Consensus SB Favorites A Few Days Ago

[shmessy]

Doesn't matter. However, I seem to recall a certain head coach saying that they would be able to do so. Are you calling him a liar or a fool?

OK, now you're just being disingenuous.

Of course, Deus, they could have paid Cassel $14 million on the cap this year.

They would not have been able to make some of the very important subsequent roster moves if they kept him on.

That's Remedial Cap Economics 101. Either you don't understand that or you choose to ignore it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

OK, now you're just being disingenuous.

Of course, Deus, they could have paid Cassel $14 million on the cap this year.

They would not have been able to make some of the very important subsequent roster moves if they kept him on.

That's Remedial Cap Economics 101. Either you don't understand that or you choose to ignore it.

I've figured it out. In his quest to document the folly of giving Felger a new show on the radio he's been listening to his contrarian ramblings for the last two weeks and it's turned his brain to mush. He's basically parroting Felger's rant from today's show now... The patented why can't we just spend like drunken sailor's every season and sign everyone if we really want to win mantra. Oddly even Maz was telling Felger today that only an idiot would run a business into the ground that way...

Daniel Graham left here because he wanted to prove he was an elite receiving TE and paid accordingly. He was sick and tired of being hurt all the time being used as a blocking TE. Turns out that was what he's best at. Just ask Shanny who (among other things) overpaid for him by a couple of million a year and is now on his HC sabbatical...

The road to cap hell (and abject failure) is paved with NFL FO's who overpaid for marginal (or aging) talent.

 

[Double G]

And we're all basically gonna have reservations about this deal until we either win another Superbowl, or that pick turns out to be the next Richar Seymour. And if neither happens, then my own 'reservations' will have been confirmed./QUOTE]

Pretty much nails this whole thing in a nutshell.

If they go on to win the Super Bowl and the pick turns out to be a 10 year starter who is stud, great, BB is a super genius.

If they don't win the Super Bowl and the pick turns out to be a mediocre/marginal talent, BB is not a genius.

Time will tell either way.

The fact that they pushed this deal two years out tells me it's more about money than getting value for a guy who is on the back nine, the old "it's better to get rid of a player a year too soon than a year too late" line of BS. Nope, it's about money.

The only thing I question is your comment about "And we're ALL gonna have reservations abou this deal..................." as I am not finding this to be the case at all based on what I've read here and heard elsewhere from fans, the vast majority think this is ALREADY a superb, wonderful, spectacular deal.

The Stepford fans speak and we're all supposed to lock step into formation because of it.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

...

Daniel Graham left here because he wanted to prove he was an elite receiving TE and paid accordingly. He was sick and tired of being hurt all the time being used as a blocking TE. Turns out that was what he's best at. Just ask Shanny who (among other things) overpaid for him by a couple of million a year and is now on his HC sabbatical...

The road to cap hell (and abject failure) is paved with NFL FO's who overpaid for marginal (or aging) talent.

I agree with you here, Mo.

Graham was a very good tight end for this team, and has been a good tight end for the Broncos. He is not worth the money the Broncos paid him.

Because I feel this way, and because others may feel this way, does not make me a homer or a rube or a bumpkin or a tagalong.

 

[shmessy]

The fact that they pushed this deal two years out tells me it's more about money than getting value for a guy who is on the back nine, the old "it's better to get rid of a player a year too soon than a year too late" line of BS. Nope, it's about money.

Substitute "salary cap" for "money" and you'll be closer to the truth.

The Patriots have money. The Patriots spend money (Just ask any FA who comes in here and gawks at the practice facilities, the crab legs on the buffets, the top notch equipment, etc. that they never saw on their former teams - - the normally reticent Corey Dillon gave an eye opening interview to ESPN magazine back in 2004 where he practically salivated talking about it).

It's a salary cap system in the NFL. BB is an Economics major and that subject is his third great interest (behind football and lacrosse).

To paraphrase Mark Felt advising Bob Woodward, "Follow the salary cap".

 

[Deus Irae]

OK, now you're just being disingenuous.

Of course, Deus, they could have paid Cassel $14 million on the cap this year.

They would not have been able to make some of the very important subsequent roster moves if they kept him on.

That's Remedial Cap Economics 101. Either you don't understand that or you choose to ignore it.

I'm not being disingenuous at all, and you know it. You are the one who took a simple example, which showed the ability to free up cap room, and tried to make it a referendum on all subsequent moves involving that money. The Cassel money was freed up for the Cassel move. Are you now going to also try equating the $15 million Cassel needed to the much lesser amount needed for Graham?

The irony of you bashing me about "Remedial Cap Economics 101" while completely missing my point about the cap and the Patriots ability to manipulate it was worth the price of admission, though, so thank you.

 

[shmessy]

I'm not being disingenuous at all, and you know it. You are the one who took a simple example, which showed the ability to free up cap room, and tried to make it a referendum on all subsequent moves involving that money. The Cassel money was freed up for the Cassel move. Are you now going to also try equating the $15 million Cassel needed to the much lesser amount needed for Graham?

The irony of you bashing me about "Remedial Cap Economics 101" was worth the price of admission, though, so thank you.

Tell me more about how easily it is to merely conjure cap space out of thin air.

Reminiscent of the Seinfeld joke to the Chinese restaurant Maitre D' about how "Anyone can TAKE a reservation, but evidently it is a different matter to HONOR a reservation".

Sure, the Pats were able to carve $29 million of cap space for the two QB's. Just don't go around imagining they would have been able to get Burgess, Fred Taylor, Galloway, Leigh Bodden, Shawn Springs, etc.

The team with the best 53 (fifty three) man roster wins.

 

[Frezo]

This is true of EVERY SINGLE MOVE EVER MADE BY ANY SPORTS TEAM.

So, let's close down the message boards.

Can't do that. There's enough Peppers talk left for everybody.

 

[Deus Irae]

Tell me more about how easily it is to merely conjure cap space out of thin air.

Reminiscent of the Seinfeld joke to the Chinese restaurant Maitre D' about how "Anyone can TAKE a reservation, but evidently it is a different matter to HONOR a reservation".

Sure, the Pats were able to carve $29 million of cap space for the two QB's. Just don't go around imagining they would have been able to get Burgess, Fred Taylor, Galloway, Leigh Bodden, Shawn Springs, etc.

The team with the best 53 (fifty three) man roster wins.

And again you try to take a simple point and turn it into yet another moved goalpost. They needed the room and they made the room.

 

[shmessy]

And again you try to take a simple point and turn it into yet another moved goalpost. They needed the room and they made the room.

At what cost??????

Dan Snyder can make cap room for 5 or 6 cap hogs every year. I see how excited all the poor suckers down here are about Albert Haynesworth. Helluva player, no doubt. A real monster, I agree. ONE PLAYER on a 53 man roster.

What does it do for the 53 man roster????

It's a simple difference in theory on how to manage the cap. Belichick has his way and Dan Snyder has his.

Obviously, you adhere to the Snyder way.

 

[Deus Irae]

At what cost??????

Dan Snyder can make cap room for 5 or 6 cap hogs every year.

What does it do for the 53 man roster????

It's a simple difference in theory on how to manage the cap. Belichick has his way and Dan Snyder has his.

Obviously, you adhere to the Snyder way.

You're acting as if you've somehow cracked a code. The difference in cap hit for Graham ($2.8 million)

USATODAY.com

And Kyle Brady ($2.3 million)
USATODAY.com

Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2007 Patriots Salary Cap Information Page

was about half a million dollars.


Even if the Patriots had needed to add another million in cap to that pot in order to keep Graham, you're still only worrying about juggling $1.5 million to make the move. Trying to use the difficulties in follow up after freeing up $15 million to discredit a $0.5 million dollar difference is just ridiculous.

 

[shmessy]

You're acting as if you've somehow cracked a code. The difference in cap hit for Graham ($2.8 million)

USATODAY.com

And Kyle Brady ($2.3 million)
USATODAY.com

Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2007 Patriots Salary Cap Information Page

was about half a million dollars.


Even if the Patriots had needed to add another million in cap to that pot in order to keep Graham, you're still only worrying about juggling $1.5 million to make the move. Trying to use the difficulties in follow up after freeing up $15 million to discredit a $0.5 million dollar difference is just ridiculous.

Ah, you conveniently forget one important aspect.

The Patriots were NEVER going to get Graham for what the Broncos paid.

This was no secret.

Graham gave Denver a home town discount for two reasons:

1) Denver is his hometown

2) Shanny promised him the different role he moaned for.

Now, would you like to compare APPLES TO APPLES? Compare what Graham's price WOULD have been if the Patriots were to win the bidding for him. THAT would be the comparison.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ah, you conveniently forget one important aspect.

The Patriots were NEVER going to get Graham for what the Broncos paid.

This was no secret.

Graham gave Denver a home town discount for two reasons:

1) Denver is his hometown

2) Shanny promised him the different role he moaned for.

Now, would you like to compare APPLES TO APPLES? Compare what Graham's price would have been if the Patriots were to win the bidding for him. THAT would be the comparison.

Next time you might try reading my post...

Even if the Patriots had needed to add another million in cap to that pot in order to keep Graham,

That's pretty obviously not expecting any 'hometown discount'.

As for APPLES TO APPLES, I'm not the one equating a $0.5 million dollar difference to a $15 million dollar cap issue. I was the one pointing out that if the team can find a way to clear $15 million, it could find a way to clear enough space for Graham (that was far less than $15 million, in case you ignore the post or don't see the point).

 

[shmessy]

Next time you might try reading my post...



That's pretty obviously not expecting any 'hometown discount'.

As for APPLES TO APPLES, I'm not the one equating a $0.5 million dollar difference to a $15 million dollar cap issue. I was the one pointing out that if the team can find a way to clear $15 million, it could find a way to clear enough space for Graham (that was far less than $15 million, in case you ignore the post or don't see the point).

The number that Graham would have extracted from the Pats to overcome all the advantages Denver provided for him was more than enough to cover Welker's $1.7 million cap hit.

The comparison YOU originally made was the 2007 cap hits for Graham (on the Broncos) vs. Kyle Brady. NOW, who is moving goalposts?

 

[Deus Irae]

The number that Graham would have extracted from the Pats to overcome all the advantages Denver provided for him was more than enough to cover Welker's $1.7 million cap hit.

The comparison YOU originally made was the 2007 cap hits for Graham (on the Broncos) vs. Kyle Brady. NOW, who is moving goalposts?

What are you talking about? You don't know how much it would have cost to keep Graham in New England, yet you're making up a number. I pointed out that his cap number in Denver was only $500,000 more than Brady's was in New England. That's not moving any goalposts.

Sips, not gulps.

 

[Deus Irae]

Here, maybe this will help:

 

[shmessy]

What are you talking about? You don't know how much it would have cost to keep Graham in New England, yet you're making up a number. I pointed out that his cap number in Denver was only $500,000 more than Brady's was in New England. That's not moving any goalposts.

It does NOT matter what his cap number was in Denver - - is that impossible for you to grasp?

He was never going to sign in New England for anything comparable to what the signed in Denver - - this was a lifestyle/family/receptions decision by Graham. The discount he gave Denver was NOT his price for staying in New England.

So you can prattle on about his 2007 cap numbers in Denver for decades if you like - - it is an irrelevancy to the discussion.

 

[lamafist]

Are you really trying to suggest that comparing Graham's 5 year, $30 million contract with $15 million guaranteed to Kyle Brady's contract worth a total of $1.3 million is apples to apples?

If that's the way you think things work in the NFL, I see why you feel you have to resort to name-calling, accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being a kool-aid drinker.

 

[shmessy]

Patriots without Jerod Mayo and Richard Seymour riddle Baltimore's #1 ranked offense.

Patriots without Jerod Mayo and Richard Seymour riddle Atlanta's #2 ranked offense.

Patriots without Jerod Mayo and Richard Seymour hold NY Jets to 16 points.

How's that 2011 1st rounder looking now?

Anyone else want to complain about the trade of Richard Seymour to the (now) 0-4 Oakland Raiders?

Haven't heard a PEEP about this from the exceptionally voluble naysayers from this thread in a while.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

lol I'm excited as the rest of you right now but please I don't want to see this thread up until we are hoisting the Lombadi again.