Welcome to PatsFans.com

Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warning

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Real World, Dec 31, 2010.

  1. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,088
    Likes Received:
    212
    Ratings:
    +500 / 6 / -2

    This is going to become more and more common as the years move along. In watching 60 Minutes last week, I believe they pointed out how bad the situation in Illinois is. What happens when a city, town, or state simply can't pay? What happens when there literally is no money?


    Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warning

    Published: Thursday, 23 Dec 2010 | 4:39 AM ET Text Size By: Michael Cooper and Mary Williams Walsh
    The New York Times

    This struggling small city on the outskirts of Mobile was warned for years that if it did nothing, its pension fund would run out of money by 2009. Right on schedule, its fund ran dry.

    Then Prichard did something that pension experts say they have never seen before: it stopped sending monthly pension checks to its 150 retired workers, breaking a state law requiring it to pay its promised retirement benefits in full.


    News Headlines
  2. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,883
    Likes Received:
    327
    Ratings:
    +560 / 9 / -5

    #24 Jersey

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    Dat's what happens when you don't gots a union.

    The retirees, who were not unionized, sued. The city tried to block their suit by declaring bankruptcy, but a judge denied the request. The city is appealing.
  3. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,088
    Likes Received:
    212
    Ratings:
    +500 / 6 / -2

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    When I read that line, I figured someone in here who lacked a true understanding of the problem, would focus on it. The problem with that is the underfunded pensions in places that are unionized. See Illinois, California, NY, NJ, etc.

    Union or non is irrelevent to the problem. The pension systems attached to public employees is simply unsustainable in most places. I see people in the comments tab of that article talking about how the retirees should sue the city, and how the city is obligated to pay. That's sounds good and all, but how do you pay when you have no money?

    In Illinois cops can't gas up their cars at some vendor stations with state credit cards, cuz they're refused by the attendants. Why? Cuz the state doesn't pay the bill for the gas. Say it with me now, unsustainable.
  4. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2006
    Messages:
    17,326
    Likes Received:
    43
    Ratings:
    +118 / 4 / -0

    #91 Jersey

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    It seems to me that the conservatives have a hit list of who to go after, two years ago it was ACORN. Shortly after they busted ACORN (which turned out to be a bull sh!t in its foundation) i started hearing of a new threat to American prosperity :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:... Unions.

    The unions represent a very large group of middle class usually blue collar workers. The unions choose candidates that they think best represent they're members. That means they are unlikely to endorse Republicans, who for the most part represent the corporations the union members work for i.e. the very entity the unions were formed to protect they're members from.

    Some how in some peoples minds its not right that someone who works in the public sector doesn't deserve a pension, but its OK in the private sector. If the city or state has contracts with both public employees and privet interests like banks that its OK to break the contract with the employees but not the banks. Corporate America are sacrosanct. So unless you're rich your a fool, a sucker to believe this crap about the entities that basically represent YOU are evil.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2010
  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,088
    Likes Received:
    212
    Ratings:
    +500 / 6 / -2

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni



    Say it with me now flex, unsustainable. The numbers bear that out. No one should get a full pension with 23 years service, like they do at the MBTA. Unsustainable. I've got no issue with the existence of a union, or people unionizing. The outliner that is a "union" is not the problem, just like the "corporation" isn't the problem, nor the "lobbyist". It's the specific organization, person, or structure that employs that term that determines their worth, or lack there of. What I have an issue with in the cases I point out, are the unsustainable benefits packages PEU's force taxpayers to fund. They're unsustainable. If your union has a more reasonable package with it's municipality, then terrific. If your union has one similar to the MBTA, or to NTA, or the policeman's association then that's not ok. Why? Cuz it's unsustainable.

    BTW, private employees don't have pensions anymore. The vast majority have 401k's and IRA's. I have an IRA here for my employees that they pay into, and I pay into as well. In the end, that is their money. The more they put in, the more I put in, and the more they retire with. How much they have when they retire, is independent of the other employees, and the employer. That's how it should be. We're seeing that pensions aren't fiscally sustainable long term. Not with fewer people paying into the general funds, compared to the rising number of withdrawers as the years move along. It's simply unsustainable. No one should work for the government, and get a six figure pension when they retire at 50. No one.
  6. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2006
    Messages:
    17,326
    Likes Received:
    43
    Ratings:
    +118 / 4 / -0

    #91 Jersey

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    When you buy a product from a company, (lets say a General Electric TV) a percentage goes to people that have a pension with the company, so your still paying someones pension. The reason towns and states doesn't have money is because they're not allowed in most cases to raise property taxes, or people vote no on raising taxes. I don't blame them i don't like paying taxes. The best idea i can come up with is to raise wages, they've gone down considerably in the last 30 years compared to what corporations have taken in in profits over the same time period. If this keeps up there will be two classes in this country, it will be like Mexico. You'll either be Rich or Poor.

    I know social programs, social programs eat up a lot of money. But if wages were higher there wouldn't be nearly as great a need for social programs to help people survive.

    People have to choose between paying their taxes and buy goods, you have to pay your taxes which means you can't spend as much on goods. This in turn means that corporations profits drop, the economy dips. The average income hasn't kept up with inflation and corporate profits have risen dramatically, something has to change.
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2010
  7. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,088
    Likes Received:
    212
    Ratings:
    +500 / 6 / -2

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    I'm not sure what corporations have to do with the unsustainable cost of public employee pensions.

    My property taxes have gone up every year since I've been paying them. My commercial property taxes have gone up in double digit increases in every year since 2000, except for one (2002 I think). Last year they went up 17% alone. Cities, states, and towns have plenty of money. They simply spend it poorly. Ask the people I know at the MBTA what they do all day. Give Auntie Zuchinni a call and see what her NYE plans are. Check out how many policeman in this state make over $100k a year, and how many other make $150-200k per. Professors at Umass making $200-500k per year. Illegals going to school for free. Six year city council servers recieving free medical insurance for life. The list goes on and on. There's plenty of money. It's how it's being spent that's the problem. The more the local government spends, the more it sucks in from taxpayers, and the less those working taxpayers end up having in their pockets.
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    40,130
    Likes Received:
    191
    Ratings:
    +644 / 2 / -9

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    Don't worry, things have already started to change, nothing is forever, when I started driving trucks I was 14 years old driving a Horse and Wagon peddling Ice & Oil all over the streets of Cambridge now trucks look like Hotel Rooms, soon your children will be driving Flying Cars.

    Roll With The Punches (Time And Tide Wait For No Man)
    F-ck Daylight Savings Time

    :bricks:
  9. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,515
    Likes Received:
    288
    Ratings:
    +549 / 7 / -9

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    From the actual Times article posted:

    The parts I bolded are to point out the facts in this case. They are important. I share RW's sense that you have to pay for benefits. However, talk about $100K, $150K, and $200K pensions elsewhere are irrelevent here.

    Sticking to this case, we are not talking about fat cats gaming the system. We are talking about legislating a system and refusing to pay for it.

    There are many individual factors:

    - There were no super-high-value pensions here.
    - There was a big decline in taxable population here (from 47K people to 27K people.)
    - To get to the princely sum of $12K/year, on average, the legislature raised payouts over the years without regard to budget.

    (All according to the Times article.)

    Union-bashing is only important here because pensions are so typically negotiated based on Union input. Even non-union settings that have defined benefit pensions typically are following a "blueprint" set up for all workers as part of collective bargaining with the union component of a labor force.

    If you hate pensions as a general principle, I suppose you can ascribe the "root" of this "evil" to unions -- otherwise, the 7.5% of the American workforce still in unions is not the problem here.

    We do have some data points to work from:

    1) we know there are 150 affected retirees. Not very many.
    2) We know the average pension of these workers was $12,000 per year
    3) We know the town's population is down to 27,000 people.
    4) It is worth remembering that regardless of the number of actual retirees, there is some number of deferred vested people, who are owed benefits once they retire, but who are currently still working. This is more a footnote than an actual data point, but we can't just sit here and ignore the fact that they too will be part of the equation in the future.

    The math is as follows:

    - 150 retirees x $12,000 per year = $1.8 million per year

    - $1.8 million divided by 27,000 residents = $66.66 per resident, per year

    - Assuming a larger-than-average family size (3 kids per family,) and assuming two wage-earners (the standard), we would get 40% of all residents in the labor force. Let's knock it down to 33.3% for good measure. So multiply that yearly tax bill times 3, yielding $200 per year on average to pay what is owed to public pensions. Let's say there's 33% unemployment in Pritchard - a pretty freaking high number - and add another 1/3. That would be $300, per employee, per year.

    Or, $11.54 per paycheck per worker in Pritchard, Ala.

    The Times article points to some pretty obvious trends -- white flight, middle-class flight -- that make it seem likely that Pritchard, Ala., has a pretty poor population.

    So a larger, more affluent population promised $12K to people for a long time, purloined their labor on the basis of this promise, and then left.

    The remaining residents continued to purloin this labor based on the promise, and then refused to hold up their part of the bargain.

    Using the rough math above, Pritchard, Ala., could pay what it owes by raising a $300/annum tax on workers. Usually localities use property taxes, so I don't know if the payroll tax version could even happen.

    That's a little bit important, since $11.54 per check seems like less than $300 at a specific time of the year. To solve this problem, it would be nice if Pritchard, Ala., had a biweekly payment option. (The actual number is likely more like $8 per check, given all the "on-the-safe-side" math above.)

    What Pritchard wants to do is default on its promises, its obligations. It wants to say "Oh did I say I was paying you $10 an hour for your work when you signed on? I changed my mind. I'm paying you $8 an hour, retroactively." Defined benefit pension promises are compensation - deferred compensation, but compensation nonetheless.

    Invoking terrible, if relatively rare, cases of gold-plated pensions, and use of pensions to make fat cats fatter, is a particularly misguided tactic when we are talking about people getting $12K/year on average, and $39K/year at the highest end.

    I wonder whether Pritchard, Ala., would be a high-tax or low-tax locality, measured against the national average.

    I wonder how poor Pritchard is.

    I wonder what arrangement the state has with Pritchard.

    I wonder whether Alabama is a high-tax or a low-tax state.

    What Pritchard, Ala., is doing is stealing from its workers.

    What remains to be seen is whether it's really valid to say they have no choice.

    Now on other pension matters - the state of affairs for NY, NJ, or California state pensions, for example - the data points will be different.

    Pensions are not a social program. They are pay that people have already earned.

    If you want to cry poverty and insist that you be allowed to steal from these workers once they have retired, prove your case.

    The case seems far too sketchy in this case, when $11.54 per paycheck per worker solves Pritchard, Ala.'s pension "crisis."

    PFnV
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2010
  10. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,818
    Likes Received:
    106
    Ratings:
    +225 / 8 / -13

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni






    If gov spending were lower and taxes were lower companies could pay their workers more and people who work would have as much taken by the gov, btw prices would be lower too.
  11. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,883
    Likes Received:
    327
    Ratings:
    +560 / 9 / -5

    #24 Jersey

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    It's also, in this case, money that the employee already put into the fund out of his/her own paycheck.

    Workers paid 5.5 percent of their salaries into the pension fund, and the city paid 10.5 percent
  12. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,088
    Likes Received:
    212
    Ratings:
    +500 / 6 / -2

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    Poverty? Who's crying poverty? This is about what's fiscally sustainable, and what's not. The current systems, in their current form, are the latter. They're unsustainable.

    Per resident. I love that. You sound like the guy selling cars on local TV who says "that's only $69 per week". Of course, when you count up all the weeks, and all the years of the term, you see a slightly more costly picture. A picture that some of us in the Real World like to call reality.


    So the answer is to raise taxes on the remaining people in the town. Of course, even if you raised taxes, and everyone could pay, and no one left as a result, with no cost of living increases paid to the pensioners till all the people currently collecting croak, you'd still have the problem of finding the funds to pay for the current crop of employees, and their pending pension obligations. But I digress. Pritchard in and of itself is not the point of my thread. The point is the overall issue of the unsustainable cost of local government. The system in it's current form doesn't work. That goes for Massachusetts, California, Oklahoma, Illinois, Kentucky, NJ, etc. and every city/state that spends too much. It goes for SS as well. The numbers point that out.

    BTW, the population didn't agree to pay didly. The politicians did. This is part of the problem as well. Politicians, or people operating on behalf of the "government", promise things with other people's money that can't possibly be paid out long term. To hold the populace accountable for the actions of inept government officials will only go so far. Eventually the money will literally run out, no matter how many times you've increased taxes. This is where voting for too many morons, or having too many morons voting, is leading us.
  13. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    13,078
    Likes Received:
    124
    Ratings:
    +244 / 3 / -4

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    I think public sector unions are fine, just like private sector unions are. What should change, imo, are any laws requiring employers -- private or public -- to negotiate with them.

    If people want to unionize, they have the right to do so and absolutely should have that right. But employers should have the freedom to negotiate with whomever they choose. If one of my employees tells me that they want me to speak with their attorney -- or anybody else -- about the terms of their employment, they have that right, but I should have the right to either say OK or to refuse to do so.
  14. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,515
    Likes Received:
    288
    Ratings:
    +549 / 7 / -9

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    Unsustainable is not a magical incantation, RW. It means something.

    Specifically, as regards an obligation taken on by one or another level of government, unsustainable means it is impossible to pay the debts you have.

    I cannot cry out that my credit card debts are "Unsustainable!" and go my merry way. More precisely, I can, but I would have to pay the consequences in the form of unavailability of credit (and other repercussions I won't go into here.) So I pay what I owe to people.

    I cannot hire a plumber, agree that $500 is a fine and dandy amount of money for the work he did, and then say that paying him is "unsustainable!"

    So when you say it is "unsustainable," what you are saying is you cannot afford to pay what you owe. You already owe the money.

    You are precisely "crying poverty."

    Now: If I want to eat out every night and never eat bologna sandwiches, I can say my credit card debt is "unsustainable," based on what I want to do.

    Or, if I already eat balogna sandwiches and could do freelance work on top of my regular job, I could say that my credit card debt is "unsustainable," based on the work I want to do (leaving aside the idea of whether I want to look for a better job.)

    "Unsustainable" is crying poverty to welch on the debt.

    It has also been established that by paying something on the order of $11.52 per paycheck, the good people of Pritchard, Ala., could in fact "sustain" their pension obligations -- that is to say, they could pay what they owe, as a local government.

    So again -- does Pritchard already have especially high taxes? (i.e., if they have low taxes to begin with, aren't we saying they want to eat out every night?) What else have they cut, and what else can they cut? Are cuts in fact the problem, or is a low revenue base the problem?

    Exactly how poor is Pritchard, Ala. -- does Pritchard just want to steal these workers' money, or does Pritchard have to steal these workers' money?

    I am not saying there are absolutely no conditions under which your cry of "Unsustainable" would pertain.

    I am saying it looks pretty suspect in this particular case.

    By the way: did the town of Pritchard, Ala., freeze their pension system prior to deciding to steal the money? If you freeze the pensions to new workers, and keep present workers from accruing new benefits, you can sustain payments of your obligations, which then begin to gradually ease as time goes on. The max pension that is now $39,000 per year will be earned by that guy for say 30 years (high estimate, assuming he JUST retired at 55 [early] and will die at 85 [statistically pretty old].) When he dies, nobody replaces him. Guys who have been retired 20 years will die every year, reducing the obligations of the town.

    What Pritchard, Ala., seems to have done is the opposite: They have increased their obligations over time, then welched on their obligation, enticing workers to do their all for the town, and then stealing their wages.

    So, dispensing of the magical incantation "unsustainable!" can you tell me what is the right thing to do, and what is the wrong thing to do, in this specific instance?

    Or does it, in fact, depend on the actual facts and circumstances -- i.e., whether Pritchard is absolutely incapable of raising the money they promised to pay their workforce?

    PFnV
  15. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,088
    Likes Received:
    212
    Ratings:
    +500 / 6 / -2

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    That's not how it works though. Once you go union, by choice, or by force as a long time vendor I used to use had happen to him, all your options are pretty much gone.
  16. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,088
    Likes Received:
    212
    Ratings:
    +500 / 6 / -2

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    What if I hire the plumber on your behalf for $2,500 instead of $500, and hand the bill to you? Hey, you're the one that has to pay it since the bill was created on your behalf. What do I care if you don't have the $2,500, or could have had the work done for 1/5th of my agreed to cost (on your behalf). You my friend, owe the money, and not me. All I did was negotiate the terms (on your behalf). Oh, and I got paid for doing so too. Usually with a kickback from the plumber as an added bonus.


    Sorry, but I didn't agree to pay the MBTA employees 80% of their top 3 years of pay, after 23 years service. Some moron who likely had no Real World business experience did. Still though, 20% of the sales tax we all pay here in the state goes to fund the MBTA. Sweet. :rolleyes: Unsustainable means that at some point, there simply won't be enough money, policy gimmicks, or perfume laying around to pour over the smelly pig. I don't care what someone promises you, or promises me. When there simply isn't any money left, we're not going to get paid. So like I said before, who's crying poverty? Certainly not me.
  17. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    13,078
    Likes Received:
    124
    Ratings:
    +244 / 3 / -4

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    I understand, I'm saying that's what the problem is -- not the unions themselves.
  18. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,088
    Likes Received:
    212
    Ratings:
    +500 / 6 / -2

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    The system, as currently constituted, is unsustainable. I don't care what was promised, or who made the promising. The numbers simply don't measure up long term.


    Gov. David Paterson sounds pension alarm: On his last day in office, urges focus on crisis

    By David Paterson

    Friday, December 31st 2010, 4:00 AM

    There is a new crisis on the horizon that threatens the solvency of local governments and the recovery of the U.S. economy: teetering public pension funds on the verge of insolvency, with the retirement security of millions of working Americans hanging in the balance.

    In 2011, the health of these public funds will take center stage with the very real possibility of significant write-downs in pension asset pools at a time when most funds can ill-afford it. And while these problems were not created in a single year, immediate action will be required to avoid driving our economy deeper into the ditch of recession.

    The structural problems of our public pension funds have started to emerge, and no amount of wishful thinking can replace the hard work of reforming them. We all have a stake - employers, employees, organized labor, government, regulators, lawmakers, investors and investment managers. Yet there exists no consensus, or even an informal dialogue, on how to proceed.


    Gov. David Paterson sounds pension alarm: On his last day in office, urges focus on crisis
  19. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,515
    Likes Received:
    288
    Ratings:
    +549 / 7 / -9

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    Your last couple of posts seem to indicate that you do not recognize the authority of local, state, or national government.

    If you did recognize that authority, your statement becomes the following:

    What if I assign an agent to hire the plumber on my behalf for $2,500 instead of $500? etc.

    The governmental forms I mention are, in fact, empowered constitutionally to raise taxes, and to use those taxes to secure services on your behalf. If you do not like it -- like so many residents of Pritchard -- you can move.

    If you really don't like it, you can go to some survivalist compound and see how lax the local rules are, and how much of your income will go to securing the most basic of services. Otherwise, common sense will tell you that your duly constituted local, state, and federal governments will in fact act as your agent.

    Your complaint below about the MBTA, for example, makes more sense if you believe that each individual should build his own subway system.

    The second oddity you've introduced is an unfounded argument that the workers of Pritchard, Alabama, are providing services at a five hundred percent markup.

    You have accepted your local government by continuing to live where you live. By moving to another locality, you have accepted that local government.

    So the argument that you have not accepted that your local government will indeed hire its workforce, and that you personally will not draw up each contract and manage each employee, is inherent in the very notion of a government.

    :rolleyes: Right, the majority of all government contracts are laden with kickbacks... it is far easier to find such arrangements in the private sector. I make this statement having worked in both. Have you?

    Not a valid argument.

    You cannot argue that a local government can write a contract and abrogate it because some clown on a bulletin board simply does not like its terms.

    The contract is written. The money is owed. A government functionary wrote the contract without your personal oversight. Either you voted for his boss, or you voted against his boss but more people voted for his boss.

    We do not write contracts via plebescite. I have never heard of such an arrangement, and certainly not in a city of any size. Not only is it not practiced, but I don't think it is possible.

    So again, if I hire you to do some plumbing, and we sign a contract for a $500 payment, and you sit at my home and do the work, and I go to a casino and blow $500, and then say "there simply isn't any money left," you're okay with that?

    Or would that be unjust, not to mention illegal?

    I think the latter.

    PFnV
  20. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    41,722
    Likes Received:
    175
    Ratings:
    +350 / 11 / -27

    Re: Coming soon to a city or state near you: Alabama Town’s Failed Pension Is a Warni

    Not to throw a monkey wrench into this matter, but do not forget about the "Penson Benefit Guarantee Corporation"..

    I believe that government pensions are covered by this Corp.

    Who we are (PBGC.gov)

    I have a retiree friend who worked for United and his pension is guaranteed..

    PBGC Reaches Pension Settlement with United Airlines

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>