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Columbia vs. Venezuela (& Ecuador)

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by wistahpatsfan, Mar 6, 2008.

  1. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  2. bruschimania

    bruschimania Rookie

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    You have no idea how much I'd love it if Columbia's charges stuck in international court.

    Nothing better than seeing Hugo with egg on his face... again. And hopefully behind bars.
  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Ven hasn't done anything.
    Columbia crossed the border into Ecuador. That's the issue. Ven is looking after Ecuador's back.

    Do you like Columbia's government for some reason?
  4. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    Columbia is obviously at fault but with the backing of the CIA and Bush they will most surely win. Columbia has violated International law here, not Venezuela.

    It's scary how the corporate media has convinced the American public that Chavez is the bad guy here, even after the U.S. sponsored a coup and tried to assassinate a man whose last referendum was voted down and, unlike the "dictator" people have been told he is, has acknowledged defeat.

    Quick question: how would you feel about a another country's president covertly sponsoring a coup in the United States and trying to assassinate Bush?
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  5. bruschimania

    bruschimania Rookie

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    Bad analogy. Let's say there was an Al Qaeda branch, who also happened to hold 400 people hostage, operating within the outskirts of the Northern US. If Canada moved in and attacked them, I'd be embarassed for the US because we were allowing them to operate on our land. Then, if I found out the US government had given them $300 million dollars to help fight Canada, I'd be downright ashamed.

    There's the correct analogy.

    Chavez is funding hostage-taking terrorists, and he and Correa are allowing them free passage in their countries.
  6. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    So a more correct analogy would be Reagan funding and aiding the contra rebels in El Salvador against the Sandinista government of Nicaragua?

    Or the CIA funding and backing the Mujah Hadeen in Afghanistan?

    Actually, the best analogy would be the U.S. funding and backing a Columbia government that has committed the same, if not worse, atrocities against union leaders and political dissidents in their own country?

    Got it.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  7. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    I literally cannot believe the spin you put on this issue. It is mind-boggling how blinded and compromised your mind has become regarding the most basic of human rights.

    Is FARC not an international terrorist organization which specializes in growing, processing, and selling highly dangerous drugs like cocaine?? Has FARC not engaged in the numerous murders of elected officials, judges, mayors, and even presidential candidates in Colombia?? Does FARC not engage in kidnapping of civilians for purposes of extortion and ransom??

    Any group like that deserves to be hunted down and brought to justice; and the only justice that is befitting for such heinous crimes FARC has committed is exile to the North Pole. FARC is a deadly, well-financed terrorist organization, existing for more than 30 years, hiding in the jungles of Colombia, supported by the likes of Fidel Castro and now, Hugo Chavez. Chavez should join FARC in permanent exile to upper Alaska.

    If anybody deserves to go before an international court and tried for crimes against humanity it is FARC and Hugo Chavez.


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  8. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Not behind bars. This guy is too evil for a regular prison. He is a wanna-be Castro. He thinks he is the new Fidel.

    Hugo Chavez needs to be sent to upper Alaska with the clothes on his back and a book of matches; nothing else. He is bad, bad news. His backing of FARC, a terrorist organization which murders elected officials and judges, produces and sells cocaine by the ton -- it is estimated that 70% of the world's cocaine production is done by FARC -- and routinely uses kidnapping for extortion and to influence the government of Colombia and now, probably, Ecuador.

    Bad, bad news, these people are.

    //
  9. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    For anyone that wants to actually understand the situation before claiming that Chavez supports FARC and all the other BS CNN wants you to think:

    http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/16785

    Colombia Border Trouble

    March 06, 2008 By Micheal OTuathail

    To understand the current crisis in Northern South America, it is important to recognize what most books and classes on Colombia state from the outset: the geopolitical importance of Colombia to the interests of the United States in the region. In recent years, Colombia has been recognized as one of the last and most hard-line outposts of neoliberalism in Latin America. Others may arguably include countries like Chile and Paraguay, or even Peru; but the shifts towards more progressive governments backed by popular social movements have been widely seen as a reaction to years of dictatorships and pragmatic leftist political parties that, once in power, were as pro-free market as the dictatorships that had imposed neoliberalism with an iron fist in the first place. More recently, countries like Venezuela and Bolivia have promoted people power backed by social movements that have represented at least one alternative to the inevitability of rich and poor, abundance and misery, and have broken at least a few fingers in the 'invisible hand' that, it is claimed, answers all of life's problems.

    Without getting too much into that discussion (though mentioning it because it is a part of this story), we can certainly say that, for years, Colombia has been the US' most eager ally in the region: receiving billions of dollars in 'aid' for the 'war on drugs' and the 'war on terror', and more recently, challenging (through force and the threat of force) the revolutionary processes currently underway in Venezuela. Colombia's president, Alvaro Uribe Velez, has been the staunchest US ally in the region, his discourse mimicking that of the Bush administration. But he takes it a step further. He liberally labels his political opposition 'terrorists' or 'communists in disguise', and has promoted as the only viable path to peace in Colombia the military annihilation of the FARC (the oldest and strongest armed insurgency in the continent). Talking with Colombians, one will almost always hear about Uribe's animosity for the FARC as stemming from the murder of his father at their hands, a personal vendetta. Recall George W. Bush's comments while making his long-discredited case for invading Iraq: "Saddam Hussein planned to kill a US president [his father]."

    Uribe has always maintained the stance that he would never negotiate with the FARC. Aside from denying the reality of an armed conflict in Colombia ("We don´t have a war in Colombia. We have a terrorist problem"), Uribe refuses to recognize FARC as a social and political actor. No matter how disgusting their crimes (murders of innocents, kidnappings, drugs, etc.), no matter how despised they are by most Colombians today, they remain a social and political actor. Recently, Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez did what Uribe and the US would never do: he recognized the FARC through giving them what is known in international law as 'belligerent status'. This meant that they would have to follow the norms of war (insofar as they exist... Let's assume they do) described by the Geneva Convention and so on. Chavez' reasoning was not that he supported the FARC, though much of the media is zealously reporting this, but that it was a concession he would grant to them in order for them to release some of the hostages they've held in captivity for years. There are thousands of Colombian politicians and citizens held by the FARC, an issue that mobilized thousands against the FARC this past 4 February. But it was Chavez (and Colombian Senator Piedad Córdoba), not Uribe, who made the necessary first steps in securing the unilateral release of two groups of hostages in the last two months – huge steps towards a humanitarian accord and a negotiated solution to the conflict. However outlandish his comments may be, Chavez was the 'unstatesman-like' statesman who actually acted on the wishes of the millions who marched on 4 February, not Uribe.

    But like I mentioned, Uribe is not interested in a negotiated solution. Upon the release of the first group of prisoners by the FARC, Chavez and Cordoba bargained for an area in which the prisoner release could occur. The reaction of the Colombian government was to bomb the place, nearly killing the Senator Cordoba. The Colombian journalist, Claudia López, wrote an article in El Tiempo, Colombia's national paper, not too long ago, describing the recklessness of Uribe in pursuing military rescue over negotiation. The article was aptly titled, "How many more dead, Mr. President?"
  10. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    I challenge those who think they hate Chavez in this forum to post evidence of his atrocities. In the meantime, here's a short list of tidbits about Columbian President Uribe, our terrorist friend:

    colombia has the highest murder rate of labor organizers in the world.

    these murders are often carried out by right-wing paramilitaries closely aligned with the colombian military themselves.

    what is worse is that US companies are linked to them too:

    The Coca-Cola Killings: Is Plan Colombia Funding a Bloodbath of Union Activists?
    http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0116-06.htm

    US Bending Rules on Colombia Terror?
    http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/22/2680/

    US Coal Firm Linked to Colombia Militias
    http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/07/2349/

    Chiquita Sued In NY Over Killings In Colombia
    http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/11/15/5237/

    Free Pass for Colombia’s Military
    http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0128-07.htm

    Aiding Colombia
    http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0510-08.htm
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  11. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    You respond to my post about Chavez by claiming I'm "spinning" things and then go on a rant about FARC. At what point did I say anything defending FARC? Hunted down huh? like the Union leaders Uribe has murdered? Like the scores of civilians he murdered when he indiscriminately bombed Ecuadorian territory?

    Chavez is a democratically elected president. He has committed no crimes. If you seriously think that the U.S. or any other country for that matter is in any way justified in taking out Chavez, then you literally hate democracy.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  12. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    Chavez is a ultra-left socialist, so of course the lazy ass Democrats are big fans of him and his country. Sucks being a hard worker.
  13. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Clearly Wildo you feel quite passionate about defending Hugo the commie. Being a bit older it's remarkable how much you sound like the apologist for Castro used to.
  14. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    You're entitled to that opinion. But if a country chooses to go that way and elects a President who espouses those views and programs that you disagree with, why is he then "our enemy?" Why should we try to orchestrate a coup and assassinate him? I'm still waiting for one valid reason why this action was justified. Again, can you imagine if Chavez tried to have Bush assassinated?
  15. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    No, I hate murderous, drug-running, kidnapping, extorting, duly-elected public offical assassinating, devious, lying, cheating, actions -- all the things that FARC does AND which Hugo Chavez supports and even financially backs with Venezuela's PUBLIC MONEY!!

    You have painted Hugo Chavez as the "innocent" here, and nothing could be FARTHER from the truth. Chavez is in reality the PRIME culprit in this threat to war now happening in South America. Colombia has been fighting these FARC terrorists for 30 years. FARC has more power, wealth, and military materiel than many small nations. Hugo Chavez has given both moral and financial backing to these murderous, terrorist drug-dealers. And yet, you want to paint the Colombian government as the "bad" guys??!!

    :wha:

    Not a chance, sir. Not a chance.


    //
  16. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    Except, Chavez was elected democratically, and hasn't committed any human rights violations. He hasn't silenced the opposition media that still dominates the country, and he conceded the loss when his last referendum was voted down. So comparing him to Castro and calling him a Communist just simply isn't valid.
  17. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    Chavez and Correa do not support FARC. He hasn't given money to them. That is just flat out false. And Columbia is guilty of all of the atrocities you've listed there.
  18. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    By Hugo Chavez's support of FARC he is, indeed, an international war criminal. By Chavez giving moral AND financial backing to the international terrorist drug-dealing gang of FARC, Hugo Chavez has made himself an international terrorist. He should be arrested and brought to trial in an independent international court, just the way the war criminals, Soloban Milosivic of Serbia and Saddam Hussein, were.


    //
  19. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    Again, he hasn't "supported FARC," but don't let the facts get in the way of your propaganda campaign:

    so giving them "belligerent status" and negotiating for the release of hostages means he supports FARC? More nonsense from the propaganda campaign.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  20. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    What are you lying about now??? It is already established here that Chavez has supported FARC both morally and financially. Why does Chavez send Venezuelan troops to the border of Colombia if he does not support FARC??? Colombia attacked FARC leaders in Ecuador, not Venezuela.

    Hugo Chavez is a proto-communist, just as Castro was when he took over Cuba in 1959. Only later did his true colors come out. Chavez is exactly the same. He is bad, bad news to the world.


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  21. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    I honestly don't care what happens down there. South America is a 3rd world. None of the leaders on either side are a prize. Saw this though this morning.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_farc_laptop


    I have no issues with Colombia going into Ecuador to raid a terrorist camp. If Ecuador isn't going to do sh!t about it, and Colombians are suffering, then Uribe has the right to protect his people. That doesn't mean Uribe is some saint, but his obligation is to his people. Chavez clearly is up to no good when it comes to FARC. He should stay out of it if his intentions aren't in the best interest of Colombia. FARC is a terrorist organization.
  22. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    Please provide a link or proof of this financial and moral support of FARC by Chavez. Columbia illegally violated Ecuador's sovereignty by bombing in their country and killing Ecuadorian citizens (including assassinating Reyes). Please provide one shred of proof that Chavez is a "proto-communist" or that he has undermined the democratic process in Venezuela in any way. Again, just because you make this stuff up doesn't make it true.

    In the mean time, here are a few interesting tid bits about your favorite country, Columbia:

    colombia has the highest murder rate of labor organizers in the world.

    these murders are often carried out by right-wing paramilitaries closely aligned with the colombian military themselves.

    what is worse is that US companies are linked to them too:

    The Coca-Cola Killings: Is Plan Colombia Funding a Bloodbath of Union Activists?
    http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0116-06.htm

    US Bending Rules on Colombia Terror?
    http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/22/2680/

    US Coal Firm Linked to Colombia Militias
    http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/07/2349/

    Chiquita Sued In NY Over Killings In Colombia
    http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/11/15/5237/

    Free Pass for Colombia’s Military
    http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0128-07.htm

    Aiding Colombia
    http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0510-08.htm
  23. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah Chave is just the salt of the Earth, the nicest communist of all time, if only every leader could be as great as hugo and his 'progressive' government..../s
  24. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    from that article:

    I'm sure the Columbian government is a very reliable source on this issue. And if true, how is this different from Uribe's support of right wing paramilitary terrorist groups?
  25. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    he's not a communist.
  26. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    .


    Google Hugo Chavez FARC:

    Hugo Chavez: Castro's Mini-Me. by Peter Brookes ... Chavez is rumored to be supporting the FARC, letting it use the Colombian-Venezuelan border area to ...
    www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed040505a.cfm - 27k

    Guerrilla Nation
    The prominent FARC leader Olga Marin, for example, spoke on the floor of Venezuela's National Assembly in the summer of 2000, praising Hugo Chavez as a hero ...
    www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/177yckaw.asp
    Comandante Chavez's Friends

    Hugo Chavez supports Saddam Hussein and terrorism. ... he unequivocally stated that the Chavez government will not refer to the FARC Colombian terrorists as ...
    www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/346jorji.asp
    Can Chávez free FARC hostages? | csmonitor.com

    6 Sep 2007 ... Venezuela's leftist leader Hugo Chávez met with pro-US Colombian president Álvaro ... the FARC has agreed to meet with Chávez in Caracas, ...
    www.csmonitor.com/2007/0906/p01s01-woam.html - 72k -

    Hugo Chavez and the FARC boost Uribe's popularity | www.vcrisis.com
    e-zine offering news, analysis and information from venezuela regarding hugo chavez, political crisis, human rights violations, terrorism, ...
    www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200801241754

    chavez calls bush the devil
    A few days before the bombing, the government of Colombia had complained that Hugo Chavez was supporting the Marxist FARC terrorists and their revolution in ...
    www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2144

    Colombia: FARC Vows To Protect Hugo Chavez
    FARC Vows To Protect Hugo Chavez. February 28, 2006: FARC has announced that it would go to the aid of Venezuela if the United States attacked Venezuela. ...
    www.strategypage.com/qnd/colombi/articles/20060228.aspx

    BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Chavez in Farc raid 'war' warning
    Hugo Chavez warns Colombia a strike against Farc rebels inside Venezuela like that in Ecuador could start a war.
    news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7273413.stm - 51k -

    GOP Vixen: Hugo Chavez's FARC farce
    Hugo's FARC farce has got it all. I write about it today for Pajamas Media:. "Autocrat, totalitarian, Bolivarian reactionary. Now Hugo Chavez aims to add ...
    gopvixen.blogs.com/gop_vixen/2007/12/hugo-chavezs-fa.html

    Hot Air » Blog Archive » Is Chavez admitting an alliance with FARC?
    The juxtaposition of events in Colombia and Venezuela give a compelling indication that Hugo Chavez has allied himself with FARC, the terrorist rebels just ...
    hotair.com/archives/2008/03/02/is-chavez-admitting-an-alliance-with-farc/


    I suppose your next retort will be that Google is "a tool of the CIA"??


    //
  27. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    Colombia: The Real Destabilizing Force in South America

    by Carlos Martinez
    In surveying US press coverage of the recent tensions between Colombia, Ecuador, and Venezuela, one might come to the conclusion that Colombia has become the victim of the wrath of its evil next door neighbor, Hugo Chavez. Once again, the media spin machine has been turned against Venezuela, bypassing a contextual analysis of the situation for a simplistic story line. With headlines such as, “Chavez Picks a New Fight” (Business Week March 4, 2008) the story perpetuates the US government’s claims that Venezuela is a destabilizing force in the region while ignoring the alarming actions perpetrated by the Colombian government.

    While Chavez has certainly made it easy for international attention to be focused on his actions, the lack of coverage on the response of other South American presidents is disconcerting. The most egregious example of this blind spot is with Ecuador itself, the country whose territory was trespassed in Colombia’s attacks. The protests raised by Ecuadoran President Rafael Correa have been sorely underreported in comparison to Chavez’s response, potentially leaving one with the impression that Ecuador does not consider Colombia’s actions to be of major concern.

    Nor is it being acknowledged that this is not the first time Ecuador has suffered the negative consequences of Colombia’s war on “narco-terrorism” as articulated through Plan Colombia. For years the northern region of Ecuador has been subject to tremendous contamination of legal crops, animals, and whole communities as a result of aerial herbicide spraying of coca crops in Colombia.

    A statement published by White House spokesperson Gordon Johndroe maintains that Venezuela is simply overreacting to a legitimate operation. “This is an odd reaction by Venezuela to Colombia’s efforts against the FARC, a terrorist organization that continues to hold Colombians, Americans and others hostage.”

    A quick review of responses from other countries would in fact show that the US government’s assessment is deeply flawed and out of step with international opinion. President of Chile, Michelle Bachelet, proclaimed, “A situation of this nature undoubtedly warrants an explanation from Colombia to the people of Ecuador, the President of Ecuador and the rest of the region.” The governments of Paraguay, Peru, and Argentina have all released similar statements of disapproval with Colombia’s actions.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  28. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    .

    Wildo, you are again violating yet another rule of this forum: it is illegal, by copyright law, to use more than 5 paragraphs of copyrighted material.

    For the sake of this forum's legal protection, I think your excessive post needs to be removed permanently.


    //
  29. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    fixed. Sorry I was unaware of that rule.
  30. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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