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Congradulations Sarah Palin ....Your the Winner

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by reflexblue, Dec 21, 2009.

  1. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    Yes thats right Sarah you've won, come on down and collect your prize for "Lie of the Year"

    PolitiFact | PolitiFact's Lie of the Year: 'Death panels'


    "Death panels."......Seniors and the disabled "will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care."......Sarah Palin Friday August 9, 2009
  2. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    It's not that ridiculous. In England they do have a value per year based on age to determine if a procedure is "cost effective". Rahm's brother, who was (or is) an advisor to obama is fully into it.

    Regarding Medicare I think the cuts are a farce to make obamacare look affordable and the cuts won't happen. However if the cuts do happen and they take out $500B from Medicare with the number of recipients increasing and old people living a little longer each year . . . .well, you do the math.
  3. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    I stand by the award...you rationalize much :singing:
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
  5. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    Ahmm, BF SHE LIED OK Every One THINKS SHE LIED, thats why she won, She WON The Award FOR "Best Lie of the Year" as voted by the public. :rocker: :singing:
  6. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I can't help what the public thinks. That is what it is. But what England has is a nicer phrased "death panel" and we know the Dems want to get there, though thankfully they won't for an extended period.
  7. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    If you can't help what the people think then sue for peace cause its all over. :eat1:
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Thankfully we'll get a lot more Republican Congressmen in a year thanks to "what the people think". We just have to hold on until then.
  9. PatsFanInVa

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    Read "Rahm's Brother's" co-authored paper, if your no doubt scare-link story even gives a link to the actual paper.

    They do a survey of a number of ways to determine how to distribute scarce resources. The most frequently talked about issue is organ donation. I'm not even bothering w/the cherry picking excercise - the first thing they do is walk through the advantages and disadvantages of each system. In a survey like that, I could do an out-take of where Emannuel et al. talk about the advantages of a lottery system, and conclude that they see absolutely no advantage to any rational distribution of scarce resources. Read the paper, not the scare-quotes.

    The choices available include first come first served, random lottery, and systems like quality-life-year calculations and unadjusted life-year calculations. (For example, if you have cancer that's metasticized and is in every other organ in your body, and your life expectancy is 6 months if you're lucky... and I'm good for 30 years... and there's one healthy heart/lung that both our doctors want, should that be a consideration?)

    If you argue against "Death Panels" because they choose based on one set of criteria, you argue against any form of decision-making.

    If you accord scarce resources based on who has the most money, it's a death panel to kill the poor.

    If you accord scarce resources based on maximum remaining healthy life years, for example, it's a "death panel" for the terminally ill.

    If you accord scarce resources based on lottery only, you can crow that it's the "fairest" thing in the world and there's "no death panel," but you kill the 22-year-old who needs the heart and give it to the 86-year-old who is riddled with cancer.

    Emmanuel (et al.'s) paper advocated for an ethical framework that is other than pure lottery. So stop trying to kill 22-year-olds who need the heart and are otherwise healthy. :)

    Seriously, the paper actually advocates for retaining a lottery model, where people always have a chance for the scarce resource, even if it's rationally not ideal, specifically because you never want to shut off all hope, even if rationally the resources should go where it can do the most good.

    However, Emmanuel et al. argue that the lottery should be weighted. In other words, they argue that pure irrational random chance should not be the driver for all such decisions, and they also reject the weighting by class that currently pertains (i.e., resources go to those with insurance that can pay or to those who can pay themselves) -- this being in the case of procedures that are less dramatic than organ acquisition. (black market organ acquisitions aside.)

    Your complaint, then, is either

    1) that you believe the only way to determine the distribution of scarce resources is completely irrationally, or

    2) that you believe in another form of death panel entirely, for example, a class death-panel that kills the poor.

    PFnV
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
  10. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    I'm just saying the Zeke advocates death panels and England executes (pun intended) them. That's it.

    As to what I think, pretty much everything in the world is dictated by money. What kind of car you have, what kind of house you have, what kind of food you can eat. I see no reason that what kind of medical care you get shouldn't be included. I bet I wouldn't have gotten the same medical care Ted "the murderer" Kennedy got.
  11. Mabeyitstrue

    Mabeyitstrue Banned

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    and what are they going to do BF? they going to part the seas?SAVE US FROM THE BAD MEN?

    lmfao your such a tool, there is no hope for ppl like you. Your just too far gone..........
  12. MrSparkle

    MrSparkle Rookie

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    Interesting set of choices. Funny how a group of 5,000 readers has, in your mind, becomes "the public" or "Every One". When you say "Every One" you mean "all us Libs", right?

    Fear Sarah, the more ridicule she gets from the left the more I like her. She's doing something right to scare you guys so much. I may even have to vote for her. Anyone that riles up the left as much as she does gets my respect. I only hope it continues. Keep her in the news and minds of people out there.
  13. Mabeyitstrue

    Mabeyitstrue Banned

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    Poor baby I feel soooooooo bad for her.............She just can't get a fair deal can she?

    She's just misunderstood, lmfao
  14. MrSparkle

    MrSparkle Rookie

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    Did the pot just call the kettle black. You think you have a clue, don't you.

    Maybe when you graduate High school your girlfriend will let you have your own opinions.
  15. PatsFanInVa

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    In other words you are repeating a lie, and are unable or unwilling to read Emmanuel et al.'s actual paper.

    Actually, that is not the case. For example, racial bias still affects your outcomes in the larger majority society across the income spectrum, particularly if you compare (for example) two people of equal and high status but not attired to reflect that status.

    However, you are correct in that far too much in this world is dictated by how much money you have. In other words, if two people of high status regardless of race try to hail a cab wearing perfectly tailored suits, they're more likely to get that cab than two people, one black, one white, try to hail that cab dressed like crap -- whether or not they could afford to dress otherwise.

    As to whether classism is good, because it exists (per your implication,) or whether classism is bad, because it is wrong (per my own world view,) I think "it just is" cannot be an answer in any society we would choose to live in. Certainly it is not a sufficient answer for the majority of society that is not a member of an economic elite.

    I see a reason that the medical care you receive shouldn't be included, and if you don't see it, you should really examine some of your assumptions, in my humble opinion.

    But I think you're lying, actually. If you're not, say out loud (just as practice),

    "No, Doctor, give the liver to him -- I believe in this above all, money should determine health outcomes. After all, I'm moderately well-off... but he's a Kennedy."

    PFnV
  16. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    That phrases it fairly well. We've never had something as big as obamacare pass on a party line vote with the significant majority of the voters against it. Combine that with obama's false claims of openness and bi-partisanship on the campaign trail and it makes you shake your head.
  17. Harry Boy

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    They have to see her as a Threat and a big one, all the media has to do is say her name once in the news and MSNBC goes insane, if Sarah puts on a pair of snow shoes and goes for a walk and MSNBC hears about it Chris (mush mouth) Matthews will be spitting, drooling and screaming for a month about it.

    GO GET EM SARAH, MSNBC IS GOING TO HELP YOU BECOME THE NEXT PRESIDENT

    AMERICA'S FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT SHE HAS AS MUCH EXPEIRENCE AS THE CLOWN WE NOW CALL PRESIDENT.
  18. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    They more or less do it in Italy. It's part cost related, and part population control. I'm not sure why people are suprised at the notion, or disbelieving that such a policy can exist. It's not so much a row of 9 judges like the SJC or something, where these old people will line up, and one by one walk across to be judged with a thumbs up, or thumbs down. It's simply a back room decision, similar to a corporate meeting, where the limits on care will be decided. It becomes a matter of ROI in a sense, where the question of cost effectiveness, or efficiency is asked. At age X, is it cost effective to provide treatment Y. Yes it is, no it isn't. I'm really not sure why this is so hard to believe for some people. Consider the double savings as well here. You'd have the funding gubmit deciding on the costs of care for the elderly, which represents a direct savings. Less care, less cost for the gubmit system. Attached to that, is the savings associated with having older people die sooner. We all know that the elderly are a massive drain on services. They no longer work mostly, and thus provide fewer tax dollars (revenue) to the gubmit, yet they suck out funds in the form of SS payments, medicare, assisted living, medical costs, etc. How much money would be saved if a person died at 80, instead of 85? Do the math on that, and tell me that some beaurocrats in a back room aren't going to side with the numbers, over grandma. It is what it is fellas. From strictly a numbers end it's a legitimate fiscal model.
  19. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Two things :

    I didn't start this about how it should be, I was just pointing out that both the obamas and the English DO have death panels so the concept here is unfair to Palin.

    Regarding the quote above, of course I wouldn't want "The Murderer" to live over me. And I wouldn't have voted to save that worthless piece of sh!t life. But he would get better treatment than me, that's how the world works. And I would expect better treatment than some homeless guy or 300 pound single mother who sits on the couch all day.
  20. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Right, you can make a good argument on either side of it. But to laugh at the phrase of "death panels" is bullsh!t by the left because they're real and they're coming - especially if they actually cut $500B from Medicare (which they won't).

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