Clay Matthews and size

[Sciz]

i doubt there is a guy like matthews in this years draft...if there is, i hope we get him

There is. His name is Von Miller. Also a one-dimensional 3-4 pass rusher who can't hold up against the run.

 

[BPF]

In my opinion, Clay Matthews made the play of the superbowl. With the Steelers driving(and with momentum) his forced fumble and great athletic move to get into position seemed to be the momentum shift the Packers HAD to have in that situation. There's a lot of talk about the Pats having specific size needs in their linebackers and how Matthews didn't fit into that requirement, but after seeing that particular play i'm convinced that a FOOTBALL player can work in ANY system, regardless of size. Honestly, had he been the Pats ideal SIZE for a LB would he have been able to scrunch himself down and shed the block like that? I doubt it. Love the play, the move and the way he finished the tackle. THAT is the kind of LB we need!!

He made a good play and he's been a good player so far in his career because the system is perfect for him and the rest of the players on the Packers D are pretty damn good. Personally, I'm tired of all this hype about Matthews. Pickett had as much to do with that fumble as Matthews did, I know Matthews got credit for FF on the stat sheet. Also, Matthews had a solid season but seeing how he could not consistently set the edge shows why the Pats may have passed. In addition, he didn't play all that well with coverage being questionable in the SB due to injuries in secondary. He does have a great first step but he also does get a lot of coverage sacks and he does have some definite weaknesses to his game. Everyone is enamored with this kid and overlooks his flaws. No player is perfect, don't make this kid out to be a perfect player. Defense is a team game. Woodson, Willams, Collins, Shields, etc have a big hand in Matthews getting a lot of his sacks as does Raji, Pickett and Jenkins.

There are tons of prospects at OLB that people wanted to draft, there is a new binky every year for 5+ yrs now and the only name that's hit is Matthews. Besides Matthews I can't name one OLB the Pats should have drafted in the 1st Rd over the last 5+ years. I do remember people clamoring for Jerry Hughes and he didn't even see the field last year for Indy which was considered a perfect fit for him. How about Sergio Kindle?? Manny Lawson in 2006?? Larry English, Jarvis Moss, Vernon Gholston??

 

[DW Toys]

He made a good play and he's been a good player so far in his career because the system is perfect for him and the rest of the players on the Packers D are pretty damn good. Personally, I'm tired of all this hype about Matthews. Pickett had as much to do with that fumble as Matthews did, I know Matthews got credit for FF on the stat sheet. Also, Matthews had a solid season but seeing how he could not consistently set the edge shows why the Pats may have passed. In addition, he didn't play all that well with coverage being questionable in the SB due to injuries in secondary. He does have a great first step but he also does get a lot of coverage sacks and he does have some definite weaknesses to his game. Everyone is enamored with this kid and overlooks his flaws. No player is perfect, don't make this kid out to be a perfect player. Defense is a team game. Woodson, Willams, Collins, Shields, etc have a big hand in Matthews getting a lot of his sacks as does Raji, Pickett and Jenkins.

There are tons of prospects at OLB that people wanted to draft, there is a new binky every year for 5+ yrs now and the only name that's hit is Matthews. Besides Matthews I can't name one OLB the Pats should have drafted in the 1st Rd over the last 5+ years. I do remember people clamoring for Jerry Hughes and he didn't even see the field last year for Indy which was considered a perfect fit for him. How about Sergio Kindle?? Manny Lawson in 2006?? Larry English, Jarvis Moss, Vernon Gholston??

Ah...Methinks Manny Lawson has been a pretty decent LB. Perhaps the best of all mentioned in coverage. He is a FA and I would be tickled if we got him.
He is not called to rush in his scheme as much as he could at SF but he can. In fact, look below. You will have H.L.H. (heavy lip hang). He might be the best all round OLB FA. He had almost 60 tackles, a pair of forced fumbles, an INT a 2.5 sacks and 6 PBU. He is only 26 and 6' 5" and 245lbs and fast enough to be a very good cover LB.
He played on a weak SF Team.
What is not to like?

At the end of Nov. Manny Lawson was the most productive OLB as far as QB pressures go.

While most of the football world reports dutifully on sack counts, we tell you who’s getting all of the pressure, and on what percentage of pass-rush snaps.

Pass-Rushing Productivity. We have missed you. There are more than a few surprises here, not the least of which is the overall leader, a guy that doesn’t exactly conjure images of Bruce Smith or Lawrence Taylor.

For those unfamiliar with the formula, here it is. First, we total something called “QB Disruption Points,” which values sacks over hits and pressures: QB Disruption Points = Sacks + Hits (0.75) + Pressures (0.75)

We arrived at that balance after a general audit of our grades and tracking over the past three seasons, and found that hits and pressures represent about 75 percent of the value of sacks.

Then, to arrive at a score that measures productivity per rush, it’s simple: Pass-Rushing Productivity = QB Disruptions Points / Number of Pass Rushes x 100.

The Overall Top 10
POS Team Name Rushes PRP
LB San Francisco 49ers Manny Lawson 111 16.7
LB Kansas City Chiefs Tamba Hali 306 15.8
LB San Francisco 49ers Travis LaBoy 120 15
LB Green Bay Packers Clay Matthews 242 14.5
DE Atlanta Falcons John Abraham 218 14.3
DE Seattle Seahawks Chris Clemons 297 14.1
DE Minnesota Vikings Ray Edwards 277 13.9
LB Cleveland Browns Marcus Benard 129 13.8
LB Pittsburgh Steelers LaMarr Woodley 236 13.6
DE St Louis Rams Chris Long 333 13.3


Here is the link:

Pass-Rushing Productivity: Who’s making the most of their opportunities? | ProFootballFocus.com

How many of you are shocked and want to change their opinion on Manny Lawson, raise your hands?

I don't have the year final tally but this is good enough for me! Bill wants QB pressures and feels they are as valuable.

Ironically as far as DL guys, Wright was on the top.
DW Toys

 

[Sciz]

He's obviously thought so highly of in SF that he was only on the field for 1/3 of the passing plays of a lot of other guys on the list.

 

[Patriot Missile]

The person who made this system has smoked way too much crack in his day. You failed too mention that Mike Wright is the #1 rated DE at applying pressure per attempt or whatever, according to this chart. Gerard Warren is 13.

Sorry but I just didn't see it. Mike Wright is vastly underrated by a lot of us NE fans. I really think he can disrupt the passing game on a good day. I honestly believe his absence vs the Jets ultimately sealed our doom and cost us a Championship game berth. He's a pretty good player, but not great.

However .....It is just not right that some yahoo made up his own little system like dungeons and dragons and apllied it to football.

 

[Sciz]

However .....It is just not right that some yahoo made up his own little system like dungeons and dragons and apllied it to football.

This is ProFootballFocus. Not only have they made up their own grading system for players, but you have to pay $90 a season to see them :lol2:

 

[DW Toys]

He's obviously thought so highly of in SF that he was only on the field for 1/3 of the passing plays of a lot of other guys on the list.

What? No, it means he was in coverage more than not. He started all 16 games and he is a three down type OLB but they had a decent rotation with Haralson, Brooks and LaBoy. That is why they might let Lawson go.

Hey I am not trying to change your mind. I don't care. You are right to have an opinion. It is a point that was made, whether valid in the eyes of those who accept this or not. It proves nothing but it is more proof than anyone else has made or offered on the other "got to haves". Percentage wise, he seems to be a little bit more effective than Hali or Woodley. He is also a better fit than both of those shorter LBs in the fact Bill likes length at OLB.

You can disparage anyone you want to by saying they don't know this or that, but I feel he is pretty decent and disruptive when he rushes which is all that site is saying. He has been SF's best cover LB. The bonus is when they rush him he can be effective.

I will stress my point again. BB likes sacks but prefers pressure and disruptive. That is a fact. Just seems like a better fit than the others mentioned who will be tagged anyway. In SF Franklin will be tagged.
DW Toys

 

[Sciz]

What? No, it means he was in coverage more than not.

Then he was deemed a coverage OLB and when he rushed, he had the benefit of it being unexpected.

 

[TriplecHamp]

He made a good play and he's been a good player so far in his career because the system is perfect for him and the rest of the players on the Packers D are pretty damn good. Personally, I'm tired of all this hype about Matthews. Pickett had as much to do with that fumble as Matthews did, I know Matthews got credit for FF on the stat sheet. Also, Matthews had a solid season but seeing how he could not consistently set the edge shows why the Pats may have passed. In addition, he didn't play all that well with coverage being questionable in the SB due to injuries in secondary. He does have a great first step but he also does get a lot of coverage sacks and he does have some definite weaknesses to his game. Everyone is enamored with this kid and overlooks his flaws. No player is perfect, don't make this kid out to be a perfect player. Defense is a team game. Woodson, Willams, Collins, Shields, etc have a big hand in Matthews getting a lot of his sacks as does Raji, Pickett and Jenkins.

There are tons of prospects at OLB that people wanted to draft, there is a new binky every year for 5+ yrs now and the only name that's hit is Matthews. Besides Matthews I can't name one OLB the Pats should have drafted in the 1st Rd over the last 5+ years. I do remember people clamoring for Jerry Hughes and he didn't even see the field last year for Indy which was considered a perfect fit for him. How about Sergio Kindle?? Manny Lawson in 2006?? Larry English, Jarvis Moss, Vernon Gholston??

Why the **** is a 14-2 team with a non existant pass rush looking for the perfect outside linebacker? The day you find the perfect OLB for our scheme coming out of college is the day we better have a top 5 pick. Some of you keep looking for that perfect prospect while telling yourselves that Clay Matthews can't play here.

 

[patsfan-1982]

i dont think its all that much about size TBC and Ninkovich are both the same size as Clay Matthews and they play for the pats its more about were the pats draft ever year at the bottom of the draft and they trade down even more so there is relly not much talent left to pick from... as far as Clay Matthews goes if BB and ever team picking in the 10 knew he was going to be that good he would have been gone a long time ago the draft is about luck

 

[Shelterdog]

i dont think thats fair at all


1. you dont know the guy; 2. people have late growth spurts; 3. you dont know how hard he works; 4. kinds go to college all the time as skinny, lanky athletes and put on a lot of weight. me for instance, i entered as a college athlete at 6'1 170 pounds. never took one supplement, by the time i was a sophomore i was 6'1 210 and the 40 pounds extra was muscle. i was bigger, stronger, faster, more explosive...and i didnt take anything. there are A LOT of kids who end up being 330 pound lineman who enter their freshman season as 6'4 230 pound kids. you just never know.

you may be right, but i am not going to be so quick to say so. cushing was caught, matthews was not. who knows.

I'm sure he works incredibly hard.

It's not the first weight gain that surprises me-he went from 6'1 165 to 6'3 225 in a pretty short period of time but he was still a growing kid and he does have a lot of good genetics on his side-it's the second increase which happened after he'd been at the same weight for a few years.

If you stayed at 210 for a few years and then went up to 240 in a two year period, I'd have questions.

It's also not the same as kid turning into a fat lineman. The guy keeps adding a ton of weight and getting more explosive at every turn. However he's doing it it's remarkable.

 

[patchick]

It's not the first weight gain that surprises me-he went from 6'1 165 to 6'3 225 in a pretty short period of time but he was still a growing kid and he does have a lot of good genetics on his side-it's the second increase which happened after he'd been at the same weight for a few years.

If you stayed at 210 for a few years and then went up to 240 in a two year period, I'd have questions.

And on genetics....fwiw, Clay's football-playing brothers who didn't have Cushing as a workout partner experienced no "late growth spurt," and facially resemble Clay pre-growth spurt. :confused2:

 

[Shelterdog]

And on genetics....fwiw, Clay's football-playing brothers who didn't have Cushing as a workout partner experienced no "late growth spurt," and facially resemble Clay pre-growth spurt. :confused2:

His oldest brother kyle was a 6-1 200 safety at USC. His younger brother casey is 6-2 230 at orgeon. You can assume both were in good college strength programs. But one of the brothers manages to throw on 30 pounds very quickly after plateauing for a few years at 6-3 230?

 

[DW Toys]

Why the **** is a 14-2 team with a non existant pass rush looking for the perfect outside linebacker? The day you find the perfect OLB for our scheme coming out of college is the day we better have a top 5 pick. Some of you keep looking for that perfect prospect while telling yourselves that Clay Matthews can't play here.

Best post of the year!
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

i dont think its all that much about size TBC and Ninkovich are both the same size as Clay Matthews and they play for the pats its more about were the pats draft ever year at the bottom of the draft and they trade down even more so there is relly not much talent left to pick from... as far as Clay Matthews goes if BB and ever team picking in the 10 knew he was going to be that good he would have been gone a long time ago the draft is about luck

the draft is about luck Thank you!!!!!This is my point about a 17% success rate in the NFL Draft. One good Draft last year and everyone is giddy. I hope we have an excellent Draft but the percentages of finding a better fit is that you can preview a FA by his NFL work resume.

Everyone assumes the whole Class form first to seventh round will make the Team, when in truth perhaps two will be playing at a high level three years from their first NFL game. There are a few good players in FA that have some pass rush skills this year. I hope Bob brings his check book.
DW Toys

 

[Ochmed Jones]

the draft is about luck Thank you!!!!!This is my point about a 17% success rate in the NFL Draft. One good Draft last year and everyone is giddy. I hope we have an excellent Draft but the percentages of finding a better fit is that you can preview a FA by his NFL work resume.

Everyone assumes the whole Class form first to seventh round will make the Team, when in truth perhaps two will be playing at a high level three years from their first NFL game. There are a few good players in FA that have some pass rush skills this year. I hope Bob brings his check book.
DW Toys

The draft is about finding the players that fit your scheme the best. The less projecting the better!

If there is any luck in the draft, it is in measuring a kid's heart and desire to do whatever it takes to be the best and dreaded injuries, of course.

 

[VJCPatriot]

So which category does Spikes fall into?

Spikes takes prescription medication for ADD. He didn't clear it with the league ahead of time but it has now been cleared. That was a low blow and hardly accurate. You know he doesn't juice so don't smear his name for nothing. Was he dumb? Yes. Was he trying to get away with using a PED. Hell no.

Pass-Rushing Productivity: Who’s making the most of their opportunities? | ProFootballFocus.com

How many of you are shocked and want to change their opinion on Manny Lawson, raise your hands?

Please don't bring up made up stats by PFF. These are the same self-important blowhard geeks who convinced themselves that Brady doesn't deserve either the MVP or Offensive player of the year award.
Luckily people with actual voting power, selected Brady as the UNANIMOUS MVP this year, showing what a nobrainer pick it was. And a unanimous selection has NEVER happened before in the history of the award.

 

[WesWelker83]

the draft is about luck Thank you!!!!!This is my point about a 17% success rate in the NFL Draft. One good Draft last year and everyone is giddy. I hope we have an excellent Draft but the percentages of finding a better fit is that you can preview a FA by his NFL work resume.

Everyone assumes the whole Class form first to seventh round will make the Team, when in truth perhaps two will be playing at a high level three years from their first NFL game. There are a few good players in FA that have some pass rush skills this year. I hope Bob brings his check book.
DW Toys

I understand what you are saying about the 17% hit rate in the draft as you have mentioned how you came up with that many times over the years but the top franchises have much higher hit rates (Patriots, Colts, Steelers, Packers) than the rest of the league. Teams like Buffalo and St. Louis must be around 4%. These top four teams have won the 7 of the last 10 Super Bowls. Do you think its luck they draft well almost every year? Outside of Charles Woodson, Mike Vrabel, and Rodney Harrison the rest of these teams didn't have any major contributors who came via FA. I know the Pats also had Antowain Smith, Roman Phifer, Bryan Cox, Terrell Buckley, Otis Smith, Bobby Hamilton, Ted Washington and others that played a role on some of those championship teams but they were role players and outside of Smith none of them made a big impact. Free Agents are also always overpaid and most of them don't perform as well after they get paid (look at Colvin and Thomas in NE). Costly FA signings also kill your cap for years if the players end up sucking.

Its also a fact that Free Agency is overrated outside of a few outliers in the past 17 years! If Free Agency was as big as you think it is than the Redskins and Raiders would be in the Super Bowl every year.

 

[DW Toys]

I understand what you are saying about the 17% hit rate in the draft as you have mentioned how you came up with that many times over the years but the top franchises have much higher hit rates (Patriots, Colts, Steelers, Packers) than the rest of the league. Teams like Buffalo and St. Louis must be around 4%. These top four teams have won the 7 of the last 10 Super Bowls. Do you think its luck they draft well almost every year? Outside of Charles Woodson, Mike Vrabel, and Rodney Harrison the rest of these teams didn't have any major contributors who came via FA. I know the Pats also had Antowain Smith, Roman Phifer, Bryan Cox, Terrell Buckley, Otis Smith, Bobby Hamilton, Ted Washington and others that played a role on some of those championship teams but they were role players and outside of Smith none of them made a big impact. Free Agents are also always overpaid and most of them don't perform as well after they get paid (look at Colvin and Thomas in NE). Costly FA signings also kill your cap for years if the players end up sucking.

Its also a fact that Free Agency is overrated outside of a few outliers in the past 17 years! If Free Agency was as big as you think it is than the Redskins and Raiders would be in the Super Bowl every year.

Have to disagree. The 2007 Pats Team was the best and most fun season I have ever seen here. We lost by a fluke. Many strong trades and FAs on that Team as the 09 Saints. I believe you might say the Saints are pretty stout? I am not buying the Draft game as the only way. Not close. Take away last years Draft and dissect what you have the last five or six years and the Pats are way below 17%. You have to have a mix Cousin.

Those above you mentioned were many starters not just role players. Harrison, Vrabel, Moss, Dillion are all examples of good trades and FA pick ups. Woody wasn't too bad this year.

If you have an NFL ready player that is a proven commodity it makes sense you have to pay more. That is the trade off. What makes you think the percentage is as high for a 21 year old kid to come in and become a top NFL player instantly? One or two per year on any top NFL club maybe. How many rookies start for the Steelers? It's a multi-year process with no guarantee of success. I ask you this...Do you want to wait the NFL average of three years to see if we have a top tier OLB from the Draft and now TB is three years older? That happens most of the time. We lucked out with Mayo, McCourty and a few more. We missed a bunch too like Maroney, Jackson, O'Connell etc. etc. IT IS LUCK. I will say this, there are many on this forum who could have out Drafted the Pats in say 06.

The Redskins and Raiders have idiots for owners. You can't change stupid sometime.

DW Toys

 

[WesWelker83]

Have to disagree. The 2007 Pats Team was the best and most fun season I have ever seen here. We lost by a fluke. Many strong trades and FAs on that Team as the 09 Saints. I believe you might say the Saints are pretty stout? I am not buying the Draft game as the only way. Not close. Take away last years Draft and dissect what you have the last five or six years and the Pats are way below 17%. You have to have a mix Cousin.

Those above you mentioned were many starters not just role players. Harrison, Vrabel, Moss, Dillion are all examples of good trades and FA pick ups. Woody wasn't too bad this year.

If you have an NFL ready player that is a proven commodity it makes sense you have to pay more. That is the trade off. What makes you think the percentage is as high for a 21 year old kid to come in and become a top NFL player instantly? One or two per year on any top NFL club maybe. How many rookies start for the Steelers? It's a multi-year process with no guarantee of success. I ask you this...Do you want to wait the NFL average of three years to see if we have a top tier OLB from the Draft and now TB is three years older? That happens most of the time. We lucked out with Mayo, McCourty and a few more. We missed a bunch too like Maroney, Jackson, O'Connell etc. etc. IT IS LUCK. I will say this, there are many on this forum who could have out Drafted the Pats in say 06.

The Redskins and Raiders have idiots for owners. You can't change stupid sometime.

DW Toys

I understand what you are saying as the Saints had many bigtime contributors who they traded for or signed like Brees, Shockey, Vilma, and Sharper. I understand that you do need a combination of signings, trades, and draft picks to sustain success. However, the Steelers and Colts have 3 super bowls between them and 5 super bowl appearances in the last 10 years without doing anything but drafting well. The Pats 3 superbowls were a combination of mostly draft picks and cheap FA signings. The only players we have traded for are Dillon, Moss, Welker, and Derrick Burgess. If you look back all the players we discussed in free agency they were signed very cheaply except Colvin and Thomas who were both mediocre to bad here.

I really don't think GB, NE, PITT and INDY are getting lucky every year with these great draft picks they continually make. I also think thats 17% ratio is pure BS. Are you counting 7th, 6th, 5th, and 4th rounders in there? Players drafted in these rounds are developmental prospects and most of these guys aren't even expected to make an NFL roster. I also think organizations like St. Louis, Detroit, and Buffalo bring that number way down and those late rounds bring that number down as well. Mel Kiper ansd Mike Mayock have generally agreed that the likelihood a first round pick lives up to their draft grade is 50% in the first round and the percentage drops after every round. Look back at the Patriots, Colts, and Steelers recent first round drafting history. You won't see many misses. Since 2001 I think the only first round pick that Pats missed on was Maroney who clearly sucks. Watson and Graham are not busts and are still starting TEs in this league. Thats 9 picks and 8 hits (Seymour, Warren, Wilkfork, Graham, Watson, Mccourty, Mankins, and Mayo) which is a 88.9% rate. Since 1996 the Colts have drafted Manning, Edge, Harrison, Tarik Glenn, Rob Morris, Wayne, Freeney, Clark, Marlin Jackson, Addai, Anthony Gonzalez, Donald Brown, Jerry Hughes. Thats 13 draft picks and at a minimum 11 hits so far. I would say only Marlin Jackson and Jerry Hughes have been disappointments so far and Jackson still picked Tom Brady to go to the SB in 06. Eleven out of thirteen is a 84.6% hit rate. Starting in 1998 with Pittsburgh they have drafted in the first round: Faneca, Troy Edwards, Plaxico, Hampton, Kendall Simmons, Polamalu, Big Ben, Heath Miller, Holmes, Timmons, Mendenhall, Hood, and Pouncey. Thats 13 draft picks and 12 of those picks worked out with Troy Edwards being the only bust. Thats a 92.3% success rate.

As you can see the top franchises know how to draft in the first and second rounds. After that everything is a crapshoot. I truly think building through the draft is the best way to build a team and its been proven through history as well. Look at that Cowboys team in the 90s. Everyone was a draft pick except Deion Sanders. The 49ers in the 80s and Steelers teams in the 70s were all built through the draft.