumped and jacked" stuff is what most people think of when they think he'll fail, more so than poor clock management. Some of the stuff you mention should be improved simply by being a head coach longer, albeit in college.

 

[MassPats38]

No. Steady decline post-Parcells, a QB that needed a tyrant to succeed and a dysfunctional organization. Tedy is great, but I suspect that statement is more a reflection of himself and his development as a player rather than Carroll and his coaching. The team was bleeding out slowly year by year and would not have suddenly righted itself without that major change.

I agree, Carroll is Herm Edwards or Marv Lewis, a "people person" and cheerleader who will succeed in the NFL only if the organization was in place before he reports as coach and needs that different personality to take that last step (like Gruden and the Bucs). I also agree his lifespan is about 3 years, after which he will be reminded why he has not remained in the NFL. He seems to be running from USC, not to the NFL (as one ESPN writer concluded), so this experiment will be short-lived. By then, the investigation should be over and he can go back to college ball.

 

[TrueBeliever]

Tedy is great, but I suspect that statement is more a reflection of himself and his development as a player rather than Carroll and his coaching.

Thank you for answering my question!

 

[pats60]

On pete last year here when he was 8-8 Adam missed 2 easy 4th quarter fg.
One was against bills a 31 yarder and the other last play of game against KC.
He could have been 10-6.

 

[MassPats38]

On pete last year here when he was 8-8 Adam missed 2 easy 4th quarter fg.
One was against bills a 31 yarder and the other last play of game against KC.
He could have been 10-6.

You could say that. At the same time there were 2 convincing wins against the Cards and Ravens, and a 15-point loss to the Eagles and 10-point loss to the Fish. Pretty much everything else was decided by 3 points or less. As such, the team could just as well have been 2-14. That was a season of close games, with 299 PF, 284 PA.

 

[TrueBeliever]

What particularly boggles me about Tedy's remark is the cycle the team went through in those years. They would start off hot and win a lot of games, then sink and lose a lot of games, then swing back up at the end of the year just in time to make the playoffs. By '99, however, the upswing wasn't enough to make the playoffs. What makes Tedy think this would have gotten any better in 2000?

 

[PatsFanDan]

I have zero confidence Carroll could have turned anything around here in NE.

I don't expect him to be a complete failure in Seattle since the team has already fallen upon hard times. But maybe they could hire Bobby Grier to come in and buy the groceries. That would all but ensure being in the running for the #1 pick on draft day the following season.

 

[brdmaverick]

This situation will forever define Pete Carroll's coaching career for me...........

In the memorable Bledsoe broken-finger fourth quarter comeback against the Dolphins (on Monday Night Football), the Pats faced a crucial fourth and 7 with only one time out left. The TV panned to Pete Carroll who was telling his team to take a time out. Keep in mind this is BEFORE coaches could call a time out. Despite seeing Carroll's plea to call time out, the TEAM COMPLETELY DISREGARDED HIM AND PROCEEDED WITH THE PLAY ANYWAY. The commentators pointed out that Terry Glenn was looking straight at Pete Carroll, so there was absolutely NO possiblity that they just didn't see him.

The team COMPLETELY disregarded their head coach. That is almost unheard of.

For a team to do that (and on a national stage) says all you need to know about what they thought of their coach.

 

[zeke mowatt]

The loss of Robert Edwards and any semblance of a running game did in the Pats and Carrol in that era. The o-line in those years was for ***** too. Which was the beginning of the end for Bledsoe.

The core offensive and defensive group was good enough to compete for a title.

Grier didn't help matters any.

 

[Ring 6]

The loss of Robert Edwards and any semblance of a running game did in the Pats and Carrol in that era. The o-line in those years was for ***** too. Which was the beginning of the end for Bledsoe.

The core offensive and defensive group was good enough to compete for a title.

Grier didn't help matters any.

Frankly, the difference between the 1996 team going to the SB, and the 1997 getting bounced by Pitt, 1998 losing in round 1 and 1999 going 8-8 was that the Patriots were outsmarted a lot in the Carroll era.
Offensively, they were just dumb. Remember the Larry Kennan debacle of never converting 3rd or 4th and short? Remember 1999 when the Pats were 6-2 with possibly the best offense in the NFL in the first half, then defenses adjusted, and they kept doing the exact same thing all the way to 8-8 with a pathetic offense in the 2d half? It was a total lack of intelligence.
Defensively, there were some good players when Carroll arrived, but barely a single player developed, the depth was atrocious, and they failed consistently in the clutch.
Carroll took over a team that was good enough to contend for years, and it deterioated to awful.
Yes, Grier didn't help, but Carroll was picking some groceries too. Lets not forget Petey saying he was staking his career on making Tebucky Jones a shutdown corner. Argh.

 

[pheenix11]

1) As I've said before, when you live in this state BSPN Radio is your only sports option unless you like listening to news about the Packers 24/7.

2) If anyone else had said it, I wouldn't have given it much credence... but Tedy?! Why would Tedy say that? He of all people should have seen the difference in going from Parcells to Carroll to Belichick.

I'd rather listen to knitting than Mike & Mike, Golic is ehh but Greenie is a such a pansy ass little biatch. Here's an idea, get an iPhone, get the Flycast app and listen to WEEI. That's what I do and I live in Florida.

We could even start a collection for you because no one should have to suffer through the hell that is Mike & Mike. That is just cruel and unusual punishment.

Oh yeah, anyone who thinks Pete Carroll will ever be successful in the NFL is smoking some serious crack. He will be back in college by 2012.

 

[Disco Volante]

Wow, what a snake Carroll is.

Source: Two-year postseason ban for USC football - ESPN Los Angeles