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Connor Barwin Through 9 Games

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by maverick4, Nov 14, 2009.

  1. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    9 games, 9 total tackles, 1 sack.
    A bust, 2nd round pick who was taken way too high.

    SOOOO glad we didn't draft this raw combine superstar.



    For comparison/perspective, another 2nd round pick Patrick Chung only started getting major playing time the past three games after playing behind Meriweather/McGowan/Sanders, and for the season has 20 tackles, 1 int, and 2 sacks.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2009
  2. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    He is a versatile player who has not mastered one position.
  3. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Barwin also has 2 passes defended. Obviously not eye-popping stats, but he's producing when he gets on the field.

    Lets look at some other rookie stats for some other day 1 rookies who are not currently starting for their teams:

    #18 Robert Ayers, Denver: 11 total tackles, 0 sacks, 0 passes defended. But has gotten some good pressure.

    #43 Everette Brown, Carolina: 8 total tackles, 0 sacks, 1 pass defended.

    #46 Clint Sintim, NY Giants: 7 total tackles, 0 sacks, 0 pass defended.

    Not to mention (for a different position) our own Ron Brace: 1 tackle, 0 sacks, 0 passes defended in 4 games.

    So clearly all of these guys are busts.

    Come on. Get real. They're rookies, and still getting playing time, still learning their system and their positions. It's way too early to be declaring anyone a bust.

    And for those who are starting, who are getting much more playing time:

    #13 Brian Orapko, Washington: 26 total tackles, 5.5 sacks, 0 passes defended

    #15 Brian Cushing, Houston: 78 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 8 passes defended.

    #26 Clay Matthews, Green Bay: 15 tackles, 3 sacks, 4 passes defended.

    #38 Rey Maualuga, Cincinnati: 30 tackles, 1 sack, 1 pass defended.

    Obviously, those who are starting getting more playing time and are starting have more of a chance to make plays, and more of a chance to get comfortable with their system. Yet Matthews' numbers as a starter (and considered a big success for GB) aren't that much better than Barwin's as a sub.

    And, for comparison, our own Darius Butler, a player who most feel is coming along beautifully, has so far produced 12 tackles, 0 sacks, 4 passes defended and 2 interceptions. The stat line doesn't tell the whole story.

    From what I can tell, Barwin is progressing just fine in Houston. He generates pressure, can defend the pass, and should be very good in time.
  4. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    Brian Cushing stands out, a lot of people her including myself were worried about him becaue of his suppliment use but apparently we were wrong.
  5. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Cushing has been much, much better than I ever expected (I took him off of my draft board), but I'm still worried in the long run about his injury and steroid history. I also don't think he fits at all for the Pats. He's a 4-3 OLB all the way.
  6. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    1. To say a guy's stats are down because he isn't on the field, is a pretty weak argument. Obviously if he were better, he'd be on the field a lot more. At the same time, I do agree that as rookies they get a bit of a benefit of the doubt. Don't worry though, I'll post after next season on this too.

    2. Darius Butler's stats are actually good for a rookie corner who has probably only played half the season. 4 passes defensed and 2 int's at this point are outstanding.
  7. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No Jersey Selected

    I was never for drafting Barwin, but your number one point is extremely weak. In that line of thinking, Brandon Meriweather sucks because he wasn't on the field a whole lot through eight games in his first season.
  8. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    I failed to mention Orakapo 26 tks and 5.5 sacks on a bad team. That being said i haven't watched the skins this year yet so i don't know about how good or bad they're defene is.
  9. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I agree that rookies should be given the benefit of the doubt. Meriweather had 28 tackles his rookie year, not too bad for a DB. He also showed flashes of his talent even in his first year. He also played on a Pats team that was already stacked.

    Even though it's early, it's good to know given this season so far that we didn't draft Barwin in the 1st round (something a few notable people here wanted), given his performance so far. The Texans are giving Cushing a ton of playing time, so it's not like the opportunity isn't there for Barwin on the Texans if he can perform.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2009
  10. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Pats rookies often don't make the field a lot. Look at Brandon Meriweather. Conversely, Eugene Wilson was excellent as a rookie and went downhill from there.

    You can bash Barwin, but that means you also think Ayers, Sintim and Everette Brown are all busts based on their lack of numbers produced in the first half of their rookie season. That's pretty lame.

    I'd personally wait 2-3 years before declaring any of those guys busts.
  11. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I agree we won't know for certain until probably year 2 or 3. You can be sure I'll be keeping tabs on Barwin in the future.

    However, it's funny you bring up Ayers, since Broncos fans on discussion boards have been talking about how he's a bust.
  12. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree Barwin hasn't set the NFL on fire so far. I'll be keeping tabs on him too.

    I would also say that all 3 USC linebackers are so far exceeding my expectations for them. I didn't like Cushing at all, and he's been fabulous for Houston. I liked Matthews but didn't feel he was a good fit for the Pats. He's done well for GB. I didn't think Maualuga was a good fit for the Pats, and he has surprised me so far with how he's played for Cincinnati.

    Overall I'm happy with our day 1 picks. Chung is coming on strong, and Butler and Vollmer look like studs. Ron Brace is the big question mark right now, but it's too early to tell. We usually don't make a mistake on a DL that early in the draft, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for a while.
  13. BritPat

    BritPat Rookie

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    I've not seen a better OLB than Cushing this season full stop.

    He's on course to go to the Pro-Bowl, let alone win DROTY.
  14. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm frankly shocked. He simply was not a dominant player in college. I remember one or two NFL draft analysts kept saying "this is the kind of guy who should be a better pro than college player," guess those are guys to listen to in the future.

    That said...Cushing was a #15 overall pick with tons of experience, the kind of guy who'd darned well better hit the ground running. Yet both this year and historically, he's the exception in actually doing so. Just look at polished, experienced Larry English who was taken with the very next pick.

    I've tallied up before the vast number of high picks spent on Pats OLB types and how few have lived up to the draft status. Looking at the many from this draft -- Barwin, Maybin, English, Brown, Matthews, Sintim -- it's clear that Cushing is the huge outlier in his earlier productivity. It's also clear that we have no idea what this bodes for their future. For instance...Barwin was a #46 pick. Another big OLB type was drafted #46 two years earlier. Here are that guy's full-season rookie stats:

    14 tackles, 4 sacks, 0 passes defended

    Does that make LaMarr Woodley a bust?
  15. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Great point about Woodley. Terrific comparison. Highly routed Quentin Groves, who many on this board desperately wanted for the Pats, went #54 in 2008 and produced 13 tackles, 2.5 sacks and 1 pass defended over 16 games in his rookie season. Groves hasn't blossomed like Woodley, but he was highly regarded coming out of Auburn. And Steward Bradley, taken #87 in 2007, produced 14 tackles, 1 sack and 1 pass defended in 16 games his rookie year before blossoming in 2008.

    And thanks for reminding me that I forgot to include #12 Aaron Maybin and #16 Larry English in my comparison of backup DE/LBs with Barwin. Maybin: 6 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 passes defended; English: 13 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 pass defended.

    As you say, Brian Cushing is clearly the outlier. And that includes #4 Aaron Curry (44 tackles, 2 sacks, 3 passes defended). I'm shocked - I thought Houston was crazy when they took Cushing #15, and when he missed some preseason time with an injury I thought he was going to be a abust as a rookie. My bad. The way he's playing right now he reminds me a lot of Minnesota's Chad Greenway, which is a big compliment. With that in mind, I'm still not convinced (a) that he'll won't be injury prone long-term, and (b) that he would have been a fit at all for the Pats at LB. Maybe at SILB opposite Mayo, but he's not a 3-4 OLB for us at all.
  16. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some other rookie comparisons, through 8 games.

    At safety, #33 Louis Delmas with 8 games started, 47 tackles, 1 sack, 6 passes defended, 1 INT, and 1 fumble recovered and returned for a TD. NFL rookie of the month for October. #34 Patrick Chung with 0 games started, 20 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 pass defended, and 1 INT. Clearly Delmas will be the better safety over the long term.

    At CB, #25 Vontae Davis with 2 games started for Miami, 23 tackles, 0 sacks, 6 passes defended and 2 INTs, including 1 for a TD. #41 Darius Butler with 2 games swtarted, 12 tackles, 0 sacks, 4 passes defended, and 2 INTs (0 TDs). Davis is clearly looking like the better player at this point.

    Not terribly useful.
  17. BritPat

    BritPat Rookie

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    He he, it's always fun predicting who will do what.

    The pair of you are absolutely right though.
  18. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    Clearly Barwin is 1.) Still learning to play defense and 2.) Learning to play in a whole new scheme.

    I think we should give him a another year or two before we learn what he is truly is about.

    And even though he is not starting I do not think we should take his special teams contribution lightly.
  19. MrNathanDrake

    MrNathanDrake Rookie

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    1. Way too early to call Barwin a bust.

    2. He's playing in a different scheme than he would be playing in if he were on the Pats. On the Patriots Barwin would be a Special Teams/OLB/TE. Heck, I'd rather have him than Ninkovich at this point
  20. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Woodley was a rookie on a stacked Blitzburg team.

    Connor Barwin doesn't play linebacker for the Steelers like Woodley, a team known for being constantly stacked at linebacker. He plays for the Texans, a team who could use help on D and who are giving another rookie defender lots of playing time.

    I do agree that it's too early to tell though. It was just an update, since there seemed to be a million 'Draft Barwin in the 1st Rd' threads, which all suddenly died the moment people saw him play.

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