Colts fans...back to earth now, time to pay your players

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Polian was on Mike & Mike (espn radio) yesterday morning and he said Freeney is going no where. The team is going to start talking to him this week and will franchise him if need be. Frankly I've always been in the camp that he's vastly over-rated so I'm very happy to hear this. Everybody talks about the Jets or some other team offering up a poison pill contract to Samuel well here's hoping the Titans or some other team in that division do that with Freeney and that Pollian falls in love with a player that finally helped get him over the top or that they eat the franchise tag.

I'm with you hoping they break the bank on freeney. i don't think i'd call him vastly overrated, just simply overrated. then again I put asante in that camp too.

also, the poison pill doesn't apply to franchised players. if you sign a franchised guy you forfeit two first round picks. the poison pill comes into play with players where the team has the right to match the offer.

 

[BradyManny]

How can the Colts pay their players??
1.) Convert PM's 10 million roster bonus into a signing bonus thereby saving $8.33 million on the cap. Cap savings - $8.33 million.
2.) Extend Tarik Glenn's contract by a year. Let's say that he ends up with a $2.5 million salary and a $2 million signing bonus. Savings - $1 million.
3.) Get Stokely to agree to lower his new money take from $2.6 million to $1.2 million with the opportunity to earn back the money with incentives.
Savings - $1.4 million. If he does not agree to the deal, release him for about the same amount of cap savings.
4.) Convert $2.5 million of Booger McFarland's $5.5 million salary into a signing bonus - Savings - $1.25 million.
5.) I have no clue what the Colts are going to do with Corey Simon but they could save $3.955 million on the cap by releasing him on 6/2. That 3.955 million is pretty close to what the Colts would need to sign their draft picks, pay for players 52,53 and have about $1.25 million in reserve.
6.) Convert $2 million of Robert Mathis' $3.9 million roster bonus into a signing bonus - Savings - $1.6 million.

Five simple moves that takes the Colts from $2.5 million under the cap to about $16 million under. There are other moves available to the Colts.

So the Colts can free up about $14 mill. How much could the Pats free up this offseason (if they choose to) using similar tactics?

 

[everlong]

also, the poison pill doesn't apply to franchised players. if you sign a franchised guy you forfeit two first round picks. the poison pill comes into play with players where the team has the right to match the offer.

I know. I didn't explain what I meant very well. Once he's franchised I hope somebody like the Titans just fills his head with an inflated number so that the Colts are either forced to over pay him in a multi year contract or bite the bullet and actaully pay him the franchise for the year.

He can start talking to other teams and I'm sure his agent will to get all the leverage he can.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

We have already heard that Grossman got $500,000 from the Bears for getting to the Super Bowl. I would think that if Manning had a Super Bowl incentive we would have heard about it.

If you wish to believe that the reason that the Colts went from 4 million to 2.5 million from 1/3 to 2/4, go ahead. I believe that it is because they signed players to future contracts.


Please explain why.



What odds will you give me that there will not be an uncapped year??


A small market team that just won the Super Bowl. Fans tend to buy Super Bowl apparel.



Bingo. Cap space is just one tool in building a Super Bowl team. Good coaching is one. Do the Colts have it?? Yes. Good talent is another. Do the Colts have it?? Good drafting acumen. Do the Colts have it??Yes. The ability to win close games and to perform well in the 2nd half of games. Do the Colts have it?? Yes. Do the Colts have a lot of cap space?? No. But some people like to focus on what they do not have as opposed to what they do have. It does not matter how much space you have. It matters more on you acquire with it. Talent makes plays, not cap space. Would all those who complain that the Pats are cheap be happier if the Pats have given Gabriel and Sullivan $2.5 million roster bonuses??I think not.

Not necessarily. I think we heard about Rex's windfall because of the irony that his abyssmal play is probably the single biggest reason Chicago lost.

We haven't heard of signings either so all we know is the Colts lost a couple of million between Miami and Indy.

All the poison pills that make constructing a contract a nightmare will kick in again if the new CBA is scrapped.

I guess you are saying Polian is a gambler. Belioli isn't.

I believe the lions share of SB merchandise and apparel sales accrues to the league. Kraft was set up to take advantage of the things he could produce and sell exclusively via a dedicated Pro Shop like the 3GTG media and 21. Still, those are but a drop in the bucket. You saw how many (or few) Colts fans were in Miami.

I remember 2002. Dammed if you keep 'em, dammed if you don't. That first defense of title season is a beast for a lot of reasons. Players who overachieved to get a ring sometimes tend to want to bask in the glow, even subconsciously, and it can be very difficult to re-hone that edge in what tends to become a very short off season. All replacement talent is going to be at a premium this season with 20+ teams feeling pretty flush. And it's likely Dungy's swan song season, and those players will know that.

Polian's way finally netted them 1 in 6. Belioli are sitting on 3 in 6. And I do believe the flu and the matchups, created in large part because of our early struggles to adjust to like without Branch, had more to do with Polian's success this season than his own approach to team building did. They didn't even really play Polianesque football, Dungy took a page or two out of the Belichick manuel in a copycat league and played disciplined gap control defense behind an offense coached to start taking what the opposition gives you. And I think in the final analysis that approach on Dungy's part was what carried day in the post season for Indy.

 

[everlong]

Dungy took a page or two out of the Belichick manuel in a copycat league and played disciplined gap control defense behind an offense coached to start taking what the opposition gives you. And I think in the final analysis that approach on Dungy's part was what carried day in the post season for Indy.

I give full kudos to Dungy for them winning. He finally gets it.

 

[Ring 6]

Polian was on Mike & Mike (espn radio) yesterday morning and he said Freeney is going no where. The team is going to start talking to him this week and will franchise him if need be. Frankly I've always been in the camp that he's vastly over-rated so I'm very happy to hear this. Everybody talks about the Jets or some other team offering up a poison pill contract to Samuel well here's hoping the Titans or some other team in that division do that with Freeney and that Pollian falls in love with a player that finally helped get him over the top or that they eat the franchise tag.

The Colts of 2006 were not as good as the Colts of 2005 or 2004, it's just that the Patriots of 2006 weren't as good as the Patriots of 2004 or 2003. Both teams are going to have to reload and the Patriots have more draft choices and more salary cap to do so. I'm not saying the Colts are going to fall off the map as some would contend but I think everybody has to admit they are in a tough spot to maneuver.

If they don't re-tool teams like SD, Cincy and others are going to eventually figure out how to win with their talent.

My opinion on the Colts is they won the SB because they changed. The talent level was reallynot very different from 03-06 on the Colts.
I felt all along that there PHILOSOPHY was a big part of preventing them from winning championships, that philosophy being to ignore run defense and only worry about the pass rush, and on offense to live or die throwing the ball. While they didnt run a whole lot more this year vs other years, there was a HUGE adjustment, especially in the playoffs, of relying on the run, using it as a gameplan rather than a distraction to support the passing game only. Additionally the idea that most passes must go the WRs was altered.

Throughout the playoffs, the Colts learned the value of playing the run. Most analysts were talking about how teams abandoned the run, but the Colts forced them to abandon it by selling out to stop the run. The Colts learned that they stand a better chance stopping a drive of 10 6 yard passes, than stopping a drive where they are only worried about sacks and getting run over.
Offensively, for the first time in my memory, the Colts appeared to act as if they thought running the ball could win a game.

What does this mean for the future of the Colts? Hard to say. They have built their team around a different philosophy than I saw them win the SB with. That doesn't bode well for continuing what they did, however, if they learned from it, and make personell adjustments to account for that, they ultimately are a better team than they were, because the plan is a better one.

The Colts aren't going away any time soon. I would not be at all surprised if they have a bad season (maybe next year even) because of injuries, complacency after winning, etc, as many teams do, but I don't think it in 2010 we will be looking back on the Colts 4 years after the SB and see what we've seen from Tampa and the Raiders. I also dont think we will look back in 4 years and see what we saw from the 2001 Pats either.

My best guess comparison of the Colts right now would be maybe Favres mid 90s Packers. They got close,then finally won. They got back, and they contender for a while after that. Whether the Colts get back, how many times or win one again is unpredictable, but I think they will be in contention for most of the next 5-6 years.

 

[Miguel]

So the Colts can free up about $14 mill. How much could the Pats free up this offseason (if they choose to) using similar tactics?

How much can the Pats can free up is going to affect the Colts how??They go after different players when it comes to defenses.

 

[everlong]

My opinion on the Colts is they won the SB because they changed. The talent level was reallynot very different from 03-06 on the Colts.

I agree with you, they won because they changed. They played physical football on both sides of the ball but I still feel they had less talent.

 

[Miguel]

I guess you are saying Polian is a gambler. Belioli isn't.[/ quote]

No, I am saying that I wished that I had bet this board that the Colts would win a Super Bowl despite Manning's contract. I would have cleaned up. And I would have given odds.

 

[BradyManny]

How much can the Pats can free up is going to affect the Colts how??They go after different players when it comes to defenses.

That's not my Q - I was simply asking if the Pats salary is built in such a way as we can free up even more space this offseason, ie restructuring Dillon/Colvin, etc.

 

[Miguel]

We haven't heard of signings either so all we know is the Colts lost a couple of million between Miami and Indy.

Well, according to the NFLPA site the Colts have 55 players signed for the 2007 season. Some of them are not annouced. Every January teams sign players to future contracts.

Dorsey, De De RB 360,000
Federkeil, Daniel OL 360,000
LaCasse, Ryan LB 360,000
Marsh, Antwan S 360,000
Roberts, Corey TE 360,000
Rushing, T.J. CB 360,000
Standeford, John WR 360,000
Goddard, Johnathan DE 310,000
Johnson, Mike OL 310,000
Charleston, Jeff DE 285,000
Hoyte, Brandon LB 285,000
Johnson, Tom DT 285,000
Keith, Kenton RB 285,000
McGann, Mike QB 285,000
Coley, Trevis S 285,000
Hare, Brian WR 285,000
McMahan, Kevin WR 285,000
Ware, Scott S 285,000

How many of the above were on the Colts' 53-man roster in the Super Bowl or on IR?Not too many. So when were the rest of them signed??

 

[Miguel]

That's not my Q - I was simply asking if the Pats salary is built in such a way as we can free up even more space this offseason, ie restructuring Dillon/Colvin, etc.

Every team is built in a way that they can free up more space by restructuring. The Pats have redone deals each and every year since Pioli and BB arrived.

 

[Miguel]

Not necessarily. I think we heard about Rex's windfall because of the irony that his abyssmal play is probably the single biggest reason Chicago lost..

Manning signed his contract in March, 2004. Are you telling me that if he had a Super Bowl incentive that it would not have been reported already?? I doubt it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

My opinion on the Colts is they won the SB because they changed. The talent level was reallynot very different from 03-06 on the Colts.
I felt all along that there PHILOSOPHY was a big part of preventing them from winning championships, that philosophy being to ignore run defense and only worry about the pass rush, and on offense to live or die throwing the ball. While they didnt run a whole lot more this year vs other years, there was a HUGE adjustment, especially in the playoffs, of relying on the run, using it as a gameplan rather than a distraction to support the passing game only. Additionally the idea that most passes must go the WRs was altered.

Throughout the playoffs, the Colts learned the value of playing the run. Most analysts were talking about how teams abandoned the run, but the Colts forced them to abandon it by selling out to stop the run. The Colts learned that they stand a better chance stopping a drive of 10 6 yard passes, than stopping a drive where they are only worried about sacks and getting run over.
Offensively, for the first time in my memory, the Colts appeared to act as if they thought running the ball could win a game.

What does this mean for the future of the Colts? Hard to say. They have built their team around a different philosophy than I saw them win the SB with. That doesn't bode well for continuing what they did, however, if they learned from it, and make personell adjustments to account for that, they ultimately are a better team than they were, because the plan is a better one.

The Colts aren't going away any time soon. I would not be at all surprised if they have a bad season (maybe next year even) because of injuries, complacency after winning, etc, as many teams do, but I don't think it in 2010 we will be looking back on the Colts 4 years after the SB and see what we've seen from Tampa and the Raiders. I also dont think we will look back in 4 years and see what we saw from the 2001 Pats either.

My best guess comparison of the Colts right now would be maybe Favres mid 90s Packers. They got close,then finally won. They got back, and they contender for a while after that. Whether the Colts get back, how many times or win one again is unpredictable, but I think they will be in contention for most of the next 5-6 years.

I agree, but I think the wildcard will be Dungy retiring - which I firmly believe he will do in 2008 - and how they manage that transition and to whom they turn next. Moore may hang on on offense, but he's no spring chicken nor is he a charasmatic leader like Tony. Belioli, and BB in particular, is the little engine that drives the train here working with a small but committed core who gets it. Don't know that they have that in Indy. I think Manning understands that and that is why his response to winning this year was almost muted. He knows his teammates and his coaches and ownership and management, and he knows the effort that will be required to maintain an edge with the monkey off all of their backs will likely surpass the one it took to dislodge it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Well, according to the NFLPA site the Colts have 55 players signed for the 2007 season. Some of them are not annouced. Every January teams sign players to future contracts.

How many of the above were on the Colts' 53-man roster in the Super Bowl or on IR?Not too many. So when were the rest of them signed??

And they will have to sign another 20-25 before TC opens and likely a few more thereafter because we both know how many players it takes to end with a functional 53 man roster plus PS.

At the end of the day the Pats and 20 or so other teams have a lot more flexibility heading into 2007 than the Colts and about 10 other teams do. It remains to be seen what each can do with that in the presence of the others. The Pats may make their position moot because of an entrenched value mentality, though other teams are less likely to, or they may surprise us all.

We have 2 first round draft choices. The Colts don't even have a second rounder this year. The Colts have several RFA's including starters in addition to a couple of starting UFA's (one of whom will either have to be franchised if he will even play under a tag or signed to one of the highest contracts for a DL in NFL history - since in his own words he wants to be the highest paid player in the game...)

Then there is the little as yet fully unknown matter of the cash over cap penalty that could eat up more then Polian likely banked in leftover 2006 cap. The Colts are rumored to be one of the teams that will be paying the piper rather than sharing in any additional revenue support.

You have admiration for and apparently faith in the master manipulator and the motivator (and old laser rocket arm ). Mine rests in Belioli and the system Indy tapped in on this post season and the system QB who operates it by nature rather than grudgingly of necessity. I guess we will just have to wait to see what we will see.

BTW - you seem to be prorating Mannings bonus a little farther than I believed his contract extended. I've always heard the last two years of that 2004 deal (that would have pushed the total value to over $120M+) were voided once he made minimum performance requirements in the first season, and it is a 7 year $98M deal that expires in 2010. Do you know that it wasn't?

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

The Colts have a history of this. They do not pay LB's. Why would they give June big money now when they wouldn't with the better players I listed above?

Harper is a good player but if he has to go, so be it. Marlin Jackson can fill the role.

Ryan, first off, congrats on a great season.

However, I totally disagree with you about Harper. His YPA was under 6, which puts him in the shutdown corner category. In fact, one of the biggest reasons your team won was that the Colts passing D was the best in the postseason. Sanders was healthy, David (a RFA who will be tendered at the 2nd round level, imo) improved a full yard on his YPA from 2005, Marlin Jackson, who I had hoped would land to the Pats in the '05 draft, looks like Free Safety is his natural position.

If you lose Harper, you're team will be in trouble. Freeney struggles against the run and had most of his sacks vs weak O-lines. Agreed about June. He's overrated and can be easily replaced in Dungy's speed-oriented attack defense. Rhodes had a great season, but can also be easily replaced. This is a strong draft for 4-3 DEs so it's possible to find a replacement for Freeney. This is a weak class for CBs and replacing Harper will be a monumental task. The Pats are in the same boat with Samuel, but at least we have more cap space to work with.

If I'm Polian, I'd try to re-sign Harper ASAP and tag and trade Freeney. Then I'd draft a DE in rounds 1 or 2. If the first fails, tag Harper.

JMHO

 

[Miguel]

BTW - you seem to be prorating Mannings bonus a little farther than I believed his contract extended. I've always heard the last two years of that 2004 deal (that would have pushed the total value to over $120M+) were voided once he made minimum performance requirements in the first season, and it is a 7 year $98M deal that expires in 2010. Do you know that it wasn't?

I looked on the NFLPA.org site. According to that Peyton is signed through the 2012 season. I trust the NFLPA.org site more than I do media reports.

 

[Miguel]

You have admiration for and apparently faith in the master manipulator and the motivator (and old laser rocket arm ). Mine rests in Belioli and the system Indy tapped in on this post season and the system QB who operates it by nature rather than grudgingly of necessity. I guess we will just have to wait to see what we will see.

Actually, I have faith in my track record. I have always thought that other teams have been capable of winning a Super Bowl. Just because I think that other teams are capable of winning a Super Bowl does not mean that I think that the Patriots are incapable of winning a Super Bowl.

 

[FilPats]

http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/MIN/9983775

According to this item, the Colts Asst.Coach Frazier just signed with theVikes.
Go Pats:rocker:

 

[Kdo5]

http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/MIN/9983775

According to this item, the Colts Asst.Coach Frazier just signed with theVikes.
Go Pats:rocker:

Good, Dungy will be nothing without his coordinators.