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Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Oct 16, 2007.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's interesting to see the fringe Left and the rabid far right agreeing on one thing this week: it's the Jews.

    I know, I know, I must be "playing the anti-Semitism card."

    PFnV
     
  2. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    c'mon... you are a poster i respect and someone who always takes a noble path amid so much mudslinging here, but this thread starter is beneath you...

    as a member of the "fringe" left, i NEVER said "it's the Jews"...

    that being said, there are people of Jewish faith (Randi Rhodes, John Stewart), and then there is the Israeli government...
     
  3. PatsFanInVa

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    Hey, PCov, I have no problem with that fact. But in the fervor to go after the Israeli government, a number of errors are being trotted out of late. Two become serious problems:

    1) The idea that you must oppose the existence of Israel to oppose particular actions of Israel, and, more distressingly,

    2) If Jews support Israel, their loyalties are divided, and their American credentials are null and void.

    A third contention invariably follows:

    3) If you disagree with either of these demonstrably erroneous premises, you are censoring their source, and playing "the anti-Semitism card"

    Many members of the Fringe Right disagree with Coulter as well. Unpleasant as it may be to those who are somewhat left of the current political center, it's difficult to deny that Leftists and Rightists are both increasingly falling into a pattern. That doesn't mean all... but it is a noticeable uptick, from the point of view of those of us who follow such phenomena.

    Hey, the Zeitgeist is what it is.

    PFnV
     
  4. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    There's also an element out there - either Zionists or Christian - who claim anti-Semitism every time Israeli policy is condemned. That bothers me as well

    By the way, I agree with you on # 1 strongly. About #2, I think support of Israel is unfounded politically (just my opinion) and rather contradictory religiously (not that religion should matter at all), but it's hardly anti-American. Your credentials are good, even if you like Israel. I like Iceland a lot, But that doesn't make me pro-Lutheran, pro-Pagan or un-American.
     
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Stuck in the middle, not sure with whom though.
     
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Rhodes/Stewart they probably don't have any relatives left over there "To Cook" if Iran drops the bomb or get their Guts Blown Open if some Smelly Palestinian blows up the Bus they're taking the kids to the beach on.

    Israeli Jews are now coming to HATE Hollywood Jews, the Hollywood type Jews are now almost to the point that they SUPPORT the Muslims that want Destroy Israel and slaughter their own people.

    Barbara "Ugly" Streisand took her Sh!tty movie Yentil over to Israel a few years back so all her ancestors could watch and slobber over her because the Movie was a big flop over here, they welcomed her as a fellow Jew, now after she has changed almost into a "Muslim Supporter" a few weeks ago a leading Jew in Israel commented "Striesand" had bettter never set foot in Israel again, People like Striesand, Rhodes, Stewart, and many more in the entertainment world seem to turn on their own homeland all because of their HATRED and Jealousy of George Bush, the American people ignored them and all the "Soros Money" because of the two FOOLS they nominated (Gore/Kerry) and then elected Bush, "TWICE".

    The entertainment worlds Jews will elect a Democrat in 2008, they will then leave the Middle East and go over to fight the Hollywood War in Dafur, Iran will then NUKE Israel, then whoever survives the Nuke the Palestinians will slaughter, the Hollywood Jews will have lost their heritage, Israel will finally be gone, Rob Riener, Streisand and the rest of the far left wing Haters will make a few Anti American Movies Blaming It All On George Bush then they will hold a Giant Wife Swapping Party.

    Israel will be gone and over in Dafur American Troops will be dying and getting carved up with machettes in the "great and wonderful democrat war"

    It Boggles The Mind What Political Hatred Can Do
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    BILL COSBY FOR PRESIDENT STOP THE KILLING
    :bricks:
     
  7. fleabassist1

    fleabassist1 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #12 Jersey


    :agree: :yeahthat:
     
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I could never understand the "Love Affair" that America had with Israel right up to the point that if you criticized Israel your life was over, it seems the Democrats are changing all that.
    :bricks:
     
  9. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Here verbatum is a conversation I had with a Haitian women at JFK, during the early 90s when she saw hundreds of Russian Jews being admitted to the US as "refugees". I think it pretty much sums this whole argument up:

    Haitian Women (in a loud and condesending voice): "How come you guys welcome all these Russian Jews in as refugees, yet you go out on the ocean and intercept poor starving Haitians and stop them from landing in the US and return them to Haiti?"

    Me: Because the Haitians who live here, do not line Congress' pockets with money.


    She had no comeback.

    That being said, I would side with Israel over any Arab states that surround it. Israel has offered concession after consession, and all they have gotten for it is more violence.
     
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I too would side with Israel over any and all Muslim Nations even though I have been called a bigot and a racist for daring to question the Persecution of any prominent public figure that has also dared to speak out against some in the American Jewish Society.

    Israel is a small little country surrounded by Religious Savage Fanatics that want every Jew in the world DEAD.

    Wake up liberal american democrat bush hating Jews, Hitler is back, he is wearing a white sheet, he lives in a cave, he rides a donkey and his name is Osama.

    Yassar Arafat is dead but there are plenty more where he came from.

    Yes Streisand, Stewart and Rob Reiner wake up, the Holocaust is starting again and the America you are TRASHING is trying to help your people, you f-cking sore losing left wing bastards.
    :bricks:
     
  11. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    PFV,

    I, being a local critic of certain Israeli policies and actions, feel that a little clarification is in order.

    I agree with you on item #1 and I have time and time again, been very critical of certain actions of Israel but quickly pointed out that Israel did and does have the right to exist and also that during the earlier years, it also had the moral superiority.

    As to item #2, the point is that for a Jewish-American, it is next to impossible to be impartial and/or be exposed to any other views other than those that support Israel, right or wrong.

    Item #3, is an even more delicate one with many sides.

    First being that anti-Semitism is alive and well and we see it every day, here and elsewhere in the world. It needs to go away, does not belong in the 21st century, it is a black page in history with catastrophic results.

    Second being that it should not be forgotten or made light of, in its true meaning. Just look at the comments directed here and elsewhere against all Semites, including (but not limited to) Jews.

    Third being what we also witness, the cheap tactic of playing the anti-semite card, by those when criticized for certain actions of Israel. Thus, making light of anti-semitism, themselves.


    And you are right, I guess it is the sign of the times, the cultural (or lack thereof) climate, sadly enough.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2007
  12. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    I've already gleaned from you that you consider Chomsky (a jew, and the most influential intellectual in the world as well as the third most footnoted person in the world) to be the 'fringe left.' I find that highly ironic, seeing as though he criticizes Israel and is jewish. But once again, you've managed to turn criticism against Israel and AIPAC into jew bashing. The logical result of this is that Israel could start carpet bombing villages and criticism is forbidden. The jews are a unique minority, because they hold a position of power not shared by any other minority in the Western world, and the U.S.' staunchest ally in the middle east happens to be a jewish state. This isn't a conspiracy nor is it an indictment of jews, but it is a complicated issue, too complicated to play the "anti-semitism" card as you sarcastically put it. Thus, when I criticize American foreign policy and the middle east, I refer only to "Israel" (as in the state and it's actions) and the Israeli lobby, because not all jews, as Chomsky, Finkelstein and numerous others demonstrate, fit into the box you are trying to put them in.

    That being said, you cannot deny that Jews, especially in the United States do hold a position of power and wealth disproportionate to their population, as do WASPs. So it logically follows that those who hold power will most likely weild it in ways that are conducive to their own interests, namely the increase of power and hegemony throughout the world, both in the energy-rich middle east and in Latin America. So it's not the fact that they are Jewish that dictates their actions, but rather the fact that they are in power, and are the closest allies to the most powerful empire on earth, the United States. One could say the same about the British, but because they are not a nation-state and an ethnicity wrapped into one, the term "anti-British" has less sting, and conjures up less useful emotion when trying to quell dissent.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2007
  13. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Those Crazy Jooooos!!!!!
     
  14. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wildo: Chomsky is the father of linguistics as we know it. It would surprise me were he not among the most foot-noted intellectuals of the modern world. His writing is also often well-argued and well-thought-out. This does not, however, really establish his place on the political spectrum. If anything, it militates for the likelihood that he is on the left. Further left, it turns out, than I am comfortable with. This is hardly putting Chomsky in a box, it is simply a fact of life. Sometimes I can read someone, very much admire the sum of argumentation and thought he's put into his premise, and still say, "nope. He got that wrong." Usually I'd say it in a great many more words, of course. Is Chomsky on the fringe left? Yes. Poll a thousand people on a platform made up of Chomskyisms. Tell me where you think he'll fall.

    To all (I am too tired to specifically put names to each post, so I will do the opposite of ad-hom, and just touch on the comments...)

    One poster points out it is impossible to be a Jew in the U.S. and be impartial, or exposed to views that do not support Israel. I disagree, because I am a Jew in the U.S., and I am exposed to such views all the time. It should be noted that I do not always disagree with such views. I'll also mention that opinions of the type I've seen here in the last few days clarify for me how quickly the purely political blends into irrational fear of a group. I think we on the left need to examine just how much we indulge in such a transition. Invariably, statements like the above - Jews can not be impartial on the subject of Israel, and have never considered alternative views of Israel - are the very weakest form of discussion of Jews qua Jews, whereas all other American commentators on the subject are discussed as Americans.

    This is at odds with the Multipolar model of American Jewry, as elaborated by Wil, above. Finkelstein and Chomsky, for example, are critical of Israel. Many Israelis in Israel are critical of Israel.

    Harry's style, as always, is hard to forget. The Hollywood Jews and the Israel Jews... etc. etc. etc. Listen, Harry -- I'd miss you if you left, but politics is just not your thing. That's all I'm sayin' homes.

    The notion of the "anti-Semitism card" can probably be googled and turn up hundreds of thousands of hits. It's a new catchphrase. Qui bene? Obviously, if anti-Israel opinion is truly suppressed, those who would voice anti-Israeli opinion. It is handy to have a catchphrase for such blacklisting and intellectual bullying. But since we see anti-Israel opinion all the time, it is also worth noting that the anti-Semite benefits from having a ready made excuse for why he appears anti-Semitic to Jews.

    Probably the most cited "culprit" of "playing the anti-Semitism card" is Dershowitz, who maintains that Israel is singled out by standards not applied to other nations, and that very often American and/or World Jewry is criticized either implicitly or explicitly, for the very same failings.

    Basically, the idea is that if you look at, for example, the regimes of the Assads in Syria, or the Ayatollahs in Iran, or even the relatively "stable" nations of Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, you find a comparative human rights mess.

    Yet a certain contingent's concern is always for the terrible rights record of Israel -- with silence on the subject of other states in the region, silence on the manifestly more eggregious violations perpetrated by the U.S. herself, silence on the conditions precipitating the failings of the Israeli state in that regard.

    And typically, this criticism is coupled with a criticism of the notion of a Jewish state, if not a call to undo what was established in 1947-1948, (through the UN Mandate, and to the disbelief of a world bent on not intervening in the conflict.)

    So let's see: We are critical of this Jewish polity; we are critical of it because it is Jewish by character; we are critical of those who are less critical of it, whom we say are all Jews, and if not Jews, people bullied by Jews; we are not critical of Muslim or Christian states, by the same yardstick; and we make it a form of radical chic to oppose the national aspirations of Jews, but not of any other national group.

    By the way, if you expose this pattern, you are playing a "card." You are "silencing" and "censoring" those who hold such views, by freely expressing your own opinion.

    I'm aware that Dershowitz peddles the extreme form of this argument. I do not, however, see this argument as being without merit.

    I think the trouble is that the so-overlooked attitudes that no Jew can really be exposed to, simply do not add up.

    We demand of Israel a different standard than we demand of ourselves or our European allies (for those on the right,) and different from the poor, downtrodden states of the region (for those on the left). It is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

    Now then - do I look at Israel and see a nation that should not be criticized? No. I do look at a nation that should be criticized in context.

    I think what I see far more often is a sort of "Hey look ma! I'm on what you and Dad think is the wrong side!" attitude. It's often dilletantish, and often relies on extremely selective history, amnesia as regards inconvenient facts, and black-and-white victim/occupier portraits that do not tell close to the full story. Most obviously, the Israeli desire for security is simply disregarded, in favor of the Palestinian desire for sovereignty: not just over the occupied territories, but over Israel proper.

    It is a cause celebre, too often lightly considered, and the Israelis (then the Jews) are taken to task for not getting on board.

    Heaven forbid that a nation founded in large part (but not exclusively) by holocaust and czarist pogrom survivors, should remember the words of Azam Pasha, who declared the war on Israel in 1948 to be a "war of extermination."

    Nobody is "playing a card" there either. I am pointing out that rosy scenarios about single-state coexistence may have had a shot in the 1920s when Buber was arguing for a binational state. In the current context, the idea of removing Israel as a political entity is absurd - not least because the very people calling for "anti-Israeli" action also call for anti-Semitic action. Nasrallah, for example, says he likes the idea of a state of Israel, because if you put all the Jews in one country it makes it easier to kill them.

    Do I favor negotiating with Fatah? Yes. Do I favor negotiating with Hamas? No. Do I think Hezbollah is Lebanon's savior? I am perhaps 20 years ahead of the mass of Lebanese, in finding that a laughable notion.

    I am aware I am rambling. It is late. I'd like to know why we apply unequal yardsticks to Israel. I'd really like to know it's not because Israel is full of Jews. The evidence leads me to the contrary conclusion.

    The rapid slide into naked anti-Semitism among some who so oppose Israel, the polity, has not convinced me I am "playing an anti-Semitism card." Rather, it has cast in stark relief how so many believe anti-Semitism to be a thing of the past. I say this in good will. I have no problem with those who argue against Israeli actions... but again, I think those arguments need to be in context, and proportionate.

    But the thing is, a proportionate critique of Israel is just not sexy.

    From an American left historical perspective, anti-Israelism would also not be a worthy heir of the now-unnecessary anti-Apartheid movement. And so if there's not a White South Africa, we have to invent one, or more precisely, graft one onto the state of Israel.

    PFnV
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2007
  15. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Simplistically put, I have always seen the US - Israel dynamic as analogous to the Big brother sticking up for the little brother (a situation I had to live with when I was a kid). One of my best friends went to a Catholic all-boy high school. This kid was real big and bad, but he had a brother who was one year older and very effeminate (turns out later that he was gay, like we all suspected but allowed). This kid spent his entire high school life beating the crap out of older kids in school for picking on his brother. He resented it for years until he got older, wiser, and more accepting, but it still caused him a lot of grief, and he got nothing in return because the older brother turned out to be a real POS loser...still is.

    Not sure if this makes sense, but I see Israel in a similar light.
     
  16. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, but it explains a lot.



    KIDDDINNNNNG.

    To be a bit more to the point, I agree with your initial summation, that it is simplistic.

    If you want American policy in the Middle East to revolve around Israel, you can claim that the U.S. is contantly "sticking up for little brother."

    But there aren't American troops anywhere in Israel. We went over to stick up for Saudi and Quwait, and then we went over to invade Iraq, to show them Iraqis that we won't be cowed by um, some other guys, but you get the idea. None of these military adventures were about Israel.

    We sent guys to sit in a bunker in Lebanon, not Israel, and watched as Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad picked them off like sitting ducks. Beirut is not in Israel. Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad are not Israeli groups.

    But what do we talk about? The suspicion, without proof, that Israel runs around sinking US ships purposefully.

    PFnV
     
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    I know Israel doesn't sink ships. I think our presence there is a combination of oil and back up Israel. We don't have to have troops there to have a major presence associated with Israel. It's well known that if any Arab country...I said country, meaning legitimate government with a formal, uniformed military....does a full frontal on Israel that they will have to answer to us. Not saying Israel can't defend itself. They have more than enough US hardware and intel to do the job, just like KofSA. You are aware, of course, of the amount of aid Israel and Egypt get. I don't have to drag that out again.

    My point is that, on top of being hated by all her neighbors for some reason - religious bigotry, I imagine - Israel is associated with the US and vice-versa. The thing that holds them together is money and an insane reliance on some Biblical prophesy/mythology story that gives Israel special standing in the eyes of the God of Abraham that ties together nicely with the Christian Americans who think America has a different but just as special favoritism from the Old Man That Floats In The Sky.

    ...and it sucks.

    This about says it all:

    "...In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

    So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrles and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

    Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

    The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.
    "
    -George Washington's Farewell Address
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2007
  18. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    .......bump........
     
  19. PatsFanInVa

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    It's a wonder George Washington was able to so thoroughly approve of American actions in World Wars I and II!

    Okay, so we should militarily intervene elsewhere in the region, and that's appropriate, but we shouldn't have alliances with Israel?

    Any other country, of course, would pass the Washingtonian foreign entanglements test somehow. We can have a list of Most Favored Nations, and that passes the Washington test. Just not Israel.

    Come on man. I agree that large recipients of US aid like Egypt and Israel should be weaned from that aid; I personally believe that is more of a win for Egypt and Israel than for us, given the rapidity with which the U.S. spends three billion dollars in, surprise, Iraq. It's a comparative drop in the bucket in the US budget, but Israeli latitude would be freed up immensely with such a decrease in funding.

    Do I believe America should abandon all interests in the mid-east? It's an interesting proposition. Even assuming that other nations would not fill the power vacuum -- a silly assumption in the first -- one wonders what we'd do about the oil. But then, hell, that's going to eventually happen anyway.

    Do I believe America should only abandon the sole democracy in the region?

    First of all, I do not think it is in America's interest, even if we make human rights and democracy non-issues.

    But why is this the call of the Left? Weren't we the ones that could not stomach the propping up of Somoza in Nicaragua? Well, if the regimes surrounding Israel are propped up, why would the Left support that?

    Unless of course the Left isn't hard core enough to really trust that bikes and hybrids are all you need.

    So the goal is, act like the American Right did toward Somoza, and embrace the dictators of the Arab world, who are basically desireable allies because in the process of ruling their nations with iron thumbs, they pump out enough barrels of oil to keep everything going?

    Put human rights, justice, and support for democratic regimes back into the mix, and it's a no-brainer; flipping loyalties would simply reinforce the message of hypocrisy the US is sending regarding human rights and democracy.

    Why do we want to increase this phenomenon, rather than decrease it?

    PFnV
     
  20. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Yup.
    But Wildo, guys like Chomsky are called self hating Jews for their analysis. Basically, depending on if you're Jewish or not, if you criticize Israel you are either an anti-semite if a gentile and a self-hating Jew if Jewish
     

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