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Climate Bill: 20% by 2020, $175 per household annually

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Jun 30, 2009.

  1. PatsFanInVa

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    Yep, that's right. It really costs $175 per household, not $3000, in full implementation. Long story short: it's not enough, and it's watered down, but it's the best we're gonna get under the circumstances.

    What Does the Energy Bill Really Mean for CO2 Cuts? - TIME

    Last edited: Jun 30, 2009
  2. patsfan13

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    Their guess at thecost is wrong IMO other studies produce very different results. In Europe the model for the lefties these measures have produced no reductions in 'greenhouse' gases.
  3. atomdomb

    atomdomb Rookie

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    Right. The big dig was only supposed to cost 2.8 billion. Are we still this naive?
  4. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    The Cap and Tax Fiction - WSJ.com

    "The biggest doozy in the CBO analysis was its extraordinary decision to look only at the day-to-day costs of operating a trading program, rather than the wider consequences energy restriction would have on the economy. The CBO acknowledges this in a footnote: "The resource cost does not indicate the potential decrease in gross domestic product (GDP) that could result from the cap.""
  5. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    A few additional comments :

    - obama promised no more taxes OF ANY KIND for those making $250K or below. This would violate that as would many of the other proposals. Liar, liar, obama on fire.

    - Even this pittance of $175 is still $175. It's post tax so it's like a $225 pay cut annually.

    - The cost differs by location as the map thread showed. Ironically, the struggling midwest gets hit the hardest. So while some of us would benefit, that makes the $175 much higher for many others.
  6. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    For an administration that preached a shift away from foriegn oil. This bill will severly hamper our refineries ability to compete with foreign oil companies. So I would say we should plan on being at the mercy of various oil providing governments. So one might say, we will shift away driving as much or drive a more fuel effecient car. Well the reality is that the taxes on gas pay to maintain the roads and interstate highways in this country. With people using less gas we'll have to find another way to get those revenues. So I hope that air we breathe is really fresh, because we are going to need to tax it to maintain our infrastructure.
  7. Harry Boy

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    Critics are lying about the cost because Obama Groupies don't want to believe it.
  8. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    They don't need to lie, they just stop the story short. People eat it up. Most people are short sighted and lazy, if you tell them it's ok that's good enough their brain shuts off. If it's too good to be true then it probably is! It takes time to solve these problems not just laws. The true underbelly of this story is how wall street benefits. During the campaign they were the villians, however they will be making out like bandits trading these commodities as they come in from foreign countries and it goes beyond oil, there's a whole bunch of goods we'll be importing.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2009
  9. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    That may be their estimated direct cost to each household, though I doubt they even have had a chance to go through the entire bill, including the 300+ page 3:00AM ammendment.

    But the indirect costs will be much much higher. The cost of everything will go up. Any business that uses energy will pay, and this of course gets passed on to the consumer.
  10. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    ahahahahahaha...EXACTLY!
  11. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Meet the new people, same as the old people.

    People who've read a lot of books, but haven't run as much as a lemonade stand, have trouble understanding this simple fact.
  12. State

    State Rookie

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    Double that figure.

    MIT came out with a study that put the numbers higher than the CBO's.

    But the cap-and-trade disaster in Europe strongly indicates that the costs escalate higher than anticipated.

    Nothing new when it comes to government policies: the costs are deliberately downplayed.

    Medicare, Social Security, the new Obama health care proposal, and now this.

    And it's terribly regressive, as it becomes a tax levied on purchasers of electricity.

    Can we just be sensible and start building nuclear power plants, which currently provide 20 percent of our electricity and don't produce green house gases.

    France has nuclear provide 80 percent of its electricity, and it doesn't produce nuclear waste--it recycles it.
  13. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Why would we build nuclear power plants that don't emitt green house gases? You can't tax "clean" energy silly. We want stuff that pollutes, cuz then we can do two things. We can A) control behavior, and B) push forth a bogus system where which we use the environment to fear monger a means to take money from the have's, and use it at our discretion, to shape the world as we see fit. Nuclear energy wouldn't allow us to do any of that. Hence, we don't want it.
  14. PatsFanInVa

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    So basically, by your logic, Obama has taxed Americans if you feel you could get cheaper diamonds by invading Zaire, then you figured out what we pay per capita for bling in our lives, divide it across all households, and declare that Obama has raised our taxes by not invating Zaire.

    Or, since all smokers now have heftier taxes on their smokes, Obama has now raised taxes on those making less than 250K.

    Or, if Obama stopped all illegal immigration, he would be taxing all Americans making less than 250K, because illegal labor costs less than legal labor in many cases. Fraudulent Tax Claims Institute or whatever could call it the Lettuce Tax, and presto, Obama raised your taxes.

    Come off it, BF, you know as well as I do that you will not have a line item on your 1040 form (complete with orwellian enforcement) charging you additional income tax based on your carbon footprint.

    Things that make your footprint smaller will be encouraged and will cost less. Things that make your footprint larger will be discouraged and will cost more (costs will be passed on to you.) You will in fact be able to sell electricity back through the grid, and actually make out on the deal.

    Red herring.

    I notice too some of our usual Friends of the President (sic) are having a ball trying to gainsay the CBO estimate, when the CBO was the absolute last word in economic growth estimates a couple of days ago, when their stats were bad for Obama's case.

    In any event, one says "double it!" Fine. Let's say it's $350 per household, by 2020. That's pretty long to get used to an increase that comes out to less than a basic cable bill. Your basic cable bill, however, does not have the relative societal advantage of helping to move us toward energy independence and an environmentally sustainable energy policy.

    The point is, even if you can get from $175 to $350 per household, you're still an order of magnitude below what the chicken littles are (predictably) squawking.

    PFnV
  15. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    What is unfortunate about you guys is you defend "The Idiot" even when he's wrong. Admit he lied. It's OK.

    This isn't about income tax or 1040s. He said ANY OF YOUR TAXES. That includes Cigarette taxes. It includes Soda taxes. It includes ANY taxes because he SAID ANY taxes.
  16. PatsFanInVa

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    Did the "My Plan" he referenced talk about "sin taxes?"

    My problem isn't that this won't turn out to be a lie. I think it will, and I said it then. I am a believer that we are undertaxed and that once this downturn is over, the responsible thing to do will be to raise taxes to the extent necessary to pay for what we receive from the govt, just as other industrialized nations do.

    HOWEVER (and I might even complain about it, actually,) he has not done so so far. You guys are jumping the gun.

    "Not income tax, not payroll tax, not capital gains tax, not any of your taxes. And chances are you will get a tax cut."

    Really, that means to you that if it rains too much while Obama's in office, he's taxed you because you had to keep your lights on too long? Is that what it really means?

    Or does it mean, when 2 guys are discussing tax policy, that he's not going to try to move a payroll tax, an income tax, and a capital gains tax around in a shell game?

    I'm pretty tired of it. You're in a little vacuum world playing a definitional game. He's not taxing you, he's taxing a company from which you're buying a product or a service. I would think the "you" in the letter of the Obama canon quoted above would be an individual rather than a corporation.

    PFnV
  17. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Sure he is. If my electric bill goes up because of him, he's taxed me. Same for any other product. It may be indirect but it's really close to direct. Bottom line, obama would cost me, and you, and everyone else a lot of money and he promised not to unless I make more than $250K (which I don't).
  18. PatsFanInVa

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    Yeah you know, seriously, you can get the other 20%ers to get riled up with you, but it's just a practice run for now.

    I do think it's coming. I did think it was a "oh crap this bullsh1t again" moment for me.

    But the tax plan is what he said it was. I just had that reaction knowing how the math will come out in a few years. We DO need higher taxes. This isn't them.

    PFnV
  19. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    I have no idea what you are saying - but the one line I did understand - "we do need higher taxes", that may be true but obama has shot his wad on that one. If he raises ANY taxes he needs to come out and admit he was wrong and not blame Bush. It's his now. And he said "no raised taxes".
  20. PatsFanInVa

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    And he has not raised taxes on you or your family.

    I think the day will inevitably come when taxes WILL have to be raised even on people making under 250K. So far that day hasn't come, and Obama hasn't done it.

    But WHEN that day comes (or "if", if you prefer,) you can measure that promise -- that his plan does not raise taxes on a family making <250K -- against every other promise you've ever heard in a campaign, "Read my lips" being one of them.

    If it strikes you as the most eggregious among them, you can judge this president as positively the most duplicitous example of slime ever to take the oath of office. If you are representative of most Americans, he may be voted out. After all he was talking about his "Plan", (his tax plan in this context,) and like others who've had to stray from the "plan" during the campaign, some may think promise-vs.-reality is a mixed bag for politicians in general.

    But the point here is, you're all in a lather, and the triggering event has not even happened.

    You're bending over backward to pretend it's happened.

    Those are two different things.

    When/if the event of "new taxes on families making <250K" happens, how much credence do you think you have if you call every new day the sun comes up an "Obama Tax"? (The sun came up on Obama's watch; now I have all the expenses conditioned on living another day; Obama therefore raised my taxes...)

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