Comp Picks: 5th, 6th, 6th, 7th

[patsfan55]

trade some of the tradeable day two picks and get the best you can on day one because you don't have room for all those rooks unless you want to draft a bunch throw them against the wall and see what sticks.

i hafta agree here

 

[zippo59]

Did we get a pick for Dwight?

 

[pats1]

Did we get a pick for Dwight?

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/

The picks were a result of losing compensatory free agents Tom Ashworth, Matt Chatham, Andre David, Tim Dwight, Christian Fauria, David Givens and Adam Vinatieri.

The lone compensatory free agent signed by the Patriots was Reche Caldwell.

The Patriots' four picks was a league high, tied with the Ravens.

 

[zippo59]

trade some of the tradeable day two picks and get the best you can on day one because you don't have room for all those rooks unless you want to draft a bunch throw them against the wall and see what sticks.

It does seem like we have more picks than we know what to do with. Not the worst problem to have!

 

[spacecrime]

You didn't consider that other teams will have comp. picks too.

I don't understand what this means. If we were assigned certain picks, how do other teams affect that?

 

[PatsFanInVa]

We got picks in given rounds. The initial estimate posted here was counting by adding in our additional picks to the draft as it stood before comp picks were assigned. The second poster was pointing out that other teams' comp picks would probably change the positioning of these comp picks for the Pats.

Yeah, it is a downer.

I mean, what have Pioli and Belichick ever gotten us with a 5th or a 6th?

Heh.

PFnV

 

[Don Kipines]

So we have picks at 24, 28, 91, 123, 165, 171, 187, 208, 209, 247. Sounds great, right? Except -- check out what those picks yielded last year. Here are the names:

Jonathan Joseph, Marcedes Lewis, Frostee Rucker, Domata Peko, Tony Moll, Mike Hess, Jeromey Clay, Derrick Martin, Ethan Kilmer, and Anthony Cannon. The only guy who made any news out of that group last year was Frostee Rucker, and I'm pretty sure he was one of the guys who got popped on a sexual battery charge for the Bengals.

'05 was a better year -- that yielded Luis Castillo at 28 and Kerry Rhodes at 123. Also Rob Petiti at 209.

'04 yielded Steven Jackson at 24, Chris Gamble at 28 and Stacy Andrews at 123.

Maybe the best year was '01, a year that yielded Ed Reed in the first, Brian Westbrook in the third, and Justin Hartwig, a decent center, at 187.

All in all, though, not very encouraging. Of course the Pats' record in late rounds is better than most teams, but the track record seems to be that one of the two first-rounders will be a very good player, and the rest is a crap shoot.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Except the very top of the draft (and then again, look at Courtney Brown, Tim Couch, David Carr, and too many others to mention...) the whole draft is a crapshoot.

But some guys always leave the craps shoot with a few extra bucks, and some other guys just throw away the paycheck. Ya wonder how that works.

Let's take a look at what constitutes a crapshoot, divided into P = Productive, N = not productive, and * = too early to tell (for recent years.) I want to look at rounds 4-8 (for those years with a round 7 and 8,) specifically for the Pats, 1993 on. I'll bold the real gold-mine finds in late rounds. Especially for some old timers I'm going by memory, so feel free to correct me on my ratings. Picks courtesy NFL.Com:
(http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/teams/NE)

1993:
Rd4 Kevin Johnson (N), Corwin Brown (N)
Rd5 Scott Sisson (P), Richard Griffith (N)
Rd6 Lawrence Hatch (N)
Rd8 Troy Brown (P)
synopsis, struck gold once, got a serviceable kicker.

1994:
Rd4 John Burke (N)
Rd5 Pat O'Neill (N) (?) He was a punter - did he start for a while?
Rd6 Steve Hawkins (N), but I loved "A Brief History of Time"
Rd6 Max Lane (N)
Rd 7 Jay Walker (N), swear to God, that's his name.
Rd 7 Marty Moore (N)
synopsis: whiff, except maybe a punter.

1995:
Rd4 Dave Wohlabaugh (P)
Rd6 Dino Philyaw (N)
Rd7 Carlos Yancy (N) but I did find an article saying he got beat on a deep route by Yancey Thigpen, which is 2 more Yanceys than are in most NFL plays.
synopsis: Dave Wohlabaugh has had a long pro center career, and I'd call him late-round gold, except the round wasn't that late and other teams got most of the gold.

1996
Rd4 Heath Irwin (P)
Rd4 Chris Sullivan (N)(?) Defensive end - was still on the Pats in 01 as a backup, busted for heroin in 2005 (trivia.)
Rd4 Kantroy Barber (N)
Rd5 John Elmore (N)
Rd5 Christian Peter (N)
Rd6 Chris Griffin (N)
Rd6 Marrio Grier (N)
Rd6 Devin Wyman (N)
Rd7 Lovett Purnell (N) (?) Don't think so... but somehow remember the name
Rd7 J.R. Conrad (N)

Synopsis: A couple of Rd 4 linemen were serviceable as roster members. That's it.

1997
Rd 4 Damon Denson (N)
Rd 4 ed Ellis (N)
Rd 5 Vernon Crawford (N)
Rd 6 Tony Gaiter (N)
Rd 7 Scott Rehberg (N)
Synopsis: whiff.

1998
Rd 4 Leonta Rheams (N) and not sure this is a guy's name
Rd 5 Ron Merkerson (N)
Rd 6 Harold Shaw (N)
Rd 7 Jason Andersen (N)
Synopsis: Survey says, NNNNNNT!

1999
Rd 5 Derrick Fletcher (N)
Rd 6 Marcus Washington (N)
Rd 7 Michael Bishop (N) but he coulda been a contenda!
Rd 7 Sean Morey (N)
Synopsis: goose egg

2000
Rd 4 Greg Randell (P) (marginally)
Rd 5 Dave Stachelski (N)
Rd 5 Jeff Marriott (N)
Rd 6 Antwan Harris (P) (marginal), played backup or nickel back for a few years here, judging from stats. Don't really remember him.
Rd 6 Tom Brady (P) Well you knew this was coming.
Rd 6 David Nugent (N)
Rd 7 Casey Tisdale (N)
Rd 7 Patrick Pass (P) come on, not a superstar, but Pass at 7 is a gem.

Synopsis: This draft is the reason we won 3 super bowls. Specifically, the second day of this draft. But of course it was mainly 1 guy.

2001
Rd 4 Kenyatta Jones (N) this guy was not even the best Kenyatta in his draft class.
Rd 4 Jabari Holloway (N)
Rd 5 Hakim Akbar (N)
Rd 6 Arther Love (N)
Rd 6 Leonard Myers (N)
Rd 7 Owen Pochman (P), just not for us. Uh, we already had a kicker.
Rd 7 TJ Turner (N)
Synopsis: You could make arguments for Jones and Holloway, but neither was much use on the field. Pochman kicked for somebody for a while. It was no 2000, I'll say that.

2002
Rd 4 Rohan Davey (N) But the best QB named for a country in a Tolkein book ever.
Rd 4 Jarvis Green (P) All he does is make plays. When he's not stuck behind the best 3 D-linemen in the league.
Rd 7 Antoine Womack (N)
Rd 7 David Givens (P) are you kiddin me?
Synopsis: It'll be hard to ever hit like the 2000 late rounds

2003
Rd 4 Dan Klecko (P), borderline for us, real productive recently against us.
Rd 4 Asante Samuel (P) You know this guy's deal by now.
Rd 5 Dan Koppen (P) People are starting to talk about him being near-elite.
Rd 6 Kliff Kingsbury (N) He's no Rohan Davey but... well okay useless.
Rd 7 Spencer Nead (N) (?) Is he still out there? Give him a *?
Rd 7 Tully Banta-Cain (P) He produced great for a 7, but you can't call him "late round gold."
Rd 7 Ethan Kelly (N)
Synopsis: Excellent day 2, netting 4 productive players, 3 of whom started for good stretches in NE. Koppen and Samuel have pro-bowl potential.

2004
Rd 4 Dexter Reid (P) eh, he's okay for a 4th rounder. Still in the league.
Rd 4 Cedric Cobbs (N)
Rd 5 PK Sam (N) He's no Hart Lee Dykes.
Rd 7 Christian Morton (N)
Synopsis: Got Watson and Wilfork on day 1. Really shoulda stayed home for day 2.

2005
Rd 4 James Sanders (*)
Rd 5 Ryan Claridge (N)
Rd 7 Matt Cassel (*) We all want him to be to Brady as Young was to Montana. We all also want to win the lottery. We'll see... hopefully a very long time from now.
Rd 7 Andy Stokes (N) Mr. Irrelevant
Synopsis: really too soon to tell on this day 2 - might have been a good one.

2006
Rd 4 Garrett Mills (*) But we all have high hopes
Rd 4 Stephen Gostkowski (P) Played like an old vet, including long kicks under AFC Championship and playoffs pressure.
Rd 5 Ryan O'Callaghan (*)
Rd 6 Jeremy Mincey (N) (?) Waived. does he still have a shot at an asterisk?
Rd 6 Dan Stevenson (N) Released
Rd 6 Le Kevin Smith (*)
Rd 7 Willie Andrews (*) some potential.

synopsis: good second day, on the strength of Gost alone, definitely filled the AV gap, supposedly a huge question mark for the offseaon. A lot of possibles here as well.

Conclusion:
1993-1999 (1st half of study):
N (Non productives): 34
P (productives): 4
"Gold strikes": 1, and we still love ya, Troy!

2000-2006 (2nd half of study):
N (Non-productive) 22
P (productive) 13
"Gold Strikes": 6 - but includes role-players like Pass (for example,) as well as full-on phenomenal picks like Givens, Brady, and Samuel.

Let me repeat the caveat: I did this mainly from the list and my faulty memory, and welcome any corrections.

But I do not think the difference in second-day success is purely the product of my wacky memory. At any rate, if this list serves, I really do not think NE will have a problem finding value with the 5/6/6/7 we got in the comp picks (even if it means trading up for a 4 -- if in fact that's even necessary)

PFnV

 

[shakadave]

Our comp picks are better than nothing, but nothing much. Too bad Givens got hurt --- a big season out of him and we'd be in the 4th round.

 

[Don Kipines]

Except the very top of the draft (and then again, look at Courtney Brown, Tim Couch, David Carr, and too many others to mention...) the whole draft is a crapshoot.

But some guys always leave the craps shoot with a few extra bucks, and some other guys just throw away the paycheck. Ya wonder how that works.

Let's take a look at what constitutes a crapshoot, divided into P = Productive, N = not productive, and * = too early to tell (for recent years.) I want to look at rounds 4-8 (for those years with a round 7 and 8,) specifically for the Pats, 1993 on. I'll bold the real gold-mine finds in late rounds. Especially for some old timers I'm going by memory, so feel free to correct me on my ratings. Picks courtesy NFL.Com:
(http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/teams/NE)

1993:
Rd4 Kevin Johnson (N), Corwin Brown (N)
Rd5 Scott Sisson (P), Richard Griffith (N)
Rd6 Lawrence Hatch (N)
Rd8 Troy Brown (P)
synopsis, struck gold once, got a serviceable kicker.

1994:
Rd4 John Burke (N)
Rd5 Pat O'Neill (N) (?) He was a punter - did he start for a while?
Rd6 Steve Hawkins (N), but I loved "A Brief History of Time"
Rd6 Max Lane (N)
Rd 7 Jay Walker (N), swear to God, that's his name.
Rd 7 Marty Moore (N)
synopsis: whiff, except maybe a punter.

1995:
Rd4 Dave Wohlabaugh (P)
Rd6 Dino Philyaw (N)
Rd7 Carlos Yancy (N) but I did find an article saying he got beat on a deep route by Yancey Thigpen, which is 2 more Yanceys than are in most NFL plays.
synopsis: Dave Wohlabaugh has had a long pro center career, and I'd call him late-round gold, except the round wasn't that late and other teams got most of the gold.

1996
Rd4 Heath Irwin (P)
Rd4 Chris Sullivan (N)(?) Defensive end - was still on the Pats in 01 as a backup, busted for heroin in 2005 (trivia.)
Rd4 Kantroy Barber (N)
Rd5 John Elmore (N)
Rd5 Christian Peter (N)
Rd6 Chris Griffin (N)
Rd6 Marrio Grier (N)
Rd6 Devin Wyman (N)
Rd7 Lovett Purnell (N) (?) Don't think so... but somehow remember the name
Rd7 J.R. Conrad (N)

Synopsis: A couple of Rd 4 linemen were serviceable as roster members. That's it.

1997
Rd 4 Damon Denson (N)
Rd 4 ed Ellis (N)
Rd 5 Vernon Crawford (N)
Rd 6 Tony Gaiter (N)
Rd 7 Scott Rehberg (N)
Synopsis: whiff.

1998
Rd 4 Leonta Rheams (N) and not sure this is a guy's name
Rd 5 Ron Merkerson (N)
Rd 6 Harold Shaw (N)
Rd 7 Jason Andersen (N)
Synopsis: Survey says, NNNNNNT!

1999
Rd 5 Derrick Fletcher (N)
Rd 6 Marcus Washington (N)
Rd 7 Michael Bishop (N) but he coulda been a contenda!
Rd 7 Sean Morey (N)
Synopsis: goose egg

2000
Rd 4 Greg Randell (P) (marginally)
Rd 5 Dave Stachelski (N)
Rd 5 Jeff Marriott (N)
Rd 6 Antwan Harris (P) (marginal), played backup or nickel back for a few years here, judging from stats. Don't really remember him.
Rd 6 Tom Brady (P) Well you knew this was coming.
Rd 6 David Nugent (N)
Rd 7 Casey Tisdale (N)
Rd 7 Patrick Pass (P) come on, not a superstar, but Pass at 7 is a gem.

Synopsis: This draft is the reason we won 3 super bowls. Specifically, the second day of this draft. But of course it was mainly 1 guy.

2001
Rd 4 Kenyatta Jones (N) this guy was not even the best Kenyatta in his draft class.
Rd 4 Jabari Holloway (N)
Rd 5 Hakim Akbar (N)
Rd 6 Arther Love (N)
Rd 6 Leonard Myers (N)
Rd 7 Owen Pochman (P), just not for us. Uh, we already had a kicker.
Rd 7 TJ Turner (N)
Synopsis: You could make arguments for Jones and Holloway, but neither was much use on the field. Pochman kicked for somebody for a while. It was no 2000, I'll say that.

2002
Rd 4 Rohan Davey (N) But the best QB named for a country in a Tolkein book ever.
Rd 4 Jarvis Green (P) All he does is make plays. When he's not stuck behind the best 3 D-linemen in the league.
Rd 7 Antoine Womack (N)
Rd 7 David Givens (P) are you kiddin me?
Synopsis: It'll be hard to ever hit like the 2000 late rounds

2003
Rd 4 Dan Klecko (P), borderline for us, real productive recently against us.
Rd 4 Asante Samuel (P) You know this guy's deal by now.
Rd 5 Dan Koppen (P) People are starting to talk about him being near-elite.
Rd 6 Kliff Kingsbury (N) He's no Rohan Davey but... well okay useless.
Rd 7 Spencer Nead (N) (?) Is he still out there? Give him a *?
Rd 7 Tully Banta-Cain (P) He produced great for a 7, but you can't call him "late round gold."
Rd 7 Ethan Kelly (N)
Synopsis: Excellent day 2, netting 4 productive players, 3 of whom started for good stretches in NE. Koppen and Samuel have pro-bowl potential.

2004
Rd 4 Dexter Reid (P) eh, he's okay for a 4th rounder. Still in the league.
Rd 4 Cedric Cobbs (N)
Rd 5 PK Sam (N) He's no Hart Lee Dykes.
Rd 7 Christian Morton (N)
Synopsis: Got Watson and Wilfork on day 1. Really shoulda stayed home for day 2.

2005
Rd 4 James Sanders (*)
Rd 5 Ryan Claridge (N)
Rd 7 Matt Cassel (*) We all want him to be to Brady as Young was to Montana. We all also want to win the lottery. We'll see... hopefully a very long time from now.
Rd 7 Andy Stokes (N) Mr. Irrelevant
Synopsis: really too soon to tell on this day 2 - might have been a good one.

2006
Rd 4 Garrett Mills (*) But we all have high hopes
Rd 4 Stephen Gostkowski (P) Played like an old vet, including long kicks under AFC Championship and playoffs pressure.
Rd 5 Ryan O'Callaghan (*)
Rd 6 Jeremy Mincey (N) (?) Waived. does he still have a shot at an asterisk?
Rd 6 Dan Stevenson (N) Released
Rd 6 Le Kevin Smith (*)
Rd 7 Willie Andrews (*) some potential.

synopsis: good second day, on the strength of Gost alone, definitely filled the AV gap, supposedly a huge question mark for the offseaon. A lot of possibles here as well.

Conclusion:
1993-1999 (1st half of study):
N (Non productives): 34
P (productives): 4
"Gold strikes": 1, and we still love ya, Troy!

2000-2006 (2nd half of study):
N (Non-productive) 22
P (productive) 13
"Gold Strikes": 6 - but includes role-players like Pass (for example,) as well as full-on phenomenal picks like Givens, Brady, and Samuel.

Let me repeat the caveat: I did this mainly from the list and my faulty memory, and welcome any corrections.

But I do not think the difference in second-day success is purely the product of my wacky memory. At any rate, if this list serves, I really do not think NE will have a problem finding value with the 5/6/6/7 we got in the comp picks (even if it means trading up for a 4 -- if in fact that's even necessary)

PFnV

Nice work, very cool. Agree mostly, although I think you're a little harsh on some of these guys. Max Lane was a starter on a Super Bowl team. Corwin Brown was a decent player. Marty Moore was a productive special teamer who played a little on defense, a nice pick for a Mr. Irrelevant. I think also you'd have to call O'Callaghan and Sanders productive players already -- they've been starters and Sanders in particular looks like he's a good player.

One thing that's clear is that the current regime gets more out of their late-rounders than most regimes. Brady, Pass, Koppen, Samuel, Banta-Cain, Givens, Green -- we can pretty much count on this front office getting at least one guy who can really play in the late rounds. If you count the free-agents who contributed, like Wright, Gay, Neal, Mruczkowski, Paxton, etc., that's really the difference between the Pats and other teams.

 

[TealSox]

I'll be happy getting two or three contributors out of the draft. And that is with 2 first round picks!

 

[patsox23]

So we have picks at 24, 28, 91, 123, 165, 171, 187, 208, 209, 247. Sounds great, right? Except -- check out what those picks yielded last year. Here are the names:

Jonathan Joseph, Marcedes Lewis, Frostee Rucker, Domata Peko, Tony Moll, Mike Hess, Jeromey Clay, Derrick Martin, Ethan Kilmer, and Anthony Cannon. The only guy who made any news out of that group last year was Frostee Rucker, and I'm pretty sure he was one of the guys who got popped on a sexual battery charge for the Bengals.

'05 was a better year -- that yielded Luis Castillo at 28 and Kerry Rhodes at 123. Also Rob Petiti at 209.

'04 yielded Steven Jackson at 24, Chris Gamble at 28 and Stacy Andrews at 123.

Maybe the best year was '01, a year that yielded Ed Reed in the first, Brian Westbrook in the third, and Justin Hartwig, a decent center, at 187.

All in all, though, not very encouraging. Of course the Pats' record in late rounds is better than most teams, but the track record seems to be that one of the two first-rounders will be a very good player, and the rest is a crap shoot.

EXCEPT THE PATRIOTS F.O. WILL BE MAKING THE PICKS - huuuuuuge difference.

 

[patsox23]

Please tell me someone didn't just praise Max Lane. "Was a starter on a Super Bowl team." True, but that guy was AWFUL, especially in the Super Bowl you're referring to.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Nice work, very cool. Agree mostly, although I think you're a little harsh on some of these guys. Max Lane was a starter on a Super Bowl team. Corwin Brown was a decent player. Marty Moore was a productive special teamer who played a little on defense, a nice pick for a Mr. Irrelevant. I think also you'd have to call O'Callaghan and Sanders productive players already -- they've been starters and Sanders in particular looks like he's a good player.

One thing that's clear is that the current regime gets more out of their late-rounders than most regimes. Brady, Pass, Koppen, Samuel, Banta-Cain, Givens, Green -- we can pretty much count on this front office getting at least one guy who can really play in the late rounds. If you count the free-agents who contributed, like Wright, Gay, Neal, Mruczkowski, Paxton, etc., that's really the difference between the Pats and other teams.

A lot of those guys I just plain forgot, and wanted to get a broad brush picture, at least. The O'C and Sanders, I agree on, but I really did want to think about this logically... I mean, they could end up being really good, or eking out a couple more starts then getting banged up and sort of flushed down the drainpipe of draft history. I hope not, and I believe you're right, we'll remember both those names. But we know so little thus far.

I totally agree with you, that the thin "winning margin" for NE has been that anybody - anybody - might have to step up, and that losing the starter is not an excuse for losing the game. They expect to play 40 odd starters every year. It's just what they've had to do. So a lot of guys get playing time, and they get better -- and like you say, the Pats are able to turn up quite a few guys who can contribute, one way or another, 2nd day.

PFnV

 

[smg93]

Tully was at least a late round "bronze"

 

[TeamPats]

I know it's nitpicking, but didn;t the Bengals lose their 3rd round pick this year because of the supplemental draft last year and therefore the Colt's pick in the 3rd round is actually the 31st pick of the round and all other picks are one pick less as well including comp picks?

 

[bunzoburns]

Damnit, Givens screwed us over! He at least could have stayed healthy and caught a couple balls......

 

[patpatriot]

Did anyone ever come up with a definative answer to the "can't trade the comp pick but can select a player for another team and trade *him*" scenario? Is it legal?

 

[zippo59]

I think it's funny how all the best teams last year got the most picks. Baltimore, Indy, New England, San Diego....

The rich keep getting richer as they say.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Those good teams lost good players. The comp does not match the loss.