Constructive defensive thread

[RayClay]

Seems to be the thing lately, so some random thoughts about the defense.

It's not awful. With Brady and Co. marching down the field a lot in the no huddle the defense is 13th out of 32 in scoring. That's mediocre. The number of yards don't matter at all, especially with our superior scoring, unless you are playing your own version where you get points for the most yards without scoring.

[The Red Sox used to play a version of this; most men on base without scoring runs, but only in my own frustrated mind.]

Spikes is screwy, Nincovich stinks, Cunningham is a bust. Guess they're looking a bit better with time. That's really the rule, not the exception. Defenses are about learning and chemistry. We looked at a ton of low round and FA DLs and got one keeper. That's patience. Maybe Brace is a bust, but nobody's giving away 300++ pound linemen who can play. Maybe it's injuries, but if not you can more easily cut him than find a replacement.

I think our front seven needs depth, which is better than needing talent, which i think we have. Our secondary just can't put together a group of healthy well functioning players at the same time. I wonder if Chung's got a chronic shoulder issue. If not, we've got the talent we've got, which isn't bad if Talib is a positive.

By not bad, I don't mean their function right now, they aren't good. I think the size of our linebackers means we'd rather pull them more, or help them in passing situations, but our safeties are different each week. Looking glass half full (Chung and Gregory being healthy) we have a good three safety rotation with some talent at CB and Moore on the PS if needed.

Before you jump all over me, that's the best we can expect, we already paid for a troubled vet, I doubt there are more moves. Barring health, we'll have to patch. we've won a SB with a patched backfield.

I don't see how coaching has much to do with it, how do you coach guys who aren't healthy at the same time, or playing out of position? I do think they might simplify the "game plan" defensive approach to give these guys some continuity since we'll be lucky to have our prospective starting lineup playing more than a few games together.

 

[coolguy]

Seems to be the thing lately, so some random thoughts about the defense.

It's not awful. With Brady and Co. marching down the field a lot in the no huddle the defense is 13th out of 32 in scoring. That's mediocre. The number of yards don't matter at all, especially with our superior scoring, unless you are playing your own version where you get points for the most yards without scoring.

[The Red Sox used to play a version of this; most men on base without scoring runs, but only in my own frustrated mind.]

Spikes is screwy, Nincovich stinks, Cunningham is a bust. Guess they're looking a bit better with time. That's really the rule, not the exception. Defenses are about learning and chemistry. We looked at a ton of low round and FA DLs and got one keeper. That's patience. Maybe Brace is a bust, but nobody's giving away 300++ pound linemen who can play. Maybe it's injuries, but if not you can more easily cut him than find a replacement.

I think our front seven needs depth, which is better than needing talent, which i think we have. Our secondary just can't put together a group of healthy well functioning players at the same time. I wonder if Chung's got a chronic shoulder issue. If not, we've got the talent we've got, which isn't bad if Talib is a positive.

By not bad, I don't mean their function right now, they aren't good. I think the size of our linebackers means we'd rather pull them more, or help them in passing situations, but our safeties are different each week. Looking glass half full (Chung and Gregory being healthy) we have a good three safety rotation with some talent at CB and Moore on the PS if needed.

Before you jump all over me, that's the best we can expect, we already paid for a troubled vet, I doubt there are more moves. Barring health, we'll have to patch. we've won a SB with a patched backfield.

I don't see how coaching has much to do with it, how do you coach guys who aren't healthy at the same time, or playing out of position? I do think they might simplify the "game plan" defensive approach to give these guys some continuity since we'll be lucky to have our prospective starting lineup playing more than a few games together.

"I don't see how coaching has much to do with it" How do you explain every corner back not watching the ball while it's in the air?
I think bill built the defensive scheme around run stopping which was a mistake....sure, The pats can stop the best running teams in game, but that's meaningless when the other team is confident they can throw at will on them.

the 49ers are a prime: The patriots will game plan the defense to stop frank gore
The 49ers will feel confident that alex smith could throw for 350+ and a couple of touchdowns......luckily brady can do the same.

Any time when mark sanchez doesn't believes he could throw it 41 times in Gillette is a problem.

Quarterbacks simply don't fear facing a bb defense anymore...

kyle arrington and devin mccourty are not horrible corners, but something mentally is missing from their rookie seasons. Dmc is missing that confidence he showed in his rookie season.

 

[Sciz]

"I don't see how coaching has much to do with it" How do you explain every corner back not watching the ball while it's in the air?

Well for starters, many posters expect them to turn around and look at the ball every time they're thrown at, while the coaches specifically teach the players not to look for the ball in certain situations.

 

[RayClay]

"I don't see how coaching has much to do with it" How do you explain every corner back not watching the ball while it's in the air?
I think bill built the defensive scheme around run stopping which was a mistake....sure, The pats can stop the best running teams in game, but that's meaningless when the other team is confident they can throw at will on them.

the 49ers are a prime: The patriots will game plan the defense to stop frank gore
The 49ers will feel confident that alex smith could throw for 350+ and a couple of touchdowns......luckily brady can do the same.

Any time when mark sanchez doesn't believes he could throw it 41 times in Gillette is a problem.

Quarterbacks simply don't fear facing a bb defense anymore...

I don't think coaching can have much effect when you can't put the same guys on the field. Part of playing cornerback is having the athletic ability to make smooth transitions. McCourty works hard, but he is hardly the smoothest cornerback I've ever seen.

Asante is a jerk, but I noticed right away that he was very smooth and fluid and a lot of that is just innate ability.

 

[RayClay]

Quarterbacks simply don't fear facing a bb defense anymore...

So what? this defense is in transition. It's mostly new and/or young players. The core of the defense that teams feared from 2001-2004 was mostly drafted in the mid nineties. Picking up a player like Rodney Harrison isn't something that happens often, it was a huge mistake by San Diego.

This is the defense we've got now. rodney isn't coming through that door. Improvements we'll make in 2-3 years won't help us now. We need to mold whatever players are healthy into a unit good enough for the playoffs.

We went to the Super Bowl with a worse secondary, that's what life is, making the best of what you've got.

I'm concerned about these zones where 4 guys surround, but don't stop a pass. Overall, they're an average defense now. I hope they're healthy enough to improve from 13th, but realistically, it's about making enough plays to win with a great offense, which we have.

 

[coolguy]

I don't think coaching can have much effect when you can't put the same guys on the field. Part of playing cornerback is having the athletic ability to make smooth transitions. McCourty works hard, but he is hardly the smoothest cornerback I've ever seen.

Asante is a jerk, but I noticed right away that he was very smooth and fluid and a lot of that is just innate ability.

McCourty showed ALL OF THAT IN HIS ROOKIE SEASON!!!!!! The next season all his potential eroded along with his skills.

The tim tebow or 45-3 game are a fine example of a defense playing with confidence. On every down they played faster and more physical every time tebow/sanchez had the ball.

I think we are simply looking at a defense with a broken spirit

 

[smg93]

I saw Darren Sharper on NFL Network yesterday talk about his 2009 Saints defense. He said that basically the D wasn't that great and they knew it. What they concentrated on was basically trying to make a couple plays here and there for either TO's or stops because the D knew that Brees and the Offense would score 30 each game. As long as those two things happened, they believed they would win.

Had you come in late and not know that he was talking about the 09 Saints, you wouldn't be blamed if you thought he was describing the 2011 and 2012 Patriots. Let's see if Talib can make a difference but at this point, I believe us fans pretty much know that games will be high scoring more often than not and that no lead is really safe for this Patriots D at least in this earlier part of the season.

On that note, I'd like to see how this Defense performs in the later part of the season when the weather gets rough. Will opposing QB's still perform as well as they have when it drops below freezing and is snowing? Will they have to rely on the run more during this part of the season? If so, will the Rush D then take center stage which would then play into the hands of the Defense's strength? Let's see.

 

[coolguy]

So what? this defense is in transition. It's mostly new and/or young players. The core of the defense that teams feared from 2001-2004 was mostly drafted in the mid nineties. Picking up a player like Rodney Harrison isn't something that happens often, it was a huge mistake by San Diego.

This is the defense we've got now. rodney isn't coming through that door. Improvements we'll make in 2-3 years won't help us now. We need to mold whatever players are healthy into a unit good enough for the playoffs.

We went to the Super Bowl with a worse secondary, that's what life is, making the best of what you've got.

I'm concerned about these zones where 4 guys surround, but don't stop a pass. Overall, they're an average defense now. I hope they're healthy enough to improve from 13th, but realistically, it's about making enough plays to win with a great offense, which we have.

That Superbowl run was fluky.
game one they faced tim tebow who could barely throw
game two joe flacco lead his team to a score with ease, but the pats got breaks.

There is a game plan other teams have figured out to shred the defense when they need to.

I'm extremely interested to see how alex smith performs against the defense.

 

[coolguy]

I saw Darren Sharper on NFL Network yesterday talk about his 2009 Saints defense. He said that basically the D wasn't that great and they knew it. What they concentrated on was basically trying to make a couple plays here and there for either TO's or stops because the D knew that Brees and the Offense would score 30 each game. As long as those two things happened, they believed they would win.

Had you come in late and not know that he was talking about the 09 Saints, you wouldn't be blamed if you thought he was describing the 2011 and 2012 Patriots. Let's see if Talib can make a difference but at this point, I believe us fans pretty much know that games will be high scoring more often than not and that no lead is really safe for this Patriots D at least in this earlier part of the season.

On that note, I'd like to see how this Defense performs in the later part of the season when the weather gets rough. Will opposing QB's still perform as well as they have when it drops below freezing and is snowing? Will they have to rely on the run more during this part of the season? If so, will the Rush D then take center stage which would then play into the hands of the Defense's strength? Let's see.

The rushing defense is amazing, They show confidence and fire whenever the team runs the ball......it's when the qb drops back that all of that fire disappears.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

So what? this defense is in transition. It's mostly new and/or young players. The core of the defense that teams feared from 2001-2004 was mostly drafted in the mid nineties. Picking up a player like Rodney Harrison isn't something that happens often, it was a huge mistake by San Diego.

This is the defense we've got now. rodney isn't coming through that door. Improvements we'll make in 2-3 years won't help us now. We need to mold whatever players are healthy into a unit good enough for the playoffs.

We went to the Super Bowl with a worse secondary, that's what life is, making the best of what you've got.

I'm concerned about these zones where 4 guys surround, but don't stop a pass. Overall, they're an average defense now. I hope they're healthy enough to improve from 13th, but realistically, it's about making enough plays to win with a great offense, which we have.

'Realistically' the team went to the Super Bowl because 'realistically' everything fell into place for them to get there

1) Denver beat Pittsburgh whereas it would have been much more difficult to beat Big Ben had they had to play them,Ben has beaten this poor secondary more than once in the past years.

2) The Texans lost their QB and were still in the playoffs with a raw rookie TJ Yates,I am certain the Texans would have been a load had they had their most important player behind center.

 

[coolguy]

'Realistically' the team went to the Super Bowl because 'realistically' everything fell into place for them to get there

1) Denver beat Pittsburgh whereas it would have been much more difficult to beat Big Ben had they had to play them,Ben has beaten this poor secondary more than once in the past years.

2) The Texans lost their QB and were still in the playoffs with a raw rookie TJ Yates,I am certain the Texans would have been a load had they had their most important player behind center.

Not to mention brady didn't play a good game.......Joe flacco didn't figure out how bad the defense was until the 4th quarter.

 

[manxman2601]

Seems to be the thing lately, so some random thoughts about the defense.

It's not awful. With Brady and Co. marching down the field a lot in the no huddle the defense is 13th out of 32 in scoring. That's mediocre. The number of yards don't matter at all, especially with our superior scoring, unless you are playing your own version where you get points for the most yards without scoring.

[The Red Sox used to play a version of this; most men on base without scoring runs, but only in my own frustrated mind.]

Spikes is screwy, Nincovich stinks, Cunningham is a bust. Guess they're looking a bit better with time. That's really the rule, not the exception. Defenses are about learning and chemistry. We looked at a ton of low round and FA DLs and got one keeper. That's patience. Maybe Brace is a bust, but nobody's giving away 300++ pound linemen who can play. Maybe it's injuries, but if not you can more easily cut him than find a replacement.

I think our front seven needs depth, which is better than needing talent, which i think we have. Our secondary just can't put together a group of healthy well functioning players at the same time. I wonder if Chung's got a chronic shoulder issue. If not, we've got the talent we've got, which isn't bad if Talib is a positive.

By not bad, I don't mean their function right now, they aren't good. I think the size of our linebackers means we'd rather pull them more, or help them in passing situations, but our safeties are different each week. Looking glass half full (Chung and Gregory being healthy) we have a good three safety rotation with some talent at CB and Moore on the PS if needed.

Before you jump all over me, that's the best we can expect, we already paid for a troubled vet, I doubt there are more moves. Barring health, we'll have to patch. we've won a SB with a patched backfield.

I don't see how coaching has much to do with it, how do you coach guys who aren't healthy at the same time, or playing out of position? I do think they might simplify the "game plan" defensive approach to give these guys some continuity since we'll be lucky to have our prospective starting lineup playing more than a few games together.

Well my first point would be, Why are they playing out of position? If that's not coaching, nothing is. And the other point as to why coaching is a problem is that the secondary hasn't improved for at least a couple of years, if anything, it's regressed. The ultimate responsibility for that is the coaches and particularly BB. Having said that, I'm actually hopeful moving forwards. I really like McCourty at safety and think he could be a league leading safety providing the Pats commit to him at the position. I like Dennard and think he can be league average at worst, if they re-sign Talib, then we could be looking at an effective tandem and I still hope that Dowling can get an extended run of fitness because I think his upside is really good. That leaves us only in desperate need of another safety as I'm yet to be convinced that Tavon Wilson is the guy.

 

[roguepatriot]

Seems to be the thing lately, so some random thoughts about the defense.



By not bad, I don't mean their function right now, they aren't good. I think the size of our linebackers means we'd rather pull them more, or help them in passing situations, but our safeties are different each week. Looking glass half full (Chung and Gregory being healthy) we have a good three safety rotation with some talent at CB and Moore on the PS if needed.

Before you jump all over me, that's the best we can expect, we already paid for a troubled vet, I doubt there are more moves. Barring health, we'll have to patch. we've won a SB with a patched backfield.

I don't see how coaching has much to do with it, how do you coach guys who aren't healthy at the same time, or playing out of position? I do think they might simplify the "game plan" defensive approach to give these guys some continuity since we'll be lucky to have our prospective starting lineup playing more than a few games together.

This defence is (still) in rebuilding mode and I believe with the new NFL, BB will never make it the focus as far as FA spending goes.BB has got the message that offenses (QBs) now win games, so the defense will have to build from draft picks/FA rejects from other teams. Not all draft picks, due to talent/injuries work out. WIth a young group, the defensive approach tends to be more simple at the beginning of the season, which becomes much easier for opposing QBs to pick apart. Rebuilding often means less depth, so injuries hit harder. It is also only two years since the team focused more on a 4-3 alignment, which then takes the right talent to populate.

IF you look at this as a rebuilding year, the defense is not going to be good. Usually if five rookies are on the field, with 5 more 2/3rd year players, which I have seen this year, there are going to be mistakes. I have not been over-impressed by the coaching in some games, , but if you are already giving away a ton of long passing plays, blitzing may just lead to more of them.

As I see this a) this team will make the post season (again); b) a young/rebuilding defense will get better as the year goes on and into the postseason; c) if they can all get/stay healthy, with Taliq, they could improve to an average run stuffing turnover causing D, which has happened in past seasons. Otherwise, I see 2 years from now these guys will be a lot better, as this years rookie crop improve and the drafting emphasis goes back to DBs. With what we are used to the last ten years, maybe it is tough to be that patient, especially after the last Buffalo game. If I look back to the years I lived in hope supporting the 'Patsies', maybe its not too bad. Also, I do not think there is any truly dominant team in the NFL right now, so even with this defense, I believe that all it needs is for TB and the running game to go into overdrive for 3/4 games in the post season for them to still end up with a ring.

 

[Sciz]

Joe flacco didn't figure out how bad the defense was until the 4th quarter.

How far are you willing to spin things in order to avoid giving the defense any credit at all?

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Not to mention brady didn't play a good game.......Joe flacco didn't figure out how bad the defense was until the 4th quarter.

Not to mention that Schaub and Big Ben are far better and more consistent than Flacco.

Schaub may be one of the most dangerous QBs the team will face all year,at times he plays as good as anyone in the league,I am worried about that game.

 

[coolguy]

How far are you willing to spin things in order to avoid giving the defense any credit at all?

The ravens scored a touchdown and missed a chip shot field after flacco led his team down the field.

 

[coolguy]

Not to mention that Schaub and Big Ben are far better and more consistent than Flacco.

Schaub may be one of the most dangerous QBs the team will face all year,at times he plays as good as anyone in the league,I am worried about that game.

Schaub is not a better than flacco and is unproven.

Eli, rivers, and flacco are essentially the same quarterback.

 

[Sciz]

The ravens scored a touchdown and missed a chip shot field after flacco led his team down the field.

We're talking about the fourth quarter here. There were no Ravens points in the fourth quarter. The Ravens had three drives in the fourth quarter. One was an interception where Spikes undercut a route. The second was a failed fourth down conversion that was very much forced by the Pats, particularly Wilfork. The third was that missed FG. The only thing the Ravens accomplished in that entire quarter was getting into FG position. It doesn't seem to me like Flacco was playing a defense that sucked.

 

[RayClay]

Well my first point would be, Why are they playing out of position? If that's not coaching, nothing is.

Because the two starting safeties were injured.

And the other point as to why coaching is a problem is that the secondary hasn't improved for at least a couple of years, if anything, it's regressed.

They have different players. Meriweather was talented, but turned out to be an idiot. Bodden was injured. Are you saying they should have kept and coached up that mess we had the end of last year?

I really like McCourty at safety and think he could be a league leading safety providing the Pats commit to him at the position. I like Dennard and think he can be league average at worst, if they re-sign Talib, then we could be looking at an effective tandem and I still hope that Dowling can get an extended run of fitness because I think his upside is really good. That leaves us only in desperate need of another safety as I'm yet to be convinced that Tavon Wilson is the guy.

Yes, we have more talent, I agree, but you can't coach players in the whirlpool.

I will agree that they might simplify their "game plan" defenses to allow more continuity and depend on athletic ability, but in general, I don't see how you can coach players who won't do their job, or ones that are continually injured.

 

[coolguy]

We're talking about the fourth quarter here. There were no Ravens points in the fourth quarter. The Ravens had three drives in the fourth quarter. One was an interception where Spikes undercut a route. The second was a failed fourth down conversion that was very much forced by the Pats, particularly Wilfork. The third was that missed FG. The only thing the Ravens accomplished in that entire quarter was getting into FG position. It doesn't seem to me like Flacco was playing a defense that sucked.

You got me there.. That was one of the oddest games I've ever seen, one can make the case the defense maybe plays better when they know brady won't bail them out.