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Concerns about the game from a Steelers fan

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Steel74, Dec 7, 2007.

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  1. Steel74

    Steel74 Rookie

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    In responding to Patriots fan BadMoFo on another thread regarding Troy Polamalu's availability on Sunday, I outlined the two things I think we need to do to beat New England.

    If the Steelers can keep Brady off the field, pressure him when he's on it, and prevent Ben from getting creamed the way he was before last week's game against Cincinnati, I believe we have a good chance to win. If the two following scenarios play out, however, I think we're screwed.

    Anyway, here's part of the thread. Productive feedback is welcome.

    Originally Posted by BadMoFo:

    "Troy may help against the run and maybe be a better blitzer, but I think he is more of a liability on pass defense. He'd be better served rotating in with whoever else is there."

    Steel74:

    "Trust me, he's no more of a liability in pass coverage than the clowns we already have in our secondary. The only way the Steelers win is to keep Tom Brady off the field.

    End of story.

    Don't get me wrong, fortunately for us Steelers defensive coordinator Dick Le Beau is a genius, one of the true innovators in league history, and he'll have a scheme prepared for our defense that will at least mitigate what is for us a terrible mismatch.

    But you can't polish a turd, and if Brady is able to get the football off without our LBs and DLs taking him down or at least disrupting his passing lanes, we're totally ****ed, because our secondary cannot hang with New England's receivers the way Philly's and B-More's secondaries could.

    Since Rod Woodson left Pittsburgh, really, it hasn't exactly been a secret around the league that you can't beat Pittsburgh by running the football, you beat Pittsburgh by throwing. Early and often. New England just happens to have had a throwing offense since the advent of Brady in 2001, which is why we usually match up poorly with the Pats.

    On offense (for us, I mean), I'm sure Belichek has the Steelers-Jets game on a permanent loop and will attempt to test the right side of our OL, which is weak, and attach a spy to Ben the way Mangini did, as described in this article:

    http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/200...lever_spy.html

    QBs have tendencies, and just as Brady likes to step up into the pocket and throw, Ben loves to roll out and throw, usually to one side. I can see New England double-rushing Thomas behind Wilfork through the gap between our RG and Center, forcing Ben to roll out and sticking someone on him -- Seymour or Harrison -- and doing what the Jets did: forcing him to make a bad throw or taking him down. Of course, Ben is really hard to take down, but when he's fighting off tacklers he has less attention to pay to open receivers.

    And, unfortunately again for us, Bruce Arians, our offensive coordinator, is a total ******* idiot, and will be hard-pressed to adjust to Belichik's schemes. Belichick is playing chess, while Bruce is playing checkers."
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2007
  2. PATRIOT64

    PATRIOT64 Rookie

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    The main way that Pittsburgh can beat New England

    Dominate the Line of scrimmage on BOTH sides,not one,you have to dominate both - end of story

    If Pittsburgh's OL can find a way to open holes for Parker and block for Roethlisberger well giving him time to find Ward or Holmes, then the Patriots will be in a shootout and anything could happen at that point,If not the steelers may get blown out

    On the other hand on the DL for Pittsburgh must get in Brady's face,If Brady's OL dominates then Brady will have time to throw long to Moss and mix it with some long yards running from Maroney and thus once again a blowout.

    Your team needs to do both and well against this team.
    Plus controlling the clock
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2007
  3. Steel74

    Steel74 Rookie

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    Both of my keys to victory, so to speak, involve maintaining both sides of the line of scrimmage.

    My keys to victory EVERY week involve maintaining the line of scrimmage, and if you look at the three losses Pittsburgh has this year, two things have happened in every game: one, our OL has collapsed, always on the right side, and two, our defense has failed to get pressure on the QB before he was able to pick apart our jobber secondary.

    My overall key to victory for the Steelers against New England is one Belichik should be familiar with, since the Giants used it in the Super Bowl they won against Buffalo: if you can't stop a high-powered offense, keep it the **** off the field.

    Baltimore had that going for a while Monday night; I remember the Ravens offense converting 3rd downs like crazy at one point, and the camera panning to Brady, who looked helpless on the sideline. But ultimately they couldn't sustain. They let up, Brady got back on the field in the fourth quarter and did what he does: he engineered a clutch game-winning drive. I hate to say it, but it was like watching Montana again.

    If we convert third downs, eat a lot of clock, and score TOUCHDOWNS, not field goals, in the red zone, I think we have a good chance to win, provided Pittsburgh's defense can stem the tide somewhat.

    New England is going to score their points. If we get into a shootout, we lose. Period.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2007
  4. mesoslo

    mesoslo Rookie

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    Your Oline cant protect benroth that well, so how do you expect to eat up the clock? Steelers sure dont run like the Vikings.

    Is Benroth not a mobile qb? How come he got sacked 35 times?
  5. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #17 Jersey

    Football is really not that hard to figure when one understands that what you point out is 100% right for every team and every game. Control the LOS and you control the game.

    You will have trouble getting to Brady once we adjust to your zone blitzes....you also should have success if you pound the ball, relentlessly and patiently, down our throats. Hearing that your OL on the right side is prone to breakdowns, may not be conducive to your success against us. Is this only against pass rushers or is it during runs as well??

    Watch out throwing against us - seems that our secondary, for once is developing to be the strength of our "D" - Sanders a a beast and Asante is Pro bowl. Harrison is playing at a high level and our nickle and dime packages are really talented Gay, Baker & Meriwether. Weakness at the moment is Hobbs, he played well VS Baltimore though.
  6. ClevTrev

    ClevTrev Rookie

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    Score more points.
  7. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Great stuff, man. Thanks for coming on here.

    Question: If the Pittsburgh secondary is so awful, why are they making like Muhammad Ali (or better, Freddie Mitchell) during this week?
  8. JimmyCrackCorn

    JimmyCrackCorn Banned

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    I'm going to have go ahead and disagree with both of you about Troy as a player. Troy Palamalu is an asset in our pass defense. He can cover tons of ground and closes like no one. In addition, he does a good job of knowing when to play the ball and when to make the big hit. Tyrone Carter is slow and a liability when we are in cover 2 as he can't cover the ground necessary. Carter will be a bigger liability this week as Ike will need help covering Moss over the top. While Troy could cover the ground and hit Moss in the ribs when he goes up for the ball, Carter will be no where to be found.

    Carter is actually more reliable than Troy in supporting the run. People who do not watch the Steelers every week see Troy on sports center making plays in the backfield in the running game. He is very capable of making these big plays; however, he is an AWFUL open field tackler. He has poor technique and misses frequently.
  9. DrLev

    DrLev Rookie

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    Wow, this is a really great thread. It's nice to see intelligence from fans of both teams without it devolving into a troll-fest!

    Thank you all for your thoughts!
  10. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Because Tomlin is allowing them to. All players have egos that in most cases don't match their talent. DB's and WR's historically have among the largest egos. In Pittsburgh you didn't used to hear much from them since Joey did most of the chest thumping on defense and Ward is not prone to it. Joey is now somewhat muzzled in Miami though. And Polamalu, even if he were playing, is beyond the quiet man. So the media is left with the JAGish DB's to bait this week, and they are taking it as JAGish players will...

    This is the only Steelers fan to visit here who seems to see his team for what it is. Good by 2007 NFL standards, but not nearly elite. Ben is inconsistent, and Ariens is feeding his ego which wants to be the guy. Cowher had to walk a fine line between not wanting to crush that ego and knowing he needed to manage it, knowing in small controlled doses like in the 2005 playoffs as a WC he could be a useful weapon. Because he and Whisenhut also knew that SB Ben was the flip side he had to guard against exposing and he needed to stay committed to a ball control run to high percentage pass offense most of the time. Ben isn't big on honest self assessment so he bristled at the notion of being manageable. He's another gunslinger at heart. He's eager to take chances because he believes he can make plays and if he screws up he believes he can redeem himself. I really think that is why Cowher left and why Whisenhut didn't get the nod - they knew the battles would be heating up between a HC and that QB who needed to be managed. Tomlin and Ariens have turned the offense over to him, and we have seen the mixed results. They could just as easily be 7-5 heading to Foxboro having faced an extremely weak schedule.

    The Steelers never needed an elite QB. They were built for years under Cowher to just need consistently functional. Ben can be that, but he doesn't really want to. He wants to be the man in the Steel City. And they aren't built to cover the man's miscues when facing an elite offense or a competent D. If Ben or Fast Willie turn the ball over on Sunday like they did against Cincy last Sunday, they are toast. They've gotten away with it a lot against mediocrity - they survived 4 turnovers against Cincy last week, we haven't turned the ball over hardly at all facing some pretty tough defenses and more explosive offenses than Pittsburgh has matched up against all season.

    We have twice as many INTS as their vaunted D, our 80 year old LB has more INTS than any of their DB's, we have twice as many rushing TD's and each of our RB's has as many or more rushing TD's than old Fast Willie. The Steelers are one of those teams who aren't quite as good as their record might indicate, and Tomlin knows that even if some of his players and his secondary don't. Had they played our schedule in 2007, they'd probably be clawing for a WC and possibly a .500 team.
  11. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Well, I do think that the Steelers O-line is going to be overrun by the Patriots D, and we'll see a lot of Spaeth in the blocking game. However, I can definitely see Roethlisberger getting loose a few times and keeping the play alive long enough to allow Ward and company to get open. The Steelers run game really doesn't scare me. I hope they have their typical run-heavy game plan.

    Offensively for the Patriots, we typically spread out the Steelers defense and embarrass them in the passing game. I see no reason to change much, unless weather dictates or Belichick goes mad scientist on us. LeBeau just might decide to blitz anyway and hope the corners can bang the receivers enough to throw off the timing on the hot routes. But without Polamalu, this is going to be a tough strategy to win with.

    My guess is that this is a game that's going to be passes to Wes Welker early and often, to the tune of 100 yards and a TD, and a steady diet of Laurence Maroney and Heath Evans in the second half.

    31-17 Patriots.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2007
  12. 5 Rings for Brady!!

    5 Rings for Brady!! Rookie

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    My feeling is that this will be a close game no matter what the difference in talent at different positions.

    For one thing, I think the refs are a huge wild card. They really have allowed teams to hold Welker and Moss and also our D-line without consequence. That has turned three recent games into tighter games than they should have been. I find it hard to believe that the Steelers won't adopt that approach, at least until the refs get their head out of their ass. It completely upsets the timing of our pass game as well as the ability for guys to get open.

    I see the same weakness in the Steelers team as others point out, starting with Ben, and please don't be angry since you seem to be playing nice, but I think Ben is seriously overrated. I think his superbowl appearance speaks for itself. Kordell Stewart had almost as much success, because the Steelers have long been about teamwork like the Patriots, which I respect. Yeah, Ben can win games with the gunslinger thing, but that attitude doesn't work very well in the modern NFL for an extended period of time. Truly, all QBs nowadays need to be game managers first, with the ability to make plays a equally important factor.

    But I also see weaknesses in our team, outside of the insane pass attack. I think we fuction better as a team than as individual parts, with teamwork covering our ass a lot of the time.

    I will be surprised if the Steelers cannot make a game out of it. If the refs call the game straight, it will be harder on the Steelers secondary. To me that will make a big difference.

    I also think both us and the Steelers have played down to the competition during some weeks. I don't think that will be an issue for the Steelers this week, they are going to be very motivated.
  13. Steel74

    Steel74 Rookie

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    Great responses, by the way. I mean, for Patriots fans. [grin] Thanks. I'll try to address them each.

    Ben is extremely mobile, and what makes him even more dangerous as a roll-out QB is his size and strength. I've seen defenders lower their heads and cry because they thought they had him in the backfield for a 10-yard loss, he escaped, and threw a 20-yard strike to Hines Ward or Heath Miller.

    He's been sacked so much because Bruce Arians, the aforementioned idiot/offesnive coordinator, opened up the season with a bunch a four and five receiver sets, empty backfield sets, that Ben in part designed.

    Arians would rather be Ben's buddy than his coach, and Ben had a poor relationship with Ken Whisenhunt, the OC during our 2005 Super Bowl run. Whisenhunt gave Ben the game plan Sunday morning via fax, he was given a package for each play, and although he could make minor adjustments, he was the indian, not the chief.

    Anyway, with our offense strung out all over the width of the field like a bunch of buoys in the North Atlantic, Ben was easy pickin's for enemy blitzes. I believe the Patriots only ran an empty backfield set ONCE against Baltimore, and it was a ******* disaster: Brady got clobbered off an end blitz. There's a reason the Houston Oilers were the last team to feature the run-n-shoot, like 20 years ago. LBs and safeties are too fast in the NFL not to bring in blockers.

    Against Cincy last week, all that got chucked, and Pittsburgh's offense tightened in some toward the center. I might be wrong, but I don't believe Ben was sacked once. Of course, that was Cincinnati, who has one of the worst defenses in the league, but scheme-wise they're moving in the right direction.

    I think the Ben is My Buddy I'll Let Him Coach the Team bull**** is finally waning. My hope is that he'll reach Brady's level of understanding: play your role well within a good system, you win. In football, it's better to serve in heaven than rule in hell, truly.

    The other issue is the right side of our OL, as I mentioned above. The article I cited was a "blueprint," if you will, for how to collapse Pittsburgh's line and contain Ben at his strength: rolling out and throwing. Bunching in our offense will put us in a position to counter that if Belichik mimics Mangini's plan, but I'm afraid that Arians isn't smart enough to keep up with Belichik's in-game adjustments. I hope I'm wrong.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2007
  14. Buchanty

    Buchanty Rookie

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    Should be an interesting game. I also think that the Steelers will be pumped for it as much as the Eagles and Ravens were for theirs. That usually means that they will play above themselves, until their confidence and rhythm is broken. However if the Pats get into rhythm I think the Steelers will struggle, though our D really has to tackle better especially if Ben gets out of the pocket.

    The three main offensive threats are Ben, Ward and Miller. Ben seems to have a tendency to throw to the right (Assante's side) and run to the left, so hopefully he can be contained with a good spy from a mixture of AD, VB and RH. On runs I have to believe that they will be trying to force the fumble on every run from Parker (4 last week was amazing, and one of those irksome things that dont get fixed easily or overnight).

    Hines Ward is still an elite WR, even if his stats dont reflect it. He is dangerous anywhere on the field and is capable of Marvin Harrison like catches. He also gives and takes hard hits and still comes back smiling. And he acts as a great decoy for Heath Miller who has great hands and always seems to find space (not quite Gonzallez or Dallas Clarke - but close to Witten). Our secondary is going to be busy keeping these two in check, and the best way to that may be to keep Ben in the pocket, limiting his timing and their ability to find space.

    My main concern for the Pats however is their energy level, especially after the last three night games and limited practice. Also they will have had less time to study the game plan since it wasnt ready until Thursday (one day later than usual). Hopefully their leisurely day on Wednesday will have helped.

    I am looking forward to Moss, Welker and Maroney (on flares and screens [please]) making life hard for their secondary.
  15. Grogan's neck roll

    Grogan's neck roll Rookie

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    Good stuff here, thanks for the information. One question I have about the Steelers offensive line is this, are they as big as Baltimore's? My sense on Monday night was that the Pats' D line was having troubles dealing with Baltimore's size (see Seymour against Ogden). Deossie has said that the Steelers offensive line is smaller, is this true?
  16. JimmyCrackCorn

    JimmyCrackCorn Banned

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    No he's not. The team sucks and he knows talk would make him look stupid. he'd be yapping more than anyone this week if he were a Steeler.

    Dude, are you from Pittsburgh? Do you watch the games? You may be a Steelers fan, but you sure don't sound like it. If you knew the real Steelers, you would know that things were MUCH more liberal under Cowher than they are now under Tomlin. Tomlin pulled Anthony Smith aside (did you even know his name?) and warned him never to write checks for the whole team. Cowher never told anyone what to say to the media.

    Any logical person knows this makes no sense.

    They could easily be 12-0 as well as all loses were close. they are right where they are supposed to be.

    You're right. No team needs a QB. You're a moron. Bring back Kordell!

    What is this? Who is we? The Pats? Are you a pats fan posing as a Steeler fan?
  17. JimmyCrackCorn

    JimmyCrackCorn Banned

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    In Ben's first 4 years in the league, he has the 2nd highest passer rating EVER behind Dan Marino. That's kinda hard to argue with.
  18. JimmyCrackCorn

    JimmyCrackCorn Banned

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    The Steeler's offensive line is their weakness by far. You should hace zero concerns with them moving anyone off the ball in the run game. If the Steelers do move your D line, you should be VERY VERY concerned.
  19. Grogan's neck roll

    Grogan's neck roll Rookie

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    I'll argue with it, because Pittsburgh wasn't throwing the ball in Ben's 1st 4 years as much as Miami did in Marino's day. Pittsburgh's passing rank over Ben's first 4 years:

    2004: 28th in Passing YPG
    2005: 24th in Passing YPG
    2006: 9th in Passing YPG
    2007: 24th in Passing YPG

    If you want to look at attempts:

    2004: 32nd in total passing attempts
    2005: 32nd in total passing attempts
    2006: T14th in total passing attempts
    2007: 31st in total passing attempts

    Please don't try to tell me that he isn't being "managed."
  20. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your not the brightest bulb on the steel tree, are you...I'm a Steeler troll with 6000+ posts here...LOL

    I'm a Pat's fan who knows my enemy. You're just a delusional troll who sees what he wants to see. You don't really even know your own team.


    The JAG DB's are talking because Joey left a void. Cowher told them all to STFU (although Joey never really was much good at following instructions) after 2004 when he went into his learned from the master BB mode after years of watching and listening to his players write checks he couldn't cash. He struggled with Ben's ego prior to the face plant, and it only got worse thereafter. Back in 2004 Ben and Plax and El used to waste time scripting their own plays. That's one reason Cowher broke up that trio. Tomlin was apparently a tad late in coaching his yound DB to STFU. Tomlin knows there are a lot more things wrong with this Steelers team than there are with this Patriots team. He's working on those, but until and unless his players own their personal shortcomings, he won't get them fixed. I think Cowher knew that as well, and he knew some of his players were gonna be a hard sell on personal accountability - starting with Ben.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2007
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