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Convince me why I should vote for McCain/Palin

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Mogamedogz, Sep 26, 2008.

  1. Mogamedogz

    Mogamedogz Rookie

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    #80 Jersey

    Convince me why John McCain and Sarah Palin are the best choice in this election WITHOUT mentioning Barack Obama.

    Ready? GO!!

    Note: This is not shtick.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I can't do it, I just can't do it (not mention messiah) I can't get the picture out of my head where dozens of democrats faint when the Holy Prince Obama blew his nose and announced he planned on being the President of the USA, I keep seeing Chris Matthews Drooling while his leg is jumping up and down as he hears the sounds of the Great Prince Barack's voice delivering one of his "Golden Speeches"

    All that would make me vote for OJ Simpson.

    :bricks:
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's easy: You think women should not have rights over their own bodies, that gays should not be treated equally, that black people should just shut up and quit their complaining; that illegal immigrants are all lazy leeches and criminals; that Muslims are all terrorists; that the air and earth are clean enough; that the wealthy really want to help the poor, but they need more money to do so; that aerial hunting of wolves is a sport; that the separation of church and state is unimportant; that regulations that protect workers and health are just government bureaucracy; that it's better to take away your liberties than risk giving liberties to someone with abhorrent views; that the older you are the better qualified you are to be President; that people who led wild sex lives make better leaders; that a man who lost 4 planes in peacetime and that got captured after 20 hours of combat service is an amazing hero; that a man who never was paid by anyone but the taxpayer is best qualified to be president. Does that persuade you?
  4. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Are you working with James Dean too?
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008
  5. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    I'll try and list some things that I think make McCain an attractive candidate to a wide group of people, ignoring Patters' ridiculous rant:

    A willingness to reach across the aisle proven over his legislative career, not just given lip service.
    Willing to call out those in his own party that are not getting the job done/not serving the people's interests. Also not afraid to piss off other Republicans to accomplish things he believes are right. In other words more bound to his own views than the party line.
    Willing to make tough decisions that may be unpopular if he feels they best serve our country (I suppose this can be a plus and a minus).
    A Moderate in his party rather than a conservative or liberal idealogue.
    Wants to stimulate business with tax cuts, wants to cut taxes across the board.
    Wants to end entitlement spending.
    Able to recognize the threat posed by unfriendly foreign governments (Iran, Russia, etc).
    He has a long record that shows these things to be true, in other words we know what we're getting, both good and bad.

    These are a bunch of things where I think he appeals broadly to Americans. There are a number of other things I myself find attractive (such as say the justices he'd appoint to the Supreme Court) that I have left out because they appeal to me more than the average voter.
  6. Mogamedogz

    Mogamedogz Rookie

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    #80 Jersey

    Not just yet...

    Anyone else care to take a stab at this? Anything Patters might have missed? lol
  7. MrSparkle

    MrSparkle Rookie

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    This is not shtick.


    Right...
  8. Mogamedogz

    Mogamedogz Rookie

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    #80 Jersey

    It's not. I was just laughing at Patters sarcasm, while trying to solicite some more serious replies.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008
  9. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 Rookie

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    Why are you so worried about the gays?
    Are you trying to tell us something?

    As far as I know McCain/Palin are not against you and your friends.

    They may not support gay marriage, but you still could probably have
    a civil union with your partner.
  10. Mogamedogz

    Mogamedogz Rookie

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    #80 Jersey

    Thanks for your response Stoker. All of the below questions are a genuine in nature.

    Can you provide any specific examples of McCain during the last ('04) Bush tenure (which is when I think he lost his balls), that resulted in a positive bi-partisan agreement on an important issue?

    Has he called Bush out on any one of his countless blunders and mishaps post 2004?

    This would be a HUGE minus for me, considering some of the judgment he has shown so far in this election, and in regards to the war.

    I do believe this to be true, and it's one of the things that I do like about McCain.

    What specifically has he done that would lead you to believe this? McCain was a strong supporter of the administration's position to Invade Iraq. He called them "a clear and present danger", which I am sure that most (level headed people) would now agree, was not the case.
  11. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    #80 Jersey

    If you make over $250,000/year you will get a bigger tax cut than....the other guy.

    Although both's plans were created before this financial meltdown, so things could and probably will change.

    If a tax cut is your #1 thing, vote for John McCain.
  12. Mogamedogz

    Mogamedogz Rookie

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    #80 Jersey

    :nono:

    While I do OK for myself... I come from poverty. I would estimate that 90% of my family falls into the low(er) income category. The only way to truly understand the life of common folks is to have lived it at some point. I just don’t think McCain could ever relate to certain issues that the middle/lower class (which looks like it could be growing in the very near future unfortunately) are faced with.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008
  13. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    I'll try and answer these, although I think I see generally where you're going, and I agree with it if my assumption is correct. More recently McCain has been cozying up to Bush and conservatives to help him in his primary campaign. Even though I think that is correct to some extent, we can see some specific examples where it is not the case.

    Tough to find actual accomplishment since 2004 as not a whole lot has gotten passed on a bipartisan basis. I would point out though that he has made attempts at bipartisan legislation since '04, most notably the McCain-Kennedy immigration reform bill. There's a great example of him trying to find the middle and get something done, and also an example of when he was at complete odds with the conservative wing of his own party (who ended up killing the bill).

    Here is one example, from May '08
    "McCain also took several swipes at President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, who have long described Iraq in rosy terms -- "last throes," "dead-enders" -- that have repeatedly proven to be false. "I understand, and you understand, the damage false optimism does to public patience and support," McCain said. "I learned long ago to be skeptical of official reports that are long on wishful thinking and short on substance.""
    John McCain: Bush's echo | Salon News

    This was in 2004 during Bush's re-election campaign:

    CNN.com - McCain: Bush not straight enough on Iraq - Sep 19, 2004

    "Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona said Bush was not being "as straight as maybe we'd like to see" with the American people about Iraq.

    McCain, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said on "Fox News Sunday" that it was "a serious mistake" not to have had enough troops in place "after the initial successes" and that the mistake had led to "very, very significant" difficulties.

    "I think every day that goes by that we don't remove these sanctuaries in Falluja and other places in the Sunni Triangle, the more expensive it's going to be at the time we take this out," McCain said.

    He said he "would never have allowed the sanctuaries to start with.""

    As I was looking for more I came across this page, not sure how many of these are real, but some were pretty hilarious, and pointed at other Republicans:

    McCain Quotes - Topix

    "F**k you! I know more about this than anyone else in the room." --to Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX), during a testy exchange about immigration legislation

    "No, I'm calling you a f*cking jerk." --to fellow Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley, when Grassley asked "Are you calling me stupid?"

    "Only an a**hole would put together a budget like this ... I wouldn't call you an a**hole unless you really were an a**hole." --to Budget Committee Chairman and fellow Repulican Sen. Pete Domenici, during a Senate budget hearing

    For me it is a positive, since I agree with his Iraq policy and foreign policy, but I do recognize that for some the idea of someone sticking to their guns despite flagging public support is a bad thing. Depends on if you agree with their position or not!

    Yeah, and its for real with him. I won't mention the other guy because you asked us not to, but I will tell you there have been 2 Presidential candidates that ran on their ability to work in a bipartisan manner and be beyond partisanship without having proven it before taking office, and they were Richard Nixon and George W Bush. That's why I would think actually having shown it is better than just saying that's what you're all about.

    I'm sorry, I wrote my response to that question according to my own worldview, which is that Iran is a definite threat and Russian hostility can't go unchecked. What I was trying to say is that he has been consistently critical of Iran and views them as a major threat to security, and has been unfailingly critical of Putin going back years, and recent Russian aggression. My thought was that both these things are attractive to the American public, but you're right, they could be positives or negatives depending on how you view threats from abroad. As for Iraq all I would say is that the intelligence presented to him at the time supported the idea that Iraq WAS a threat, so I would place the blame more on the intelligence (true whether you think it was just bad or if you think the Bush admin falsified it) than his judgement. If things had really been the way they read in the intel reports then it would have been the right call. I hope that doesn't lead us into a big Iraq argument though, I tried to stay away from any kind of controversial statement there to keep us on topic!!!
  14. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    When you say choice, then you are by default, including the other options into the discussion. You are saying, why is Coke, better than drinking Pepsi, or RC Cola if you want to add a 3rd party into the mix. So how you've presented the question, you can't help but compare him to the alternative.

    I can't bring myself to vote for McLame, although I like to look at Palin, so I couldn't tell you why you should.
  15. Mogamedogz

    Mogamedogz Rookie

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    #80 Jersey


    Thanks for the well thought out post. I appreciate your insight and respect your opinion, even if I do disagree with parts of it. :eat3:
  16. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    Cheers to that! Tough to do it without talking about the opponent and trying not to interject my own feelings on particular issues into my reasoning (like you saw with the Iran/Russia part).

    Someone should do the opposite, convince me to vote for Obama without mentioning McCain, and I'll add in without mentioning Bush. Any takers? I think there can still be a good case to be made without using those two.
  17. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    I can make an argument for either candidate ... typical independant but I'll give it a go.

    I'll speak of McCain as Palin is just a VP and they're just there for the ride.

    - McCain has shown he hates wastefull spending

    - He has shown the ability to work on both sides of the aisle.

    - He has shown leadership many times.

    - Will be respected as the leader of the country around the world.
    - Tends to back measures good for the country as opposed to being a yes man.

    - Has nothing to prove at this point in his life. he doesn't need to accumulate wealth or prestige. He has a great desire to truly be a great President and I find that very attractive.

    Just a few ... i don't want to get to technical.
  18. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 Rookie

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    She calls him "Grand pa" POW and be good at cheerleading.




    We need competent people to govern this country .

    Where are people with PHD's and Masters and doctorates IN ECONOMICS , SCIENCES POLITICS ,ETC,ETC,ETC



    Where are they these people?????
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008
  19. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I have a letter in my hand from 200 of them, opposing a measure proposed Monday that is no longer at issue!
  20. PatsFanInVa

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    I'm going to be the MAVERICK and propose my own pros for both candidates, with no cons.

    I'll make the arguments for McCain and Obama both which would make them appealing. First, to answer the question, McCain:

    - He has been in Washington for 20-odd years, and has at times bucked his own party (which is always wrong so that is good...)

    - His dramatic sense is very good. I don't think it will work for the last week's script, but often it does. This can be useful even at the high levels. I will say I prefer depth of understanding, which is 90% of the game, but in its absence I have to agree that good dramatic timing isn't a bad trait.

    - His world is fairly simple. This also means he can be decisive, in a given moment, and contradict himself decisively in a few hours or a few days. Obama seems to attempt to deliberate on his feet. This reads badly to the mass audience. If you like the appearance of decisiveness, this is good.

    - He seems to understand that anthropogenic global warming is a reality and must be combatted.

    - By comparison with the usual fare offered up by the Rebublicans, he appears to understand that all forms of spending, including defense spending, can be examined. Now, he'll freeze everything except defense and homeland security, soe he doesn't seem to have any intent of considering those type of programs as equivalent to others. But it's a start.

    Things I like about Obama:

    - He understands that this country has adopted a tax policy incredibly skewed against the majority of the people, and his tax policy specifically addresses that. I think the wealthy and corporate America get a better deal in the US than elsewhere, and get a better deal than the poor and the middle class. I do not think this is right or wise (and by the way if you think these things lead to jobs, watch the employment figures this year). So I like Obama's policy.

    - He understands that diplomacy is preferable to war when it can work. Our current regime thought that diplomacy was a dirty word or a punchline, and McCain strikes me as being similarly dismissive of diplomatic efforts. But I actually think both are dangerously misguided about use of U.S. military power, if we take them at their word, about which more in a moment.

    - For the course of the country, Obama's strategy appears to be superior. He understands we are an imbalanced society, economically. McCain does not understand this. He understands that Corporate America needs to be regulated and overseen -- not just in the middle of a crisis. McCain thinks in terms of bad individuals who must be excoriated and publicly embarassed (you'll know their names.) Obama thinks in terms of systems that must be reformed. I agree with him. I also agree that government regulation has been another dirty word in America for decades, but I believe that Markets are only a mechanism like any other; they have nobody's interest in mind. They tend toward concentration of wealth and, in their current incarnation, pursuit of wealth to the exclusion of reason (in the sense of foresight.) There is a role for regulation. Obama gets this. McCain does not.

    - Obama does not see the world as a collection of good guys (us and our allies) and bad guys (whoever disagrees with us at the moment.) He sees the world more realistically, which in the long run is better for the country.

    - Obama has a sense of proportion (e.g., he understands that "pork" is a very small percent of the budget, but one that should not be tolerated.) He does not rely on gimmicks.

    - Obama sees in terms of years, not weeks; perhaps because he is less of a dramatist by nature, he embodies a steady and thoughtful approach, rather than lurching from stunt to stunt.

    - Obama has a thoughtful, even-tempered nature. While I understand the uses of drama, I prefer foresight.

    - Obama understands the lie that we are something called "post-industrial." You need to make stuff to have a real-life economy. McCain just says there's no problem there. Obama is starting to understand that the future markets for goods must be the future markets for jobs (e.g., future industries centered around next-generation transportation.)

    - On the personal side: Obama understands that some rules of behavior have a reason for being there. This is enormously useful in relationships both at home and abroad. Call it civility or maturity. Everybody would love to tear up "silly rules" that prevent them from getting what they want. Progressively, over the years, we understand those "silly rules" aren't always silly to other people. If there's a lunch line at school we come to understand we can't cut in line because we're special and different. Obama seems to have learned this basic truth. McCain seems immature about this point.

    Now, here are the things both candidates had better be posturing on, or hiding from the people:

    - Uses of the American military. Both seem to have adopted the idea that American forces will be lurching from war to war inevitably and endlessly. Neither articulate a world-view in which war is the exception rather than the rule. Neither seems to understand that National Sovereignty is a huge consideration for other nations, Pakistan for example. McCain did better saying he would work with the regime there to accomplish our goals. But he's also an old-school paranoid interventionist who from day 1 was easily fooled with rumors and false reports vis a vis Iraq, and he thinks bombing other countries is funny. When the song is on Dr. Demento, it's funny. When your president's singing it, it's scary. The lesson: If you're running for president, act like a president, not a frat-boy. But more to the point, I am not convinced he understands geopolitics represent other peoples with their own interests. I think they are the "bad guys" to him, not a complex world with complex aspirations.

    Example - last night he slipped in something about the Afghan "freedom fighters" talking about when the Soviets were occupying Afghanistan. In the next step he talked about Al Qaeda. He did not seem to make the connection that Al Qaeda was born in the "Freedom Fighters" that "freed" Afghanistan. The most powerful such group? The Taliban.

    He seems to think tactically, without regard to unintended consequences. This is one of the things that will restrict one's actions (foresight), and if your actions are restricted, you can't shoot from the hip and be a "maverick."

    - Understanding of the demographic shifts that are looming, and their interrelationship with current and future debt. Military adventurism is enormously expensive. Our taxation policy is appropriate to a country that does not believe in its own future. Tax cuts are popular but at the moment are dead wrong. Since Obama's are less flagrant, I like him better on this subject, but neither seem concerned with eliminating deficit spending, emphasis on deficit. McCain wants to do away with taxes especially on the wealthy, and freeze everything but the gun-carrying bits of our obligations. He will still cost us more in terms of deficits. Obama wants more modest tax cuts, and wants to benefit different people, with which I agree. But he has not focused on paying down debt, and is easily portrayed as a "spender." Debt is not free; you don't just pay back later what you borrow today. You pay interest, and that's a huge drain. Now is the time to offer lots of candy to all the voters; I certainly hope whoever's elected respects that basic math.

    - Neither seems to understand that in the civic realm, your religion is a good explanation for the views you hold, but has no part in what others should go along with, in terms of policy. Obama's ahead in my opinion on the separation of church and state, but he tries very hard to understand every position, and in that pursuit he's appeared to have compromised on that point. I suspect that because I'm treasonous and godless (Madisonian/Jeffersonian) on that point, I am to the left of the general electorate; but I would still prefer in a Utopian way that we had gotten over this.

    - Last night, both displayed thinly veiled ignorance. For example, both were very concerned about the Republican Guard in Iran, when in fact the Republican Guard was Iraq's now-vanquished elite corps. Iran's is the Revolutionary Guards. This reminded me of McCain's belief that Al Qaeda is propped up by Iran. I don't think either of them understands a part of the world or a conflict until it takes center stage. Example 2 - the situation of Georgia and Russian resurgence is not treated holistically. The right answer is that you have to condemn Russia for flouting Georgia's national sovereignty, and address their real concerns on behalf of the peoples of Abkhazia and South Ossetia (bringing both Georgia and Russia to the table.) What we should want is this: Some sort of autonomy for these 2 regions, which do not and have never seen themselves as Georgian. Zero tolerance for Russian troops, which is at present a continuing occupation of Georgian territory. What we hear predictably is black-and-white: An unprovoked Russian imperialist action. The world is more complex than either grasps, or at least than either wants to portray.

    Okay I'm done. Sorry to get all "maverick" about the rules. What can I say, I'm special and different. Good thing I'm not the President ;)

    PFnV
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008

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