Clues to next year's defensive scheme

[Ring 6]

And 3 downs the LDE comes off the field and the LOLB shifts down to there spot and it moves to a light 3-3.

We normally (changing personell aside) move the 34 DEs inside, the OLBs to DE, take out the NT, and add a DB, and play nickle with 4 man fronts.

 

[rookBoston]

Here's what I read from the draft and off-season:

- BB has added significant depth with size and strength to his LB corp. Carpenter, Scott, Hightower, Jones, perhaps Bequette... adding Mayo, Spikes, Ninkovich and Fletcher back in, the unit has incredible versatility that it did not have last year. But, did he sign Carpenter and Scott in case he wasn't able to get LB help in the draft, or with the expectation that he'd add more LBs in the draft?

- I was surprised BB did not draft Devon Still or Brandon Thompson, or any of the prototypical DT/DE that would upgrade the 3-4 DL. I'm not sure if this is a vote of confidence in Deaderick and Pryor, or if BB is expecting to get Gerard Warren back for another go. Or, as you suggest, he is abandoning the traditional 3-4.

- With all the LBs that were added, none of them are all that great in coverage. Spikes, Carpenter, Jones, Cunningham, Hightower, Scott... these guys are all better rushing than dropping back. BB could have targeted Bobby Wagner or Sean Spence in the draft, or that skill set... and he didn't. That kind of coverage LB is actually not on the roster anywhere today, unless it's Fletcher, White.

 

[everlong]

I was going to start a thread on this but from the opposite perspective. Teams have taken notice of the Gronk\Hernandez phenomenon and I think BB realizes that the copy cats are going to cause him to respond to it. I think this draft was not only a retooling to address the passing game but more importantly to give them the personnel flexibility to respond to any personnel grouping they'll be facing from week to week.

Colts drafted both Fleener and Allen. Bengals add Charles to Gresham. Chargers added Ladarious Green to go with Gates.

Those teams are going to be match up nightmares for most teams and these teams are going to effectively run out of the spread with the two TEs.

I can see the Pats doing two DL with Wilfork and Love and then using 5 DE\LB types to combat this. Size and speed.

 

[VrabelJr]

With the amount of versatility that we have at LB and DE now I see us being in a 4-3 under as our base and nickel. People get too caught up in 3-4/4-3 talk. It's all about the alignment.

 

[BBass]

Last season I remember prior to Carters injury he ran a defense with a front 3 of Love-Wilfolk-Carter in the game before Carter got hurt. Carter was matched up against the an interior lineman and was able to use his spead. The responsibilities of a DE in a 3-4 for yapping are really on relevant toward the run game which is not an issue if you have Mayo-Spikes-Hightower pinching.

What's really happening is your simply running a basic 2-4 nickel with

DT - Wilfolk, Love, Brace
DT - Fanaene, Pryor, Deadrick
Hybrid DE/OLB - Jones, Scott, Baquette,
Hybrid DE/OLB - Ninkovich, Carter
Hybrid DE/OLB - Hightower, Cunningham
LB - Spikes, Fletcher
LB - Mayo, Carpenter

This will allow BB to move people around to the point of attack throughout the game. He can play the hybrids up or down and run odd and even fronts within series without subs.

Of all the 3-4 or 4-3 defenses out there who actually stops the pass? This is a passing league now and the spead, length and versatility of the players we've targeted seem to be based upon something new.

This talk of Seymour types at RE and elephant position sounds good because we won with it but that was also 6 years ago when stopping the run was important because we scored far less. But if our offense is putting up 30+ this new scheme will be fast, long and confusing against the pass and if the want to run fine we'll be up and there using time off the clock.

 

[Fencer]

I explained why I thought BB would neither go with a classical 2-gap 3-4 or a classical 1-gap 4-3. You responded by saying, it seems, that I'd mispredicted which of the two he'll use.

Please pardon me if I don't read and respond to the rest of the post. Perhaps you made some good points, but it seems we were talking past each other.

The other side of the coin, if only Devils Advocate in some cases:


The 34 is arguably a better pass D scheme than 43 becuase you are able to disuguise the 4th rusher as well as have more creative blitzes.
Most of the best pass rush and pass defense Ds are 34 teams.
We just drafted 3 front 7 guys who have 34 skillsets.


In the secondary yes, but I don't see a trend of drafting speed in the front 7 at all. Spikes is slow. Hightower is a behemoth. Jones is a 266 lb DE/OLB who many think will reach 280. Cunningham is not a speed LB.
I think you are backward on this one.


Its a long shot to say that he chose a scheme based on Haynesworth who was a parttime player (I think he average 15 snaps a game) before being unceremonisously cut.
BB is on record as saying the shift to the 43 was predicated on it being easier to install in a shortened camp. By seasons end we were back to the 34.



But in his own words he chose a system based in simplicity.


;quote]Now, however, he has a full off-season to teach.

5. BB is acting as his own DC, but it's not for in-game play-calling reasons.

 

[Fencer]

I was going to start a thread on this but from the opposite perspective. Teams have taken notice of the Gronk\Hernandez phenomenon and I think BB realizes that the copy cats are going to cause him to respond to it. I think this draft was not only a retooling to address the passing game but more importantly to give them the personnel flexibility to respond to any personnel grouping they'll be facing from week to week.

Colts drafted both Fleener and Allen. Bengals add Charles to Gresham. Chargers added Ladarious Green to go with Gates.

Those teams are going to be match up nightmares for most teams and these teams are going to effectively run out of the spread with the two TEs.

I can see the Pats doing two DL with Wilfork and Love and then using 5 DE\LB types to combat this. Size and speed.

Indeed. That's part of the reasoning behind my multi-SAM idea. BB has always wanted to knock guys off their routes. These days, however, you can only do it in the first 5 yards.

 

[IcyPatriot]

2001 ... 2012

Patriots Version

Revenge of The Clones.
​

 

[Fencer]

With the amount of versatility that we have at LB and DE now I see us being in a 4-3 under as our base and nickel. People get too caught up in 3-4/4-3 talk. It's all about the alignment.

I think it gets more exotic than that.

 

[IcyPatriot]

With the amount of versatility that we have at LB and DE now I see us being in a 4-3 under as our base and nickel. People get too caught up in 3-4/4-3 talk. It's all about the alignment.

The way I see it we're a 6-5 defense most of the time.

Seriously all the 3-4/4-3 talk but how often do we only have 4 DB's on the field?

 

[Fencer]

I was surprised BB did not draft Devon Still or Brandon Thompson, or any of the prototypical DT/DE that would upgrade the 3-4 DL. I'm not sure if this is a vote of confidence in Deaderick and Pryor, or if BB is expecting to get Gerard Warren back for another go. Or, as you suggest, he is abandoning the traditional 3-4.

- With all the LBs that were added, none of them are all that great in coverage. Spikes, Carpenter, Jones, Cunningham, Hightower, Scott... these guys are all better rushing than dropping back. BB could have targeted Bobby Wagner or Sean Spence in the draft, or that skill set... and he didn't. That kind of coverage LB is actually not on the roster anywhere today, unless it's Fletcher, White.

It would seem that BB is deemphasizing classical 3-4 DL, both for reasons of base scheme and because of the importance of sub packages.

I'm guessing we'll see all-out trench warfare in the first 5 yards, after which some guys go after the QB while some stay with the receivers as long as they can (backstopped by DBs), and it's hard for offenses to predict which will be which.

 

[Fencer]

I'll take a shot at your point-by-point post rather than Andy's.

I do agree that something is cooking in Foxboro. The talent that BB has brought onto the squad is a bit unexpected, and there is definitely something to be inferred. But, Fencer, even tho I agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure you have all the facts right.



The pro game is changing, no question. But I dont agree 3-4 is played out. Some of the best defenses are running 3-4.

I said "classical" BB 3-4 was getting played out. E.g., Pittsburgh does something different. I'm not sure I understand the differences between the Ravens' scheme and ours.


This is not really true. BB still seems devoted to bigger, slower players. Spikes is not a burner, for example. And cutting Guyton really took the only pure speed guy from the LB unit. In this draft class, his choice of Hightower and Jones is not about speed, but strength and shedding blocks. Both of those players show hallmark 2-gap skills.

Fair enough. But Spikes is going to be competing for reps (much as late-career Ted Johnson did).

And yet, BB released Haynesworth because he could not adapt to the scheme. So, really, should we conclude that BB is embracing 1-gap?

Partial/hybrid 1-gap? Yes, I think we can conclude that.
At least as an experiment last year -- but I don't think BB thinks it's an experiment that failed.


Well, not sure this is true. The 3-4 line would be Deaderick - Wilfork - Love

Not exactly Seymour -Wilfork - Warren.

with Ninkovich/Jones/Scott, Spikes, Mayo, Carpenter/Hightower. In fact, I would argue that Jones and Hightower are selections that help BB get BACK to the 3-4 that he was forced to abandon because his LB talent was too thin last year. With Jones he finally has someone who can play the Elephant again. Either Mayo or Hightower can play Will. In fact, what may be fun is to disguise which of them is the Will... see if the QB can make it out.



Again, I don't think this is true. The 4-3 line would be something like Fanene - Wilfork - Love/Brace - Carter/Bequette with Hightower/Carpenter, Spikes, Mayo as backers.

I don't think the distinguishing characteristic of this defensive front is that it is neither 3-4 nor 4-3... the unique thing is that the players give BB to run either scheme or both.

I'm not talking about 3-4 vs. 4-3; I'm talking about 1-gap vs. 2-gap vs. hybrid. And I think a hybrid scheme is a lot harder to read than one you know will be pure 2-gap, much as BB and other coaches commonly go for hybrid man/zone coverage. (I don't even know what pure man coverage would be.)



BB has always been pushing the limits of the scheme. The only thing that's new is that he has a higher caliber pool of talent to draw from.