Coaching exodus continues: TE coach Mangurian leaving

[upstater1]

I don't mean to belabor the point but I'd like to refer to an article
by Nick Cafardo in the Boston Globe on May 16, 2004. At the
time Romeo Crennel was making a salary well short of 1 million
dollars. Charlie Weis was making only $500,000. According to
Weis's agent, the average salary for an offensive coordinator was
one million dollars. Had Weis not been hired by Notre Dame, he
was going to be a coordinator for another team in 2005.

Huh? Avg. salary of $1 million? Really?

I would seriously doubt that since many head coaches were glad to make $1 million in 205.

Heck, there are head coaches today making below $1.5 million.

 

[Jimke]

Wow. They better start hiring or something. There just can't be enough people in there to promote, can there?

The Patriots have three coaching assistants who might figure in
their plans.

Josh Boyer: 2000-2003 College Graduate Assistant, 2004 Defensive Backs
Coach at Bryant, 2005 Defensive Coordinator at South
Dakota Tech., 2006 to present NEP Defensive Coaching
Assistant

Brian Flores: Former B.C. Linebacker, 2004-2005 NEP Scouting Assistant,
2006-2007 NEP Pro Scout, 2008 to present NEP Special
Teams Coaching Assistant


Shane Waldron: Former Tufts Tight End, 2002-2004 NEP Operations
Assistant, 2005-2007 Notre Dame Graduate Offensive
Assistant, 2008 to present NEP Coaching Assistant

Based upon how Belichick has promoted his coaching assistants in
the past, I wouldn't doubt seeing a couple of them be promoted to
position coaches and the other returned to the front office to help
Nick Caserio.

 

[elandadem]

... Stephen Spach was a much better blocker than either of them and I think it was a mistake for the Pats not to dress him in the SB and it was a mistake for them to have let him go.

You hit the nail right on the proverbial head. Spach's absence allowed the Giants to bring the pressure that kept us from raising a meaningful banner at Gillette. Ironically, the AFCC foreshadowed the Super Bowl. Belichick out-thought himself and tried to show the Giants something different.

Spach was the missing linchpin. Had he been blocking up front; Brady would have lit up the scoreboard.

 

[IcyPatriot]

WTF ... :confused2: ... maybe it would have been better if we had sucked this year. Seriously ... has coaching become so diluted that we will lose guys every year because belichick is such a good trainer?

 

[PatsFan2]

Patriots blog - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

OTOH, our TEs are perpetually disappointing....

I don't know why People are acting so surprised. Virtually nothing from Three Day 1 Picks Two First Rounders and none of them even sniffed the Pro Bowl. Yep Mangurian is really going to be missed.

 

[AzPatsFan]

For some reason, I have a feeling that O Brien (?) getting promoted has a lot to do with this. Maybe Mangurian thought he was next in line?

Precisement, Mon General!

 

[Patjew]

Honestly, I think Watson has turned into a darn good blocker; especially on run plays. Not Daniel Graham level, but certainly towards the upper echelons of the position. Dave Thomas, on the other hand, is not.

Watson can't catch/hold onto the ball and Thomas can't block except for after the play is dead. Other than that our TE's are great.

 

[mgteich]

We certainly need a new TE coach. We have underused and mis-used Watson, Thomas and Spach. Also, we have gotten very little production out of this unit.

 

[Deus Irae]

We certainly need a new TE coach. We have underused and mis-used Watson, Thomas and Spach. Also, we have gotten very little production out of this unit.

How has this team "underused and mis-used" Watson?

 

[Patriots Nation NY]

Can you say Mark Bavaro ?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

The Patriots have three coaching assistants who might figure in
their plans.

Josh Boyer: 2000-2003 College Graduate Assistant, 2004 Defensive Backs
Coach at Bryant, 2005 Defensive Coordinator at South
Dakota Tech., 2006 to present NEP Defensive Coaching
Assistant

Brian Flores: Former B.C. Linebacker, 2004-2005 NEP Scouting Assistant,
2006-2007 NEP Pro Scout, 2008 to present NEP Special
Teams Coaching Assistant


Shane Waldron: Former Tufts Tight End, 2002-2004 NEP Operations
Assistant, 2005-2007 Notre Dame Graduate Offensive
Assistant, 2008 to present NEP Coaching Assistant

Based upon how Belichick has promoted his coaching assistants in
the past, I wouldn't doubt seeing a couple of them be promoted to
position coaches and the other returned to the front office to help
Nick Caserio.

I'd throw the name Brian Ferentz into the mix, he was a coaching assistant this past season (yes, Kirk's son and a former OL).

Another name to ponder is Kevin Bickers, a former TE's coach: Kevin Bickers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the D side: Tim Pichette - Scout.com: Pichette Now With New England Patriots

Really folks, y'all are forgetting who the HC of the NEP is and what his reputation is... :nono:

 

[groundgame]

Given the across-the board exodus of many key employees, it's becoming very evident that one of two things have been well underway since the Jets tanked the 4:15 PM game in WK 17: (A). Belichick has made it clear to his close lieutenants that he is retiring between now and the end of the season 2009, and they are all heading for the exits while the going is good; or (B). We have a Belichickian purge underway, that Jos. Stalin would be proud of, to gut virtually the entire non-coach/owner cerebral underbelly of the Pats organization, in order to start from scratch to bring on-board new energy and innovation to the table.

Logic would lead most to think that item (B) is suicidal, but that is offset by the nagging doubt as to why, in item (A) would BB not have informed, groomed and held McDaniels till 2010 if he was leaving. Therefore, my conclusion, as per prior comments on this subject but of a different angle, is that BB days in NE appear to have a 2010 horizon.

 

[aluminum seats]

Given the across-the board exodus of many key employees, it's becoming very evident that one of two things have been well underway since the Jets tanked the 4:15 PM game in WK 17: (A). Belichick has made it clear to his close lieutenants that he is retiring between now and the end of the season 2009, and they are all heading for the exits while the going is good; or (B). We have a Belichickian purge underway, that Jos. Stalin would be proud of, to gut virtually the entire non-coach/owner cerebral underbelly of the Pats organization, in order to start from scratch to bring on-board new energy and innovation to the table.

Logic would lead most to think that item (B) is suicidal, but that is offset by the nagging doubt as to why, in item (A) would BB not have informed, groomed and held McDaniels till 2010 if he was leaving. Therefore, my conclusion, as per prior comments on this subject but of a different angle, is that BB days in NE appear to have a 2010 horizon.

I don't see this at all. The departures this year have to be looked at indepently--the Pats are the top franchise in the league, so their guys are going to get picked off. I wouldn't look into it beyond that. As far as this guy goes, as I said in the "upgrade" thread and others have noted here, the tight ends for the Pats sure seemed like they've underperformed. I don't mind seeing him go at all.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Given the across-the board exodus of many key employees, it's becoming very evident that one of two things have been well underway since the Jets tanked the 4:15 PM game in WK 17: (A). Belichick has made it clear to his close lieutenants that he is retiring between now and the end of the season 2009, and they are all heading for the exits while the going is good; or (B). We have a Belichickian purge underway, that Jos. Stalin would be proud of, to gut virtually the entire non-coach/owner cerebral underbelly of the Pats organization, in order to start from scratch to bring on-board new energy and innovation to the table.

Logic would lead most to think that item (B) is suicidal, but that is offset by the nagging doubt as to why, in item (A) would BB not have informed, groomed and held McDaniels till 2010 if he was leaving. Therefore, my conclusion, as per prior comments on this subject but of a different angle, is that BB days in NE appear to have a 2010 horizon.

Playing football without a helmet does have drawbacks.

 

[Triumph]

Whats the big deal?

Losing Crennel and Weis is way worse than anybody whose left this off season besides Pioli, but NE still has Ernie Adams.

Seely needed to go for obvious reasons. McDaniels was offered a HC job where I beleive he will fail miserably. The TE's havent been a NE strong suit since Fauria and Graham IMO.

 

[PittPatriot]

How has this team "underused and mis-used" Watson?

They through the ball too hard to him and to area where only his hands, not his belly could reach. If they had scouted him well enough, they'd realize he catch the ball best while not moving and when it is thrown directly into his solar plexus.

 

[PittPatriot]

Watson can't catch/hold onto the ball and Thomas can't block except for after the play is dead. Other than that our TE's are great.

These problems would not exist if Garrett Mills (hybrid FB and TE) were on the roster.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't mean to belabor the point but I'd like to refer to an article
by Nick Cafardo in the Boston Globe on May 16, 2004. At the
time Romeo Crennel was making a salary well short of 1 million
dollars. Charlie Weis was making only $500,000. According to
Weis's agent, the average salary for an offensive coordinator was
one million dollars. Had Weis not been hired by Notre Dame, he
was going to be a coordinator for another team in 2005.

Weis has an above market deal when he signed it. In 2001 according to the NFL Coaches Association, the average coordinator's salary was $350k. In 2005, only 15 of the 62 NFL coordinators were making a million or more. At least one (Mike Heimerdinger) was hired in 2005. Probably at least two or three more were hired in that year since there were 19 new coordinators in 2005. From USAToday in August of 2005:

Top agents estimate about 15 coordinators will earn $1 million or more this season. In 2001, according to a survey by the NFL Coaches Association (NFLCA), the average pay for coordinators was less than $350,000.

USATODAY.com - Big bucks, no security for coordinators on both ends

It does reference that Heimerdinger was making $400k in 2004 as the Titans' OC and got $1 million the following year to go to the Jets. The article also references that Scott Leinahan who was making $300k as the Vikings OC in 2004, but bumped up to $833k in 2005 with the Dolphins. Also in the article, Norm Chow got $900k from the Titans in 2005 to be their OC (why would he take a below average deal to go to the NFL).

And look at this passage:

Taking the blame is certainly easier with the salaries that are being paid not only to coordinators but also to top-rated position coaches. The most stunning this season was the three-year, $2.5 million deal offensive line coach Hudson Houck received to leave San Diego and join Nick Saban's revamped staff at Miami.

Why would it be stunning that Houck got $833k a year if the average was $1 million? That would be a below average deal.

The fact of the matter is Weis saw other bigger name coordinators who had less Super Bowl hardware get million dollar deals and he wanted to be paid like a top coordinator which was around a million dollars. The Pats believed they didn't want to renegotiate while he was under contract.

As for Weis leaving the following year to take another coordinator job, he couldn't if he was under contract. If a coordinator is under contract, he cannot leave for a lateral move. If his contract was up, I am sure the Pats would have offered him a market (or above market) deal.

You are implying that the Pats don't pay their coaches well. I see no evidence of that. Weis and Crennel were paid above the average, but weren't paid near the top because of a recent wave (at the time) or big time deals for marquee coordinators to resign or come to a new team. I seriously doubt Dante Scarnnechia would be going into his 28th season with the Pats (15th season under Kraft) if Kraft didn't take care of his coaches.

 

[DaBruinz]

Given the across-the board exodus of many key employees, it's becoming very evident that one of two things have been well underway since the Jets tanked the 4:15 PM game in WK 17: (A). Belichick has made it clear to his close lieutenants that he is retiring between now and the end of the season 2009, and they are all heading for the exits while the going is good; or (B). We have a Belichickian purge underway, that Jos. Stalin would be proud of, to gut virtually the entire non-coach/owner cerebral underbelly of the Pats organization, in order to start from scratch to bring on-board new energy and innovation to the table.

Logic would lead most to think that item (B) is suicidal, but that is offset by the nagging doubt as to why, in item (A) would BB not have informed, groomed and held McDaniels till 2010 if he was leaving. Therefore, my conclusion, as per prior comments on this subject but of a different angle, is that BB days in NE appear to have a 2010 horizon.

How about option C? The Pats staff continued to show that it gets the most out of the players it puts on the field. Making the coaches highly valuable and other teams want that. That is clearly what happend with McDaniels.

Capers - He was an extra part. I honestly believe that BB hiring him was done as a favor to Capers to get him back into the pipeline for a bigger job. And he got that by going to Green Bay as their DC.

Mangurian - This is the one position that I believe that BB made the decision that it was time for a change. Neither Ben Watson nor David Thomas have truly progressed from where they were. In fact, as receivers, they both seem to have regressed.

Seely - He decided he needed a change of scenery. While he did wonders with Gostkowski, the coverage units weren't great at all.

Pioli - Decided he needed a new challenge and the Chiefs made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

So, we have 4 people moving on because they chose to and one because BB chose. The McDaniels moving on is a clear indication to me that BB is going to be here for several more years to come. Especially since there really isn't a viable HC candidate on the team currently.

In my eyes, its the natural progression of a damn good football team. There are 3 positions to fill (TE/WR/DB) and BB has a plethora of internal candidates to choose from.

 

[CrazyDave]

Our TE's have been really crappy, so this is probably be a good thing, no?