Concerns about the game from a Steelers fan

[SVN]

Great responses, by the way. I mean, for Patriots fans. [grin] Thanks. I'll try to address them each.

Ben is extremely mobile, and what makes him even more dangerous as a roll-out QB is his size and strength. I've seen defenders lower their heads and cry because they thought they had him in the backfield for a 10-yard loss, he escaped, and threw a 20-yard strike to Hines Ward or Heath Miller.

He's been sacked so much because Bruce Arians, the aforementioned idiot/offesnive coordinator, opened up the season with a bunch a four and five receiver sets, empty backfield sets, that Ben in part designed.

Arians would rather be Ben's buddy than his coach, and Ben had a poor relationship with Ken Whisenhunt, the OC during our 2005 Super Bowl run. Whisenhunt gave Ben the game plan Sunday morning via fax, he was given a package for each play, and although he could make minor adjustments, he was the indian, not the chief.

Anyway, with our offense strung out all over the width of the field like a bunch of buoys in the North Atlantic, Ben was easy pickin's for enemy blitzes. I believe the Patriots only ran an empty backfield set ONCE against Baltimore, and it was a ******* disaster: Brady got clobbered off an end blitz. There's a reason the Houston Oilers were the last team to feature the run-n-shoot, like 20 years ago. LBs and safeties are too fast in the NFL not to bring in blockers.

Against Cincy last week, all that got chucked, and Pittsburgh's offense tightened in some toward the center. I might be wrong, but I don't believe Ben was sacked once. Of course, that was Cincinnati, who has one of the worst defenses in the league, but scheme-wise they're moving in the right direction.

I think the Ben is My Buddy I'll Let Him Coach the Team bull**** is finally waning. My hope is that he'll reach Brady's level of understanding: play your role well within a good system, you win. In football, it's better to serve in heaven than rule in hell, truly.

The other issue is the right side of our OL, as I mentioned above. The article I cited was a "blueprint," if you will, for how to collapse Pittsburgh's line and contain Ben at his strength: rolling out and throwing. Bunching in our offense will put us in a position to counter that if Belichik mimics Mangini's plan, but I'm afraid that Arians isn't smart enough to keep up with Belichik's in-game adjustments. I hope I'm wrong.

iam not much into football technique but i think this new OC of yours is the wild card for the pats. I always thought that as long as cowher was there he would run the ball on 1st and 2nd and then pass which made you guys predictable. The fact that bruce arians has introduced the passing game more makes them more dangerous IMO. And lets not forget, the steelers won in the playoffs and the SB because they started passing on 1st down. Had they stuck with the old cowher plan against indy they wouldve gotten stuffed and gone nowhere. I maybe wrong but the change in approach by the steelers makes them more of threat than the old run run run approach.

 

[SVN]

The Steeler's offensive line is their weakness by far. You should hace zero concerns with them moving anyone off the ball in the run game. If the Steelers do move your D line, you should be VERY VERY concerned.

i heard belichick was asked by the pittsburgh media about your oline..this was his response..

Here in Pittsburgh they are always talking about the offensive line is giving up sacks, your offensive line doesn’t seem to have that problem, what is your secret to that success?



Well I think the Steelers have a good offensive line. I think they run the ball well. They run it better than anybody in the league. They complement that with passing on early downs and third downs. So I think they’re offensive line is good and I think they are a hard team to stop in the running game and they are hard to get pressure on. But anytime you have trouble in the passing game, usually, in my experience, it is related to everything. It’s related to the route running, the timing of the passing game, blitz pick up and things like that, that involve the entire unit in the throwing, the catching and the protection. I think at the end of the year you break those down and you find out where the problems are and usually when you do well you can find good things everywhere and whenever you have problems they are usually spread between the skill players and the protection, the routes and sometimes the defense. You have to look at it on a play by play basis. I think their line is good.

so i think it really isnt as bad as an oline as much as it could be missed assignments by the skill players or bad route running.

 

[jct]

Steel74 is absolutely correct to have concerns about his team. It needs to be said that they have put forth a very good effort and have a very good team who could walk away as the best team this year...or not. Thank you for your productive discussion.

A fair analysis of our team would point out the considerable loss of Colvin, as well as the recent slide in production over the last 4 games.

Also anyone observing the NFL would agree that the Refs can be the deciding factor in any game.

Having said all the above this Sunday history will be decided.

I think these key points should indicate the outcome...
We CAN stop the run, until we game played to take away the INDY passing game we had a top 5 run defense.
Willie Parker gets a lot of carries but not much YPC I doubt he gets 100yds.
Roth will get sacked.
Cinn scored on Pitt we WILL score more.
Now that Asante is assurred FA, watch out he will play for a payday.
Tom will win if there is any way to do so.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

iam not much into football technique but i think this new OC of yours is the wild card for the pats. I always thought that as long as cowher was there he would run the ball on 1st and 2nd and then pass which made you guys predictable. The fact that bruce arians has introduced the passing game more makes them more dangerous IMO. And lets not forget, the steelers won in the playoffs and the SB because they started passing on 1st down. Had they stuck with the old cowher plan against indy they wouldve gotten stuffed and gone nowhere. I maybe wrong but the change in approach by the steelers makes them more of threat than the old run run run approach.

They could do that with Ben in manageable doses, and as long as he accepted that it worked. Neither Cowher or Whisenhut were willing to turn the offense over to Ben full time, with good reason. That is what he loves about his new OC and HC - they were, only now they are starting to take some of that back because they have seen how Ben is prone to mismanagement when left to his own devices. PS - Ben almost single handedly lost that Superbowl for the Steelers. If not for some creative officiating, he would have.

 

[JimmyCrackCorn]

I'll argue with it, because Pittsburgh wasn't throwing the ball in Ben's 1st 4 years as much as Miami did in Marino's day. Pittsburgh's passing rank over Ben's first 4 years:

2004: 28th in Passing YPG
2005: 24th in Passing YPG
2006: 9th in Passing YPG
2007: 24th in Passing YPG

If you want to look at attempts:

2004: 32nd in total passing attempts
2005: 32nd in total passing attempts
2006: T14th in total passing attempts
2007: 31st in total passing attempts

Please don't try to tell me that he isn't being "managed."

Do me a favor. Look up his yards per attempt. Tell me how he ranks.

 

[JimmyCrackCorn]

Your not the brightest bulb on the steel tree, are you...I'm a Steeler troll with 6000+ posts here...LOL

I'm a Pat's fan who knows my enemy. You're just a delusional troll who sees what he wants to see. You don't really even know your own team.


The JAG DB's are talking because Joey left a void. Cowher told them all to STFU (although Joey never really was much good at following instructions) after 2004 when he went into his learned from the master BB mode after years of watching and listening to his players write checks he couldn't cash. He struggled with Ben's ego prior to the face plant, and it only got worse thereafter. Back in 2004 Ben and Plax and El used to waste time scripting their own plays. That's one reason Cowher broke up that trio. Tomlin was apparently a tad late in coaching his yound DB to STFU. Tomlin knows there are a lot more things wrong with this Steelers team than there are with this Patriots team. He's working on those, but until and unless his players own their personal shortcomings, he won't get them fixed. I think Cowher knew that as well, and he knew some of his players were gonna be a hard sell on personal accountability - starting with Ben.

This is all just silly

 

[JimmyCrackCorn]

i heard belichick was asked by the pittsburgh media about your oline..this was his response..


so i think it really isnt as bad as an oline as much as it could be missed assignments by the skill players or bad route running.

This is all very true and I agree for the most part when it comes to pass protection. Some of the pas sprotection comes down to our left guard kendall Simmons as well( he is awful). I was more so referring to our run game. We get no push. Sometimes we fail due to defensive blitzes etc and sometimes just fail to move people.

 

[Steel74]

Football is really not that hard to figure when one understands that what you point out is 100% right for every team and every game. Control the LOS and you control the game.

You will have trouble getting to Brady once we adjust to your zone blitzes....you also should have success if you pound the ball, relentlessly and patiently, down our throats. Hearing that your OL on the right side is prone to breakdowns, may not be conducive to your success against us. Is this only against pass rushers or is it during runs as well??

Watch out throwing against us - seems that our secondary, for once is developing to be the strength of our "D" - Sanders a a beast and Asante is Pro bowl. Harrison is playing at a high level and our nickle and dime packages are really talented Gay, Baker & Meriwether. Weakness at the moment is Hobbs, he played well VS Baltimore though.

Agreed. Every football fan knows that, as infinitely complex as the game has become, at bottom it's about the trenches. This is why the Steelers' weakness at OL concerns me more than their other glaring weakness at secondary, even though our weak secondary matches up less favorably with the Patriots' strength, their passing game.

The right side of the Steelers OL has had run and pass problems. The key is RG Kendall Simmons, a 1st round pick from a few years ago who hasn't seemed to have ever recovered from adult onset diabetes. He dropped a ton of weight one year before camp, and hasn't looked good since.

I think among all units on a football team, the OL has to operate the most tightly as a unit, particularly in the middle. You can shore up weak tackles to an extent with tights end, but if your center is mediocre, as is ours, and your RG is weak, as is ours, if a team decides to bust open that gap by pouring defenders through it, the only solution is to stuff backs into the breach from the backfield, negating their ability to move the football downfield, or roll the QB and/or RB in the opposite direction.

Mangini exposed the problems with rolling Ben out, and I've seen the Steelers counter RG gap blitzes somewhat with counter sweeps and screens off-tackle left. My guess is that if Belichik starts pouring defenders through the gap behind Wilfork or Warren, the Steelers are going to have to roll left, either with runs or screens.

I don't think Pittsburgh will throw deep that often against New England's secondary. The weak point on that defense are the linebackers, and I think the Steelers will try to neutralize Thomas and get Miller and Ward in man coverage with Bruschi and Seau and Brown, draw the secondary in, and then go downtown with Holmes, who is our only deep threat.

Of course, that could play into New England's strength if the Steelers don't eat enough clock while scoring. Every time Brady is on the field, disaster is bound to strike.

 

[Steel74]

Great stuff, man. Thanks for coming on here.

Question: If the Pittsburgh secondary is so awful, why are they making like Muhammad Ali (or better, Freddie Mitchell) during this week?

Anthony Smith is a young, very emotional player who is a devastating hitter but not spectacular in coverage.

He's actually a less brilliant version of Polamalu, which sucks because our secondary is already weak and to have two Strong Safeties rather than a Weak Safety and a Strong Safety, doesn't help this unit get turnovers.

I'm less concerned by Smith and Tyrone Carter talking **** than I am with them talking **** about players they haven't played.

Smith in particular hasn't faced a passing juggernaut like what New England fields; the closest he's come is Cincinnati, which with Rudi Johnson out and Goldiechomps under-performing, is nothing like the tornado he's going to see in Foxboro.

 

[patsox23]

Wow, this is a really great thread. It's nice to see intelligence from fans of both teams without it devolving into a troll-fest!

Thank you all for your thoughts!

Ditto on that. Steeler74 has made good points and, most importantly, BACKED THEM UP. That's old-time patsfans.com right there. Please stay and stick around as a regular after the game. We always like having informative posters here, no matter the stripe.

 

[Steel74]

I'm going to have go ahead and disagree with both of you about Troy as a player. Troy Palamalu is an asset in our pass defense. He can cover tons of ground and closes like no one. In addition, he does a good job of knowing when to play the ball and when to make the big hit. Tyrone Carter is slow and a liability when we are in cover 2 as he can't cover the ground necessary. Carter will be a bigger liability this week as Ike will need help covering Moss over the top. While Troy could cover the ground and hit Moss in the ribs when he goes up for the ball, Carter will be no where to be found.

Carter is actually more reliable than Troy in supporting the run. People who do not watch the Steelers every week see Troy on sports center making plays in the backfield in the running game. He is very capable of making these big plays; however, he is an AWFUL open field tackler. He has poor technique and misses frequently.

Agreed. I wasn't conceding that Polamalu is a liability in pass coverage, I was simply saying that he couldn't be a whole lot worse than the personnel that are already in there.

Polamalu is a potential Hall of Famer, a serious playmaker. I think the Steelers defense suffers considerably without him in the game. I worries me that he's injured this much.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

Do me a favor. Look up his yards per attempt. Tell me how he ranks.

Hey, I did the work earlier, why don't YOU look up his yards per attempt. Also, you are changing the argument, of course his YPA is going to go UP if he ISN'T THROWING THAT OFTEN.

(Ok, I did do some work, and as I argued here, his YPA were #1 in 2005, the year he was DEAD LAST in attempts.)

 

[Steel74]

Because Tomlin is allowing them to. All players have egos that in most cases don't match their talent. DB's and WR's historically have among the largest egos. In Pittsburgh you didn't used to hear much from them since Joey did most of the chest thumping on defense and Ward is not prone to it. Joey is now somewhat muzzled in Miami though. And Polamalu, even if he were playing, is beyond the quiet man. So the media is left with the JAGish DB's to bait this week, and they are taking it as JAGish players will...

This is the only Steelers fan to visit here who seems to see his team for what it is. Good by 2007 NFL standards, but not nearly elite. Ben is inconsistent, and Ariens is feeding his ego which wants to be the guy. Cowher had to walk a fine line between not wanting to crush that ego and knowing he needed to manage it, knowing in small controlled doses like in the 2005 playoffs as a WC he could be a useful weapon. Because he and Whisenhut also knew that SB Ben was the flip side he had to guard against exposing and he needed to stay committed to a ball control run to high percentage pass offense most of the time. Ben isn't big on honest self assessment so he bristled at the notion of being manageable. He's another gunslinger at heart. He's eager to take chances because he believes he can make plays and if he screws up he believes he can redeem himself. I really think that is why Cowher left and why Whisenhut didn't get the nod - they knew the battles would be heating up between a HC and that QB who needed to be managed. Tomlin and Ariens have turned the offense over to him, and we have seen the mixed results. They could just as easily be 7-5 heading to Foxboro having faced an extremely weak schedule.

The Steelers never needed an elite QB. They were built for years under Cowher to just need consistently functional. Ben can be that, but he doesn't really want to. He wants to be the man in the Steel City. And they aren't built to cover the man's miscues when facing an elite offense or a competent D. If Ben or Fast Willie turn the ball over on Sunday like they did against Cincy last Sunday, they are toast. They've gotten away with it a lot against mediocrity - they survived 4 turnovers against Cincy last week, we haven't turned the ball over hardly at all facing some pretty tough defenses and more explosive offenses than Pittsburgh has matched up against all season.

We have twice as many INTS as their vaunted D, our 80 year old LB has more INTS than any of their DB's, we have twice as many rushing TD's and each of our RB's has as many or more rushing TD's than old Fast Willie. The Steelers are one of those teams who aren't quite as good as their record might indicate, and Tomlin knows that even if some of his players and his secondary don't. Had they played our schedule in 2007, they'd probably be clawing for a WC and possibly a .500 team.

I'll have to disagree with, or at least qualify some of what you've said.

First off, Cowher left because of money. Whisenhunt wasn't hired because of money. You'd have to know the Rooneys to know that.

And I think it was Tomlin, actually, who was responsible for Smith's contrition in his second interview on Sportscenter, i.e., if we play well, we'll win, yadda yadda.

No doubt Tomlin took Smith aside and told him what Belichik tells his players: we don't talk about football, we play it.

If the Steelers are not elite -- and to paraphrase Lynn Swann, who said America's Team is the team that wins the Super Bowl -- it's entirely because of the square-wheeled, club-footed offense Arians has run.

There's no doubt in my mind a top-level coordinator like Whisenhunt or Chan Gailey could field an absolute machine with the talent on that team, even with the problems on the OL.

I'll reserve my real judgments about which teams are elite until the playoffs hit. That's the beauty of the NFL playoffs: they clarify like pure sunlight which teams have it and which teams don't. If you don't believe me, believe that Bill Belichik agrees with that sentiment a thousand percent.

I don't agree that the Steelers don't need an elite QB. Not in this man's NFL. The rules have been changed over the years to favor a passing game, and if you look at all of the teams that have won the Super Bowl since 1999 -- the Rams, the Patriots, the Steelers and the Colts -- all have or have had outstanding QBs, with the exception of Baltimore in 2000. Of course, when you pitch six shutouts in football you don't really need an offense. But they're an exception to the rule. No Ben, no Super Bowl win in 2005, even though he played poorly in that game. He was devastating in the second half of that season and in the playoffs.

The AFC East is considerably weaker this year than the AFC North; on the other hand, the Patriots have played -- and beaten -- better teams than the Steelers, while we've dumped at least two games to terrible teams.

I don't think the Patriots are a better team than the Steelers, I think that thus far they've played better. Again, I can assure you it's a distinction Belichik is well aware of.

 

[Steel74]

Well, I do think that the Steelers O-line is going to be overrun by the Patriots D, and we'll see a lot of Spaeth in the blocking game. However, I can definitely see Roethlisberger getting loose a few times and keeping the play alive long enough to allow Ward and company to get open. The Steelers run game really doesn't scare me. I hope they have their typical run-heavy game plan.

Offensively for the Patriots, we typically spread out the Steelers defense and embarrass them in the passing game. I see no reason to change much, unless weather dictates or Belichick goes mad scientist on us. LeBeau just might decide to blitz anyway and hope the corners can bang the receivers enough to throw off the timing on the hot routes. But without Polamalu, this is going to be a tough strategy to win with.

My guess is that this is a game that's going to be passes to Wes Welker early and often, to the tune of 100 yards and a TD, and a steady diet of Laurence Maroney and Heath Evans in the second half.

31-17 Patriots.

Yeah, Matt Spaeth can't block. Neither can Jerame Tuman. The only Steelers TE who can block is, unfortunately, Heath Miller, who is far more valuable being the brilliant pass catcher he is.

I think the Steelers will try to blitz vulnerable gaps in the middle of New England's line, hit Welker at the LOS, double-team Moss and take their chances in man coverage against Watson and Stallworth.

I have a feeling Kevin Faulk could be a big factor for New England, especially if Brady gets away from the middle pass rush and has to scramble outside the pocket.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

I'll have to disagree with, or at least qualify some of what you've said.

First off, Cowher left because of money. Whisenhunt wasn't hired because of money. You'd have to know the Rooneys to know that.

And I think it was Tomlin, actually, who was responsible for Smith's contrition in his second interview on Sportscenter, i.e., if we play well, we'll win, yadda yadda.

No doubt Tomlin took Smith aside and told him what Belichik tells his players: we don't talk about football, we play it.

If the Steelers are not elite -- and to paraphrase Lynn Swann, who said America's Team is the team that wins the Super Bowl -- it's entirely because of the square-wheeled, club-footed offense Arians has run.

There's no doubt in my mind a top-level coordinator like Whisenhunt or Chan Gailey could field an absolute machine with the talent on that team, even with the problems on the OL.

I'll reserve my real judgments about which teams are elite until the playoffs hit. That's the beauty of the NFL playoffs: they clarify like pure sunlight which teams have it and which teams don't. If you don't believe me, believe that Bill Belichik agrees with that sentiment a thousand percent.

I don't agree that the Steelers don't need an elite QB. Not in this man's NFL. The rules have been changed over the years to favor a passing game, and if you look at all of the teams that have won the Super Bowl since 1999 -- the Rams, the Patriots, the Steelers and the Colts -- all have or have had outstanding QBs, with the exception of Baltimore in 2000. Of course, when you pitch six shutouts in football you don't really need an offense. But they're an exception to the rule. No Ben, no Super Bowl win in 2005, even though he played poorly in that game. He was devastating in the second half of that season and in the playoffs.

The AFC East is considerably weaker this year than the AFC North; on the other hand, the Patriots have played -- and beaten -- better teams than the Steelers, while we've dumped at least two games to terrible teams.

I don't think the Patriots are a better team than the Steelers, I think that thus far they've played better. Again, I can assure you it's a distinction Belichik is well aware of.

I agree with much of what you've posted, and I think Ben is a great quarterback. But do you agree that the passing game is not the real strength of this team, given that they are 24th in YPG passing, and 31st in attempts?

 

[Steel74]

My feeling is that this will be a close game no matter what the difference in talent at different positions.

For one thing, I think the refs are a huge wild card. They really have allowed teams to hold Welker and Moss and also our D-line without consequence. That has turned three recent games into tighter games than they should have been. I find it hard to believe that the Steelers won't adopt that approach, at least until the refs get their head out of their ass. It completely upsets the timing of our pass game as well as the ability for guys to get open.

I see the same weakness in the Steelers team as others point out, starting with Ben, and please don't be angry since you seem to be playing nice, but I think Ben is seriously overrated. I think his superbowl appearance speaks for itself. Kordell Stewart had almost as much success, because the Steelers have long been about teamwork like the Patriots, which I respect. Yeah, Ben can win games with the gunslinger thing, but that attitude doesn't work very well in the modern NFL for an extended period of time. Truly, all QBs nowadays need to be game managers first, with the ability to make plays a equally important factor.

But I also see weaknesses in our team, outside of the insane pass attack. I think we fuction better as a team than as individual parts, with teamwork covering our ass a lot of the time.

I will be surprised if the Steelers cannot make a game out of it. If the refs call the game straight, it will be harder on the Steelers secondary. To me that will make a big difference.

I also think both us and the Steelers have played down to the competition during some weeks. I don't think that will be an issue for the Steelers this week, they are going to be very motivated.

I'm not angry, I just think you're wrong. Ben is the flip side to the Manning-Brady mold of elite QB, the gunslinger, as you put it. Favre, Romo, those types. Bradshaw had some gunslinger in him too, and the ability to make something out of nothing is very, very valuable.

But to argue that the gunslinger isn't elite because he doesn't fit the system mold like Manning and Brady is a miscalculation.

The disadvantage the system QB presents was seen in the 2005 playoff game between the Steelers-Colts; when the system broke down, and Manning was faced with broken protection and his receivers were covered, his check-down was taken out, his ability to improvise was not a factor.

Similarly, when Baltimore disrupted Brady's system, he was harder pressed to improvise. However, overall I think this distinction gets overdrawn. Manning and Brady have improvised when their systems have broken down and Ben and Romo and, holy ****, even Brett Favre, do run systems.

 

[Steel74]

Good stuff here, thanks for the information. One question I have about the Steelers offensive line is this, are they as big as Baltimore's? My sense on Monday night was that the Pats' D line was having troubles dealing with Baltimore's size (see Seymour against Ogden). Deossie has said that the Steelers offensive line is smaller, is this true?

Baltimore's interior linemen are about the same size as Pittsburgh's, in the 305-320 pound. Their tackles are HUGE: Gaither is 6'9/350 and Ogden is 6'9/345. Most teams have a hard time getting around the ends of Baltimore's line.

 

[Steel74]

Your not the brightest bulb on the steel tree, are you...I'm a Steeler troll with 6000+ posts here...LOL

I'm a Pat's fan who knows my enemy. You're just a delusional troll who sees what he wants to see. You don't really even know your own team.


The JAG DB's are talking because Joey left a void. Cowher told them all to STFU (although Joey never really was much good at following instructions) after 2004 when he went into his learned from the master BB mode after years of watching and listening to his players write checks he couldn't cash. He struggled with Ben's ego prior to the face plant, and it only got worse thereafter. Back in 2004 Ben and Plax and El used to waste time scripting their own plays. That's one reason Cowher broke up that trio. Tomlin was apparently a tad late in coaching his yound DB to STFU. Tomlin knows there are a lot more things wrong with this Steelers team than there are with this Patriots team. He's working on those, but until and unless his players own their personal shortcomings, he won't get them fixed. I think Cowher knew that as well, and he knew some of his players were gonna be a hard sell on personal accountability - starting with Ben.

The Rooneys don't give coaches the kind of latitude you folks have seen Bob Kraft give Belichik.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

In Ben's first 4 years in the league, he has the 2nd highest passer rating EVER behind Dan Marino. That's kinda hard to argue with.

I would say nice try, but even a tool like you probably knows the truth.

Cowher was cherry picking Ben's pass attempts for his first few years. He threw about 11 passes a game. No QB in history was babied more than Ben. Cowher simply avoided letting him throw the ball for years.

He played two decent playoff games during the superbowl run and then reverted back to the pumpkin with the 22 rating QB we saw in the superbowl. I give him credit for holding himself together for two games in the playoffs but he should have lost the superbowl. The reason he was effective in the playoffs that year was because it was so incredibly unusual for him to spread the field and throw the ball that it had a big element of surprise. Wow, he can do more than hand off the ball!

Overrated big time.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I'm not angry, I just think you're wrong. Ben is the flip side to the Manning-Brady mold of elite QB, the gunslinger, as you put it. Favre, Romo, those types. Bradshaw had some gunslinger in him too, and the ability to make something out of nothing is very, very valuable.

But to argue that the gunslinger isn't elite because he doesn't fit the system mold like Manning and Brady is a miscalculation.

The disadvantage the system QB presents was seen in the 2005 playoff game between the Steelers-Colts; when the system broke down, and Manning was faced with broken protection and his receivers were covered, his check-down was taken out, his ability to improvise was not a factor.

Similarly, when Baltimore disrupted Brady's system, he was harder pressed to improvise. However, overall I think this distinction gets overdrawn. Manning and Brady have improvised when their systems have broken down and Ben and Romo and, holy ****, even Brett Favre, do run systems.

I think that Ben isn't elite because he isn't elite, quite honestly. Romo has proven much more dangerous than Ben in early results. Ben has been an interception machine over the years. He spent his first few years throwing around 11 passes a game.

Brady wasn't harder pressed to improvise in the Ravens game, his players where held. There is a difference. You can't pass to a guy with his shirt around his head. Brady doesn't have a problem rolling out to complete a pass if it is there, like in the Panthers superbowl when he set the all time record for superbowl passing, in contrast to Ben's 22 rating in the superbowl against the Seahens. Brady rolled out constantly in that game. He runs for a lot more first downs than people ever expect (which is why it still works almost every time-element of surprise). Brady also doesn't take the blame for all the dropped passes in the Ravens game.

I have seen plenty of games where Ben stunk. How many Brady games have we seen like that?

Manning has no ability to improvise. Case closed.