Contract question (yes, more Peppers)

[eom]

somewhere in this morass I think I read something about carolina being able to sign pep to a regualr longer term deal, and if they traded him that same day the new team would pick up the signing bonus (assuming there was one).

is this true?

otherwise, carolina's on the hook for that, right?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

somewhere in this morass I think I read something about carolina being able to sign pep to a regualr longer term deal, and if they traded him that same day the new team would pick up the signing bonus (assuming there was one).

is this true?

otherwise, carolina's on the hook for that, right?

All bold/brackets mine:

"A Club is not required to have Room [under the salary cap] to execute a Player Contract with a player to whom the Club has exclusive negotiating rights if the player is assigned to another Club via a trade on the same business day as the execution of the contract, and the assignee club has or makes Room for such Player Contract."

 

[eom]

I read that as carolina could sign him to a deal that puts them over the cap provided they trade him away that same day.

but it doesn't really mention specifically who gets stuck w/the bonus.
if it was just a matter of the cash, then I'd imagine new england could even that up by kicking cash in on the deal, but would the bonus cap hit (not salary) be carolina's to keep?

 

[Blizzzard]

Does anbody think its possible that the Panthers would make a deal with the pats under the agreement they pick up the bonus money hit every year? this way the pts only get hit with the salary? Meaning they are the ones to sign him to the contract then tade him. This is how it works in madden world! lol

 

[SladeRider]

I've read alot about contracts and what not from reading aload of forums and posts on here aswell.

My understanding if any Peppers trade happens it will happen with Peppers and the Patroits agreeing a deal, Peppers signing the franchise tender, the Panthers signing Peppers to the contract he agreed upon with the Patriots and the Panthers then trading Peppers to the Patriots.

I understand that under the current CBA, all this happens on the sameday, except for the part where Peppers and the Patriots agree to a contract, that can be agreed upon before hand. But when Peppers signs a franchise tender, everything would have to happen on the sameday.

If I hear news that Peppers has signed his franchise tender, I'd expect him to be traded within 24 hours.

 

[Miguel]

USATODAY.com

USATODAY.com

USATODAY.com

I have never heard of a franchise player who was traded agreeing to a long-term deal with his old team first.

The above links are just examples of how a trade of a franchise player has happened in the past.

Franchise player signs tender. Franchise is traded to new team. Franchise player signs long-term deal with new team.

 

[gomezcat]

USATODAY.com

USATODAY.com

USATODAY.com

I have never heard of a franchise player who was traded agreeing to a long-term deal with his old team first.

The above links are just examples of how a trade of a franchise player has happened in the past.

Franchise player signs tender. Franchise is traded to new team. Franchise player signs long-term deal with new team.

...so, in other words, they need to be able to take the salary cap hit of the $16 Million (or whatever it is) and then negotiate? Thanks, that's cleared it up for me as well.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I have never heard of a franchise player who was traded agreeing to a long-term deal with his old team first.

I would think that's because if the contract is at all reasonable, what would stop the team from "reneging" on the trade once the player's agreed to the more favorable terms. For example, let's say, for the sake of argument, Peppers agreed to play two years in New England at $2M/yr. If he signed a new deal with Carolina reducing his pay to that level, what would stop the Panthers from just keeping him at that salary? [The only thing I can think of would be a bizarre "reverse poison pill" that forces the team to trade him—e.g., if his team plays at least four games in North Carolina in 2009, his salary jumps to $20M/yr or somesuch.]

 

[NE39]

I have never heard of a franchise player who was traded agreeing to a long-term deal with his old team first.

The above links are just examples of how a trade of a franchise player has happened in the past.

Franchise player signs tender. Franchise is traded to new team. Franchise player signs long-term deal with new team.

Tebucky Jones signed is long-term deal with the Patriots with the condition he is traded to the Saints. A lot of them do that, you just don't hear about it because it is paperwork. So, it goes like this:

1) Player signs long-term deal with team, with signing bonus being conditional to being traded to new team
2) Player is traded to new team
3) New team acquires player with contract, pays bonus which kicked in as condition of trade
4) Old team has no salary cap hit, new team takes on contract like it was signed with them. However, they don't need enough cap room to take on entire franchise tender, they need enough cap room to absorb the new contract signed by the player.

That is how they manage to trade a franchise player without the new team needing enough cap room to absorb the full tender.

The problem is the old team would still be punished, because they would lose the franchise tag for the length of the new deal the traded player signed. That is where the "same day" thing kicks in. If you sign a franchise player to a long-term deal and trade him on the same day, you don't lose the tag for the length of the contract. You get it back the following year.

I'm pretty certain that is how franchise player trades are facilitated. If someone emails Andrew Brandt of the National Football Post or AdamJT13 they could probably clear it up.

 

[eom]

Tebucky Jones signed is long-term deal with the Patriots with the condition he is traded to the Saints. A lot of them do that, you just don't hear about it because it is paperwork. So, it goes like this:

1) Player signs long-term deal with team, with signing bonus being conditional to being traded to new team
2) Player is traded to new team
3) New team acquires player with contract, pays bonus which kicked in as condition of trade
4) Old team has no salary cap hit, new team takes on contract like it was signed with them. However, they don't need enough cap room to take on entire franchise tender, they need enough cap room to absorb the new contract signed by the player.

That is how they manage to trade a franchise player without the new team needing enough cap room to absorb the full tender.

The problem is the old team would still be punished, because they would lose the franchise tag for the length of the new deal the traded player signed. That is where the "same day" thing kicks in. If you sign a franchise player to a long-term deal and trade him on the same day, you don't lose the tag for the length of the contract. You get it back the following year.

I'm pretty certain that is how franchise player trades are facilitated. If someone emails Andrew Brandt of the National Football Post or AdamJT13 they could probably clear it up.

thank yooooouuuu!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Miguel]

Tebucky Jones signed is long-term deal with the Patriots with the condition he is traded to the Saints.

Link, please.

A lot of them do that, you just don't hear about it because it is paperwork.

Then how did you hear about them.

The problem is the old team would still be punished, because they would lose the franchise tag for the length of the new deal the traded player signed. That is where the "same day" thing kicks in. If you sign a franchise player to a long-term deal and trade him on the same day, you don't lose the tag for the length of the contract. You get it back the following year.

ProFootballTalk.com -- The Best Pro Football Scoop on the Internet

"The NFL's position regarding this provision, then, is that a long-term deal signed prior to July 15 now restores the franchise tag for the following season."

 

[Miguel]

If someone emails Andrew Brandt of the National Football Post or AdamJT13 they could probably clear it up.

Will Flozel be franchised?? *Merged*... Jamie Dukes vid added - Page 9 - Dallas Cowboys Forums - CowboysZone.com

Adam posted this:
"To trade a franchised player, he has to sign the franchise tender. Then he can be traded and sign a renegotiated contract with his new team."

which sounds exactly like my scenario.

 

[eom]

we've got you on the ropes, now, miguel.

peppers will be ours......

I was going to click your link until I saw the part about the jamie dukes vid.

 

[Miguel]

we've got you on the ropes, now, miguel.

How??? I just posted two links

one that proves that the problem that NE39 claims to exist does not in fact actually exist.
the second in which Adam's description of the steps that take place in trading a franchise player matches mine.

 

[NE39]

I don't really view this as a competition, just trying to have a discussion. Also, I don't have a link to the Tebucky Jones thing, just a recollection of a prior discussion. I'm not sure if this has changed at all, given the pending un-capped year.

Please note as well, I am not trying to invent some scenario to get Peppers on the Pats. I can't see how they could afford him given their current players due for free agency soon, but I don't see the tender as an obstacle.

I believe, based on the following, from the CBA:

*Side Letter 11/1/95: Sec. 1

(3) If a Player Contract provides for an increase in Salary upon the assignment of such contract to another NFL Team, such increase shall be included in the player’s Salary upon such assignment and be attributable to the Team paying the bonus.

I take that to mean that Peppers could sign his new long-term deal with the Panthers, with his bonus being paid based on his assignment to a new team. When he is dealt to the new team, the bonus kicks in and is paid by the new team, thus would not accelerate on Carolina's cap but hit on the new team's cap.

Also, the deal had to happen the same day due to this provision:

*Side Letter 1/18/94: Sec. 1

* If a club executes a multiyear agreement with a player designated as a Franchise Player and trades the player the same day to another NFL club, the assignor club will be deemed to have used its franchise designation for only the League Year in which the contract was executed.

This could have changed, I'm not sure. I am talking about how these deals were pulled off in the past if the team acquiring the player did not have the cap room to take on the full tender, but could if they worked out a long-term deal.

Again, perhaps AdamJT13 could clarify this, or perhaps someone could email Andrew Brandt of the National Football Post with the question.

 

[Miguel]

This could have changed, I'm not sure.

It did change. I provided the link. If you read the link and still think that it did not change, there is really not much that I can do to further this discussion.

 

[NE39]

It did change. I provided the link. If you read the link and still think that it did not change, there is really not much that I can do to further this discussion.

Very well. However, it doesn't really address the point. I was merely showing that to clarify the "same day" aspect people were talking about. It has applied in the past, which is what I was referencing when talking about prior trades of franchise players.

However, the question remains: Do the Patriots need enough cap room for Peppers full tender ($16.7M or so) to execute a trade? I submit they do not, just enough cap room to take on the first year of a new contract he signs (which would probably still be too much of a burden to make a deal realistic, assuming they wanted to do it).

They can work out a new deal with Peppers that Carolina can sign him to prior to the trade. Carolina can avoid the bonus acceleration because the bonus could be conditional upon assignment to a new team, thus it would apply to the Pats cap (if a deal were to happen).

I believe this is so, based on past recollection. I could be wrong.

 

[Miguel]

Very well. However, it doesn't really address the point. I was merely showing that to clarify the "same day" aspect people were talking about.

Here's the same day aspect

"A Club is not required to have Room to execute a Player Contract with a player to whom the Club has exclusive negotiating rights if the player is assigned to another Club via a trade on the same business day as the
execution of the contract, and the assignee Club has or makes Room for such Player Contract.

1.)The Panthers do not have exclusive negotiating rights with Peppers.
2.) Peppers is already counting against the Panthers' cap.

 

[NE39]

1.)The Panthers do not have exclusive negotiating rights with Peppers.
2.) Peppers is already counting against the Panthers' cap.

So, if he were to:

1) sign the tender first, thereby bringing him under contract
2) reach an extension per the terms of the club trading for him, with terms specifying the bonus is payable upon being assigned to the team trading for him
3) Traded to said team

In that scenario, the team acquiring him would only need enough cap room to take on the contract under the extension terms and not the tender, correct?

Or, would that violate some other provision?

 

[Miguel]

From the CBA:
"Any Unrestricted Free Agent shall be permitted to negotiate and contract for an individual Right of First Refusal with any Club with respect to the services of such player so long as the player is not a Franchise Player or Transition Player at the time of such negotiation and contract."

Without that individual right of first refusal how does a franchise player prevent his old team from trading him to another team (not that he wants to go to) once he signs his franchise tender.

Also from the CBA:
"The total amount of any signing bonus shall be prorated over the term of the Player Contract (on a straight-line basis, unless subject to acceleration or some other treatment as provided in this Agreement), with a maximum proration of six years, in determining Team and Player Salary, except that:
(7) If a Player Contract provides for an increase in Salary upon the assignment of such contract to another NFL Team, such increase shall be included in the player’s Salary upon such assignment and be attributable to
the Team paying the bonus.

My take on the above: 7 is an exception to the proration rule making the increase an increase in Paragraph 5 salary. Otherwise, why list it as an exception??

If one looks at the 18 things listed in the CBA as amounts treated as signing bonus, one does not see an increase in salary upon assigninment of the player's contract to another team.