Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by BelichickFan, Mar 23, 2006.
Good stuff here :
That beefcake photo of Adam is one of the most putrid things I've seen in a while. Man does think rather highly of himself, no?
Yeah, I could have done without that
I tend to agree how emotions get into things..I would have liked him to stay..but??? He didn't wish to...so let us all move on!!!
....so when Brady does a similar photo spread it's NOT putrid?
Adam is a good looking guy.
Well, allright then. And, no, I don't want to see Tommy with his shirt off either.
No, its most definitely putrid when TB does it. Seen the barnyard pictoral?
Price you pay for winning Super Bowls.
On the article: my prediction is that its just going to make too much goddam sense for a few of us. I'm sure we'll soon have a thread devoted to refuting this piece.
Thanks for the link. Some parts I liked:
A right guard who makes $1.5 million per year might participate in 900 or 1,000 snaps over the course of the season. A kicker participates in 60 or 70. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s unreasonable to pay twice as much for a 60-play-a-year man than you would for a 1,000-play-a-year man Ã¢â‚¬â€œ no matter how many great, emotional memories you may have of that 60-play-a-year guy.
Yes, we realize that kickers play a uniquely pivotal role in the course of a game Ã¢â‚¬â€œ often marching onto the field at key moments to provide the last-second margin of victory or defeat. These dramatic moments make all the highlight shows. These moments also help fuel our arch-enemy, emotion.
The truth is that these few emotion-filled moments are no more important than the mundane contributions of the right guard who has 1,000 opportunities over the course of the season to affect the outcome of a play.
I've said this in other threads, and I'll say it one last time. Vinatieri was clutch in some big games for us in the past, but he is 33, and last year he was only 4 for 8 in 40+ field goals. Belichick didn't have faith in Vinatieri's range last year, which is why the Pats went for it on 4th down so many times at around the 30 yard line.
So far everything I have been reading has been critical of the Pats and very sympathetic to Adam.
Finally, we get to hear the other side!
This part below pretty much somes up how I felt about it.
Hurrumpft to that! Agreed!
OK, you asked for it:
OK, maybe you didn't...
Hes just getting old, his back is bothering him, and outdoor weather isn't what he wants to kick in. Its Vanderjact all over again except with a former Patriots PR(public relations) trainee.
What isn't addressed in that article is how many points an OL, DL, LB, S, or CB account for in a given game.
It's not all about how many snaps one can be in. That stat is kinda weak.
Disregarding PATs...a PK will account for 25-40 of the most important snaps of a team's season. I care about an OL's 60-80 snaps during a game, but I care more about the ones that can put 3 on the scoreboard.
The author is grasping at straws to belittle the kicker position just like Skip Bayless. Face it, he's an important player. It's time to move on, but not come up with dumb stats on why AV or any kicker doesn't really matter as much as we think.
Love Adam yet I knew he would leave one day just like Tom will leave one day. It's the cold hard side of the NFL. Sure Adam did great things for us and I would like it if he could of finished his career in N.E. But it has happened to greater players than Adam. Example:
He won 4 SBs
He was SB MVP 3 times
His SB passer rating is a record 127.8
Most SB passes completed 83
Most consecutive SB passes completed in a row 13
2nd highest SB completion 68%
Most SB TD passes 11
Lowest SB int % @ 0% - 122 attempts 0 ints
Most SB total passing yds 1,142
NFL Hall of Fame
and the 49ers said, "Hit the road Jack!"
"Vios con dios Adam"
Why is it a dumb stat? If a Great PK accounts for a certain amount of points vs. an Average PK, there's a pretty easy way to determine value at the position.
Remember: There's a BIG reason why we all laughed at the Jets for drafting Nugent so high last year and it had nothing to do with how good he might eventually become. Think about that for a second: If kicker is such a critical position in football, why don't teams scramble to draft them in the early rounds? Why are so many kickers walk-off-the-street free agents? Why is there only ONE kicker in the Hall of Fame?
Collusion. I thought that was assumed.
That's why, rarely, do teams draft high (or draft at all) or pay a lot for them. The teams don't want the kicker market to get out of control. Moreso with kickers, it's how much can you lowball them by. And it's become the standard. So it's shocking when people draft high for Janikowski or Nugent, or dole out a 3.5 SB for AV.
Why is there only ONE (true kicker)?
A lot played other positions prior to specialization. Less exposure to the the voters, many of whom are media members.
Lastly, the media...why has there only been one defensive player (who had to play both ways) to win the Heisman? It's all about the glory positions...QB, HB, WR, pass rushing DEs. Look at last years HOF class: Marino (QB), Young (QB), Friedman (QB), Pollard (RB/Coach).
Not a lot of facts from a purported "facts" website.
"being an extremely well-paid kicker on a rare NFL dynasty wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t good enough for Vinatieri. He wanted to be the highest-paid kicker in football."
Sounds more like a vindictive essay. It is all speculation as to AV's motive, nothing more, coupled with a jab at him. Weak article IMO.
Someone please tell CHFF that
1.) it is far more likely that the cap hits for Manning, Harrison, Wayne, and Adam will total up be $26.5 million than $30 million.
2.) that the cap hits for Brady, Seymour, Colvin, and Dillon add up to $30 million.
Paraphrasing the site - "Therefore, the Patriots must be determined to destroy their roster. After all, the Patriots have now tied up more than 30 percent of their salary cap in just four players: a quarterback, a defensive lineman, a outside lineback and a running back. Given the fact that each dollar that goes into the pocket of a big-name player comes out of the pocket of a lesser-known player, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s clear that Patriots management has done serious damage to its team. Four Patriots will gorge themselves on more than $30 million this year. Forty-nine players are then left to divide about $70 million in salary-cap scraps."
Please note that I do not believe the above paragraph. Just wanted to demonstrate the idiocy of it.
3.) the cap is $102 million,not $104 million.
4.) the Patriots' adjusted cap is a little less than around 100 million.
5.) the Colts's adjusted cap number is $102,250,000. Therefore, the Colts have 2,250,000 more to spend on their players than do the Pats.
Wow. Just, wow. I'm really hoping my sarcasm meter is out of whack: I can't believe that you really think there's a secret handshake agreement among NFL owners to keep kicker's salaries down? Are you serious????
Which is more likely: (a) The NFL has colluded in a giant anti-kicker conspiracy to keep salaries down OR (b) nearly every NFL team believes that the difference between a great kicker and an average one isn't nearly large enough to offset paying so much for that single position that it might shortchange them at nearly any other position on the field?
I eagerly await your response.
Putting aside the accuracy of the numbers for a second, Miguel: Would you agree that having ONE-QUARTER of your salary cap space tied up in 4 guys ON THE SAME SIDE OF THE BALL (two of which play the same position) is somewhat shortsighted? I think most of us can agree that running the ball and stopping the run are two of the most critical parts of the game. The Colts haven't addressed either point with approximately 1/4 of their available cap space for 4 players. That, to me, is cap mismanagement.
Conditionally, I pick (a).
I don't believe there was literally a handshake agreement between owners. I don't know how or when it was done, but kickers and punters are slotted in a certain salary demographic. And I'm pretty sure owners and coaches would like to keep it that way.
Back to the initial point, I still think it doesn't make sense that the guy who wrote the column so easily dismisses AV and kickers in general. Let's compare it to baseball. Closers make nearly the same as starters and they pitch anywhere from 25%-33% of what starters do. According to Mooch and Cold Hard Football facts, this is absolutely crazy!!!
But why do the Red Sox pay Foulke 7M/year? The Mets pay Wagner whatever he's making (10?)...the Yanks the millions and millions to Rivera?
Because the guy who has the opportunity to end the game and who has proven to hold up the pressure in the past should be compensated well.
Likewise, anytime you have a kicker who has proven he can perform in a "Save" situation, you should try and keep him even if he only is on the field in 66/2100 snaps.
You spent a lot of time typing something that can be answered with one sentence:
THERE'S NO SALARY CAP IN BASEBALL.
You're talking apples and widgets when it comes to player salaries per position in football versus baseball. The Yankees can afford to pay their lefty specialist out of the bullpen $5 million per year if they want to. Because it won't take away from any other positions.
However, you're STILL making my point for me, if you want to talk baseball: Guys like Rivera and Wagner can be measured against starting pitchers in many ways -- VORP (value over replacement player) for example. In the end, you're talking about pitchers versus other pitchers. And the elite relievers measure up against all but the elite starting pitchers in baseball metrics -- So that's exactly the way they are paid.
Kickers don't just kick at the end of games. Another way your analogy doesn't work at all.
While one can look at it this way, as I've posted in another thread, I think AV stands a greater chance of having a Morten Anderson-type career by going to Indy than if he'd stayed here.
Having to kick off and kick PATs and FGs in Gillette 8 or 10 games a year is a far cry from the RCA Dome where they may not even require him to kick off at all.
Whatever he might have made in endorsements post-football say, at 36, is easily eclipsed by what he could make as a point-kicking machine until he's 40, IMO.
Let's just that I find it funny that a site that has facts in its name is practically admitting to making up the number??
Not when all 4 player are among the best in the league at their position. Not when the Colts still have 75% of the cap left.
I also agree.
The Colts still have 75 million of cap space left and 6 months. IMO, it is far too soon to judge how a team manages the 2006 cap when there are 6 months left before the regular season starts.
Just because there's no salary cap, doesn't mean a team has no limits to what they will spend (NYY is the clear exception). So it's all relative to what the team's "cap" is. For instance, even the Red Sox have self-capped themselves at 110-120M. If the Red Sox spend 7/yr for Foulke and 8/yr for a starter (Clement)...they are saying a closer is as valuble as a guy who pitches 200 inn, compared to a guy who throws 40-60.
Also, my analogy is being taken too literal. You obviously realize the similarities between a kicker having to come through at the end of a game and a RP doing the same.
If football had it's own sabremetric system, I'm sure Vinatieri's VORP would be worthy of a 2.5M/yr contract, don't you think?
"I eagerly await your response."
I don't think that AV's "VORP-equivalent stats" are worth anything close to $2.5 million per year. He was 19th among kickers in points scored last year. He was 17th in terms of FG%.
And take a look at the following from Football Outsiders.com:
Says it all to me.
Of course, what you don't mention is that the 49ers had another future HOFer waiting for his chance to start (Steve Young). We'll see who lines up for the next FG and/or kickoff for the Pats.
Separate names with a comma.