Classy Bills Fans at it again

[Aqua4Ever04]

Just becuse you couldn't get laid in Buffalo doesn't mean it's that way from everyone. Newsflash: you're a d-bag no matter what city you live in.

I haven't really had a chance to talk to any Bills fans this off-season so I'll start with you.

What are your expectations for the coming season? Will the offense open up a little bit going from vanilla to explosive? If so, can Edwards handle it? Is Marcus Stroud the answer to your run defense woes?

Give me a brief season preview of the Bills through the eyes of a fan. Please.

 

[MarvLevy]

I haven't really had a chance to talk to any Bills fans this off-season so I'll start with you.

What are your expectations for the coming season? Will the offense open up a little bit going from vanilla to explosive? If so, can Edwards handle it? Is Marcus Stroud the answer to your run defense woes?

Give me a brief season preview of the Bills through the eyes of a fan. Please.

Glad to share and I'd like to think I'll be fairly reasonable. Looking back at last season, it was a miracle we were 7-9 and in the playoff hunt as long as we were. Statisically, our offense and defense were terrible and we had 15 guys on IR. With an easier schedule (on paper), a healthy team (knock on wood), and young guys who gained valuable experience last year, hopes are very high here.

Last year, we had pretty bad QB play. But then if you remember Edwards was a rookie, there were some solid moments. The guy defnitely carries himself like a pro and avoids sacks much better than JP. I like Losman but for some reason, the coaches never trusted him. They didn't even let him audible. However in his 2nd start against the Ravens, Edwars ran the no-huddle. If Edwards can be just decent and keep the chains moving with occasional shots to Evans and Hardy (Josh Reed was the worst #2 wr in the league, this should be a much improved unit.

As for the defense, a bag of poo on the d-line would been an improvement. Even if Stroud is only 50%, he will be our best all around DT sine Pat Williams. Schobel is a very underrated DE and it will nice to see him play with someone that the defense will respect. Add to that Paul Poz will be back and the addition of Mitchell (a solid if not amazing player), the run defense should be much improved. Our secondary has some holes but we have our starting FS (Ko Simpson back and the pick of McKelvin will mean that a guy who started last year will be a nickel back. McKelvin is also a great returner and St has been the strength of the team this year.

So all in all, people here are pumped. Almost every game is sold out. The division has improved and the AFC is tough, but I fully expect a playoff run. Also, we are one of the youngest teams in the league, so finally maybe the Bills' future is bright again. Hope this helps. :rocker:

 

[Aqua4Ever04]

Glad to share and I'd like to think I'll be fairly reasonable. Looking back at last season, it was a miracle we were 7-9 and in the playoff hunt as long as we were. Statisically, our offense and defense were terrible and we had 15 guys on IR. With an easier schedule (on paper), a healthy team (knock on wood), and young guys who gained valuable experience last year, hopes are very high here.

Last year, we had pretty bad QB play. But then if you remember Edwards was a rookie, there were some solid moments. The guy defnitely carries himself like a pro and avoids sacks much better than JP. I like Losman but for some reason, the coaches never trusted him. They didn't even let him audible. However in his 2nd start against the Ravens, Edwars ran the no-huddle. If Edwards can be just decent and keep the chains moving with occasional shots to Evans and Hardy (Josh Reed was the worst #2 wr in the league, this should be a much improved unit.

As for the defense, a bag of poo on the d-line would been an improvement. Even if Stroud is only 50%, he will be our best all around DT sine Pat Williams. Schobel is a very underrated DE and it will nice to see him play with someone that the defense will respect. Add to that Paul Poz will be back and the addition of Mitchell (a solid if not amazing player), the run defense should be much improved. Our secondary has some holes but we have our starting FS (Ko Simpson back and the pick of McKelvin will mean that a guy who started last year will be a nickel back. McKelvin is also a great returner and St has been the strength of the team this year.

So all in all, people here are pumped. Almost every game is sold out. The division has improved and the AFC is tough, but I fully expect a playoff run. Also, we are one of the youngest teams in the league, so finally maybe the Bills' future is bright again. Hope this helps. :rocker:

You seem to really "get it." It's semi-annoying when I hear Bills fans talk about how good they were last year when in reality, they were just finding ways to win, they reminded me of the 2006 Jets. Both teams ranked near the bottom in offense and defense but still found a way to win games.

I agree completely about your injuries, schedule, and somewhat poor quarterbacking. Edwards has been touted as something great but the offense was rather vanilla and half of his touchdowns came against a depleted Miami secondary.

I do think he can really progress and become an effeciant quarterback for you guys though. I really like what Trent Edwards is about. Smart, careful, incredible footabll I.Q; these are all things I value greatly in a quarterback. If he can develop his physical skills, he can become a pretty damn good QB.

I too think your front 7 is massively upgraded. Mitchell and a healthy Posluzney should help immensley and I think Angelo Crowell is vastly under rated.

The more I talk about it, the more the Bills worry me.

I think you guys are a team that could go either way. If they went 10-6 I wouldn't be surprised, but it also wouldn't shock me if they went 6-10.

 

[Aqua4Ever04]

Oh, and by the way, if you need a Dolphins site to go to, visit...

www.thephins.com

We have a bunch of Jets fans but almost no Bills fans. Same goes for Pats fans, we need some opposing fans there.

 

[MarvLevy]

You seem to really "get it." It's semi-annoying when I hear Bills fans talk about how good they were last year when in reality, they were just finding ways to win, they reminded me of the 2006 Jets. Both teams ranked near the bottom in offense and defense but still found a way to win games.

I agree completely about your injuries, schedule, and somewhat poor quarterbacking. Edwards has been touted as something great but the offense was rather vanilla and half of his touchdowns came against a depleted Miami secondary.

I do think he can really progress and become an effeciant quarterback for you guys though. I really like what Trent Edwards is about. Smart, careful, incredible footabll I.Q; these are all things I value greatly in a quarterback. If he can develop his physical skills, he can become a pretty damn good QB.

I too think your front 7 is massively upgraded. Mitchell and a healthy Posluzney should help immensley and I think Angelo Crowell is vastly under rated.

The more I talk about it, the more the Bills worry me.

I think you guys are a team that could go either way. If they went 10-6 I wouldn't be surprised, but it also wouldn't shock me if they went 6-10.

Very fair assessment and I agree. I lean towards the 10-6 side but we are banking on a young QB. I think Edwards has "it" (mentally and leadership-wise) than Losman was missing. But as Bills and Fin fan, we both have been waiting for a guy for a long time (man it would be nice to get lucky a 6th rounder ). But one thing is I beleive our defense will be at least top 15, if not higher. This is gonna be a very good group.

 

[Aqua4Ever04]

Very fair assessment and I agree. I lean towards the 10-6 side but we are banking on a young QB. I think Edwards has "it" (mentally and leadership-wise) than Losman was missing. But as Bills and Fin fan, we both have been waiting for a guy for a long time (man it would be nice to get lucky a 6th rounder ). But one thing is I beleive our defense will be at least top 15, if not higher. This is gonna be a very good group.

Kelly vs. Marino, those were the days. Hell, I almost yearn for the Fielder vs. Bledsoe or Rob Johnson days. :lol:

I hope and think Beck can be a formidable quarterback. He displays the characteristics I was talking about in Edwards (preperation, hard work, football IQ, accuracy) and I think each guy can be not so much a game manager and not a gun slinger, but a nice mix of both. I think the Bills and Dolphins will be the two teams battling it out for the division in a couple of years.

 

[stephens44]

That has to be the most cowardly argument I've ever heard in history. Let's see...denounce something or someone, list one or two reasons why and say that "anyone who disagrees with me must be delusional." Then when someone tries to defend said thing or person, you claim it just "proves your point."

Wikipedia?? Haha, don't make me laugh. The ultimate non-source.

So basically now you have no arguments except "Buffalo's weather sucks?" That's sophisticated.

I've got to say, upstater really took you to town. And he's not even a Bills fan.

Don't make you laugh.... No problem; Please take it upon YOURSELF to back up your accusation that Wiki's information is inaccurate. Point out a single significant inaccuracy.
I made a referenced statement, did you? Basically your argument is a non-argument. It amounts to nitpicking someone else's comments and is devoid of anything but a whiny opinion.
At least upstater has offered that Niagra Falls energy could help WNY, even though he provided no source it has some merit (if properly sourced, but is moot without proof).

So....further proof required??? (from wiki, please note the citations and refernces)

"Overall, employment in Buffalo has shifted as its population has declined and manufacturing has left. Buffalo's 2005 unemployment rate of 6.6% was 32% higher than New York State's 5.0% rate.[26] And from the fourth quarter of 2005 to the fourth quarter of 2006, Erie County had no net job growth, ranking it 271st among the 326 largest counties in the country.[27] Yet the area has recently seen an upswing in job growth as unemployment has dropped to only 4.9% in July 2007 from 5.2% in 2006 and 6.6% in 2005.[28] The area's manufacturing jobs have continued to show the largest losses in jobs with over 17,000 fewer than at the start of 2006. Yet other sectors of the economy have outdistanced manufacturing and are seeing large increases. Educational and health services added over 30,400 jobs in 2006 and over 20,500 jobs have been added in the professional and business (mostly finance) arena.[29]

According to the New York State Department of Labor:[30]"


Those health services and education jobs are provided by the state. The state continues to massively support Buffalo like no other part of NY. That is why UB and Buf State co-exist a few miles from each other. That is why UB is so much larger that any other SUNY school, etc.
Quite simply, because the city would be in dire straits without the aid. The city grew out of proportion with the means to support it long term in regard to commerce and industry.

Also, new jobs doesn't in any way mean that the "new" salary is equal to the one that left. Service industry jobs pay considerably less than skilled manufacturing jobs.

"The loss of traditional jobs in manufacturing, rapid suburbanization and high costs of labor have led to economic decline, making Buffalo one of the poorest amongst U.S. cities with populations of more than 250,000 people. An estimated 30% of Buffalo residents live below the poverty line, second only to Detroit.[34] Buffalo's median household income of $27,850 is third-lowest among large cities, behind only Miami and Cleveland; however the median household income for the metropolitan area is $57,000.[35]"

 

[stephens44]

"This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read. A city receives state revenue. Big deal. So does Manhattan, much more per capita than Buffalo does. That's a fact. That makes New York an economic headcase, in your book, right?"
Well actually no.... Buffalo recieves STATE AID to make up for the SHORTFALL in its own tax revenue. Buffalo is recieving AIM, Aid and Incentives to Municipalities (AIM): "Total Aid and Incentives for Municipalities (AIM) funding for City of Buffalo will increase from $155.0 million in 2007-08 to $171.7 million". NYC's AIM? "The Enacted Budget provides $246 million in AIM aid to New York City" for 2007.
Isnt NYC's population in excess of 8 million and Buffalo's 258,000? So tell me, what is your definition of per capita?

"Trust me, people would LOVE for Buffalo to cut ties with New York, because the federally guaranteed energy resources up here would make the region into a goldmine, instead of having Albany take it and dole it out to people in the Capital Region, or else sell it fund public housing in Manhattan. We're talking hundreds of millions of dollars there. Not to mentino onerous tax laws that are ONLY appropriate for Manhattan, yet the rest of the state has to abide by them."

Provide a source if you would please.... (sounds like baseless supposition to me). What is the NYPA going to do, sell the excess energy that WNY doesn't use and send everyone a check? WNY can be socialist but the rest of the country has to compete in a normal market economy? Niagra Falls appears to be the only economically viable asset in WNY by your statements.

And oh by the way.... Just how much revenue do you think NY Harbor and Boston Harbor generate in comparison to Niagra Falls??? lol :bricks:

"Your ignorance of Buffalo is easily proven. You ridicule me for saying Buffalo's architecture takes a back seat to none of these northeastern cities. The fact is, it doesn't.

I'm not the only one who says so:"


At no point does your article say anything in agreement that Buffalo's architecture rivals NYC's. You will not find that anywhere actually because the reality is completely different. I'd say your also in the lead for dumbest post, Buffalo better architecture than NYC??? lol (oooookay...)

"Buffalo was a huge boomtown, one of the richest in the United States, at the turn of the last century when the first hydropower electric projects started here. That's the exact period that coincided with America's greatest public planning and architectural movements, as Frank Lloyd Wright spent more time here than anywhere else outside Chicago. Frederick Law Olmstead called it the best planned city in the world, with parkspace, waterfront, and roads and neighborhoods. Arts & Crafts architecture was huge here at the time, HH Richardson, it goes on and on. The other cities I listed can't beat Buffalo in this. It's that simple."

Not really that simple.... NYC is 200 years older than Buffalo and has been prosperous is ENTIRE existance, not just a "flash in the pan". Does Buffalo have anything comparable to the Empire State Building, Grand Central Station, Brooklyn Bridge or Manhatten as whole for that matter. Ditto for Boston (Catherdrals, Downtown, Harvard, Cambridge, etc..)

"And I've lived in all of those cities." In windowless hotels???

"Most of the Patriots fans here will tell you that they have a great time at Buffalo games with no one getting into any trouble at them. Do you realize how many people on this website travel up to Buffalo for games? I see Murphy's crew there every single year. No one has the sour experience you do (I doubt you even go to Pats-Buffalo games)."

I have great times at Bills games, not just when the Pats came to town. I went to the AFC Championship when Montana/Allen/Neil Smith/Derrick Thomas were playing (last minute, since tcikets were available right up until kick off because Buffalo didnt sell out until a radio station bought the last 1500 tickets to lift the NFL imposed TV blackout-look it up).
That doesn't change the demographic of Bills fans from low income, cheap beer guzzling morons (been there, seen it, pics available on google images).

"Of course I acknowledged Buffalo is economically depressed." Hooray for you, all that is obvious is not completely missed

"But it's moving up now, a lot of people have moved into the city'
how many? High fuel prices, cheap houses and mass transit mean anything to you? Necessity mean anything?

"it's gentrified" Yes, this is common in low income areas....:bricks:

"there are lots of new restaurants, clubs, theaters, things to do. The waterfront is rebuilt with parks and boardwalks. Like most American cities, it has improved hugely in the last decade. Just as Boston has. I'm old enough to remember when the Pour House on Newbury in Boston was a tough biker bar that was dangerous, not some yuppified Armani den full of neon lights. City's change, you have to keep an open mind. I moved here from Providence (after living in Boston) and I don't regret it one bit. Great restaurants, pro sports, great parks, access to the water and great natural areas for hiking nearby, lakes, wineries, a vibrant arts community, and best of all affordable housing that makes all my friends envious when they visit us. Quite simply, the houses here are amazing." (amazingly cheap)

 

[upstater1]

Don't make you laugh.... No problem; Please take it upon YOURSELF to back up your accusation that Wiki's information is inaccurate. Point out a single significant inaccuracy.
I made a referenced statement, did you? Basically your argument is a non-argument. It amounts to nitpicking someone else's comments and is devoid of anything but a whiny opinion.
At least upstater has offered that Niagra Falls energy could help WNY, even though he provided no source it has some merit (if properly sourced, but is moot without proof).

So....further proof required??? (from wiki, please note the citations and refernces)

"Overall, employment in Buffalo has shifted as its population has declined and manufacturing has left. Buffalo's 2005 unemployment rate of 6.6% was 32% higher than New York State's 5.0% rate.[26] And from the fourth quarter of 2005 to the fourth quarter of 2006, Erie County had no net job growth, ranking it 271st among the 326 largest counties in the country.[27] Yet the area has recently seen an upswing in job growth as unemployment has dropped to only 4.9% in July 2007 from 5.2% in 2006 and 6.6% in 2005.[28] The area's manufacturing jobs have continued to show the largest losses in jobs with over 17,000 fewer than at the start of 2006. Yet other sectors of the economy have outdistanced manufacturing and are seeing large increases. Educational and health services added over 30,400 jobs in 2006 and over 20,500 jobs have been added in the professional and business (mostly finance) arena.[29]

According to the New York State Department of Labor:[30]"


Those health services and education jobs are provided by the state. The state continues to massively support Buffalo like no other part of NY. That is why UB and Buf State co-exist a few miles from each other. That is why UB is so much larger that any other SUNY school, etc.
Quite simply, because the city would be in dire straits without the aid. The city grew out of proportion with the means to support it long term in regard to commerce and industry.

Also, new jobs doesn't in any way mean that the "new" salary is equal to the one that left. Service industry jobs pay considerably less than skilled manufacturing jobs.

"The loss of traditional jobs in manufacturing, rapid suburbanization and high costs of labor have led to economic decline, making Buffalo one of the poorest amongst U.S. cities with populations of more than 250,000 people. An estimated 30% of Buffalo residents live below the poverty line, second only to Detroit.[34] Buffalo's median household income of $27,850 is third-lowest among large cities, behind only Miami and Cleveland; however the median household income for the metropolitan area is $57,000.[35]"

You got the quote right, but you made the exact wrong deductions.

Health and education job increases are not being provided by the state. This is a fact.

The hires are all in the private sector biotech industry which is moving to Buffalo and becoming the biggest employer in town. Check out Roswell, Buffalo. The campus is massive and it now dwarfs UB.

(Just as some background on the fight over Niagara Power which either funds companies in Albany or else funds public housing in NYC: http://www.buffalonews.com/149/story/370797.html

and even better this story which shows how politics is done in NY State: http://cnse.albany.edu/News/index.cfm?step=show_detail&NewsID=1012)

As for UB, the state cut funding for the school by $100 million dollars, and yet UB is building out. Where is it getting the money? The school has become a research powerhouse recently--although I suspect the cuts are going to somewhat curtail its rapid growth. Once Wall Street firms up, you can expect that the state will give back that $100 million as Spitzer promised.

Regardless, the point is, UB has LESS public money than it used to have, but is hiring more. As for local secondary schools, they have fired teachers, not added.

As for service jobs versus industry, biotech jobs and faculty jobs pay well.

The evidence is in downtown Buffalo which is livelier than it ever was (according to the locals, anyway--I got here in 2004 when I came on a temporary contract after living in providence, and I really liked the city and decided to stay). Is it poor? Depressed? No doubt. But all in all, very livable. The middle class and affluent people have not fled the city (as has happened in so many other poor cities) and the town has everything a big city has, art galleries, pro sports, restaurants, nightlife, theater, etc. I can't thnk of one thing that's missing here, actually. I never presented it as paradise. It's not. I did present it as an architectural jewel. It is. I'm surprised that someone that lived off of Elmwood didn't recognize this.

 

[upstater1]

"This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read. A city receives state revenue. Big deal. So does Manhattan, much more per capita than Buffalo does. That's a fact. That makes New York an economic headcase, in your book, right?"
Well actually no.... Buffalo recieves STATE AID to make up for the SHORTFALL in its own tax revenue. Buffalo is recieving AIM, Aid and Incentives to Municipalities (AIM): "Total Aid and Incentives for Municipalities (AIM) funding for City of Buffalo will increase from $155.0 million in 2007-08 to $171.7 million". NYC's AIM? "The Enacted Budget provides $246 million in AIM aid to New York City" for 2007.
Isnt NYC's population in excess of 8 million and Buffalo's 258,000? So tell me, what is your definition of per capita?

You have to take EVERY revenue stream into account. Not just aid. NY's bureaucracy is labyrinthine. For instance, who runs New York City Public Housing? Interestingly enough, it falls under the Power Authority's jurisdiction, and there you have a massive aid transfer into the city. Who subsidizes the cheap cost of electric in NYC? The rest of the state. It's not so easy as looking at the budget and determining aid for schools, etc. Especially when you're looking at just the CITY of Buffalo and not Erie County. Read the article I just linked to in my earlier post that shows how money is slopped around in this state.

"Trust me, people would LOVE for Buffalo to cut ties with New York, because the federally guaranteed energy resources up here would make the region into a goldmine, instead of having Albany take it and dole it out to people in the Capital Region, or else sell it fund public housing in Manhattan. We're talking hundreds of millions of dollars there. Not to mentino onerous tax laws that are ONLY appropriate for Manhattan, yet the rest of the state has to abide by them."

Provide a source if you would please.... (sounds like baseless supposition to me). What is the NYPA going to do, sell the excess energy that WNY doesn't use and send everyone a check? WNY can be socialist but the rest of the country has to compete in a normal market economy? Niagra Falls appears to be the only economically viable asset in WNY by your statements.

It's the law!! WNY gets 1/3rd of that energy for local industry. But the problem has always been that politicians elsewhere play games. I provided the link on this issue in the article above. Take Alcoa in Watertown. They just signed a 50 year free energy agreement. The net total investment from WNY per job is going to be $1.2 million per job at Alcoa. Whereas the guidelines call for a max total state investment of $50,000 per job. This is the sort of thing NY pols love: pork. As for free energy on the open market, that's dreamland. Natural resources all over the United States are tied by Federal Law to their states and communities, while the same federal laws also require them to be shared (hence, WNY exports energy and subsidizes it for Ohio and other states). Every so often, the long term laws are due to expire, and the state must renegotiate it with its constituents, or else the resource issue is taken up in congress, and then it really is a free market free for all. That's why these negotiations never make it to the free market stage and why there's a lot of horse-trading. It costs a community quite a bit to run a power authority, by the way. For instance, the boom lowered into the river every Fall backs up ice which acts as a freezer for the community, lowering the temps by 10 degrees and causing heating bills to rise, which takes a huge chunk of dough out of the community. Have you ever walked by the Niagara river in downtown Buffalo? You may have noticed a precipitous temperature drop. These are precisely the sort of reasons why host communities get first dibs on resources, typically.

As for saying it's the only asset in WNY: it's practically the only asset in the entire state and region. The most freshwater in the entire world.

And oh by the way.... Just how much revenue do you think NY Harbor and Boston Harbor generate in comparison to Niagra Falls??? lol :bricks:

"Your ignorance of Buffalo is easily proven. You ridicule me for saying Buffalo's architecture takes a back seat to none of these northeastern cities. The fact is, it doesn't.

I'm not the only one who says so:"

Yes, you are. Show me another who says it. I provided you with an article that shows you how well Buffalo's architecture is regarded. Show me one other person other than you who think this. Just one.[/COLOR

"Buffalo was a huge boomtown, one of the richest in the United States, at the turn of the last century when the first hydropower electric projects started here. That's the exact period that coincided with America's greatest public planning and architectural movements, as Frank Lloyd Wright spent more time here than anywhere else outside Chicago. Frederick Law Olmstead called it the best planned city in the world, with parkspace, waterfront, and roads and neighborhoods. Arts & Crafts architecture was huge here at the time, HH Richardson, it goes on and on. The other cities I listed can't beat Buffalo in this. It's that simple."


how many? High fuel prices, cheap houses and mass transit mean anything to you? Necessity mean anything?

Fuel prices have gne up in the last several months. You think people have abandoned their suburbs and moved into buffalo in the last several months? Bizarre thinking. It's happened for the better part of a decade.

"it's gentrified" Yes, this is common in low income areas....:bricks:

"there are lots of new restaurants, clubs, theaters, things to do. The waterfront is rebuilt with parks and boardwalks. Like most American cities, it has improved hugely in the last decade. Just as Boston has. I'm old enough to remember when the Pour House on Newbury in Boston was a tough biker bar that was dangerous, not some yuppified Armani den full of neon lights. City's change, you have to keep an open mind. I moved here from Providence (after living in Boston) and I don't regret it one bit. Great restaurants, pro sports, great parks, access to the water and great natural areas for hiking nearby, lakes, wineries, a vibrant arts community, and best of all affordable housing that makes all my friends envious when they visit us. Quite simply, the houses here are amazing." (amazingly cheap)

And what is wrong with amazingly cheap?

Here, a middle class family could buy a manse. You find something wrong with that?

Go on living in your cubbyhole.

The thing I appreciate about Buffalo is that it's small enough that regular everyday people can do something about preserving the place, from the 20 somethings that pooled their money together (32 of them) and bought a mansion that's run as a cooperative, to the people that run a coop, to musicians like Ani DiFranco who not only redid a Cathedral as an arts and performance showplace, but she put $1 million of her money into building a boathouse from Frank Lloyd Wright's blueprints.

 

[IcyPatriot]

How can anyone pick on the Bills or their fans?

4 Super Bowls with the Cinderella trophy.

Only the most loyal of fan could be a Bills fan.

I think they will have a great season this year, and they deserve it.
As long as they remain below us ... it's all good.

 

[stephens44]

And what is wrong with amazingly cheap?

Here, a middle class family could buy a manse. You find something wrong with that?

Go on living in your cubbyhole.

The thing I appreciate about Buffalo is that it's small enough that regular everyday people can do something about preserving the place, from the 20 somethings that pooled their money together (32 of them) and bought a mansion that's run as a cooperative, to the people that run a coop, to musicians like Ani DiFranco who not only redid a Cathedral as an arts and performance showplace, but she put $1 million of her money into building a boathouse from Frank Lloyd Wright's blueprints.

Fair enough.... (you actually make me want to visit :rocker

Oh, btw... I don't live in a cubbyhole. I like my space and clean air more than what any city has to offer, I live just outside Saratoga Springs (perhaps that sheds light on why I don't think much of cities in general).

 

[Double G]

"You seem to really "get it." It's semi-annoying when I hear Bills fans talk about how good they were last year when in reality, they were just finding ways to win, they reminded me of ......................"

You should have ended this with "the 2005 Miami Dolphins". You know, the team you thought had a legit shot at winning the AFC East in 2006 after that rousing 9-7 season capped off by the last second victory over the Patriot fifth stringers.

Bills fans who talk about how good their team was when it fact it was not are no more annoying than Doofin fans who did the same thing in 2006 (and they have been proven to be a flash in the pan based on their record since)...........

 

[upstater1]

Fair enough.... (you actually make me want to visit :rocker

Oh, btw... I don't live in a cubbyhole. I like my space and clean air more than what any city has to offer, I live just outside Saratoga Springs (perhaps that sheds light on why I don't think much of cities in general).

Gawd, Joe Bruno piled the billions into your area, and you guys are reaping the rewards. BTW, I lived in downtown Troy as well (by choice, my job was at the capital) and I made it up to Saratoga quite a bit.

 

[upstater1]

Hey Stephens, check this 15 minute clip on Buffalo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTclUmYQMYQ

Granted, it comes from Al Jazeera, but it captures the reality of Buffalo pretty well.

Incredible poverty with a tough crew of citizens trying to revive the place.

Both warts and bright spots are addressed.

Then again, the producer tries to play gotcha with the mayor by proving that $17 million of the $4.5 billion invested in construction projects in the city in recent years is actually demolition costs. Big deal, $17m is a drop in the bucket when we're talking $4.5b.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Watch out Bills fans...the New England Patriots are only 3 more SB debacles away from tying your record!

 

[Brandon]

The Bills organization is a joke. Ralph Wilson is clearly setting the fans up for a move to Toronto. It's going to be a Cleveland Browns all over again. Yet, these classless fans(Who really have nothing better to do) continue to disrespect our organization, players and its fans. I saw a few weeks ago on another Bills message board that they were wishing that "Tom Brady was on the bike with Ben Roethlesberger" and how "I wish Bruschis heart acts up when we kick them in there mouth next year"

It's classless and disgusting.

 

[T-Bone]

The Bills organization is a joke. Ralph Wilson is clearly setting the fans up for a move to Toronto. It's going to be a Cleveland Browns all over again. Yet, these classless fans(Who really have nothing better to do) continue to disrespect our organization, players and its fans. I saw a few weeks ago on another Bills message board that they were wishing that "Tom Brady was on the bike with Ben Roethlesberger" and how "I wish Bruschis heart acts up when we kick them in there mouth next year"

It's classless and disgusting.

What I find very funny about the Toronto situation is how they are psychological conditioning Bills Fans to accept the team's eventual move to Toronto. First its a couple of games, then it is half the games, then it is all the games, and the mindset will be they will still be the Buffalo Bills we just have to go farther to see them.

I asked a Bills fan at work who was giving this line, how come most Bills Fans are Yankee fans? Shouldn't they be Blue Jay fans using the logic of why they are supporting the Bills playing home games in Toronto? No answer other than, you guys are cheaters. The answer most non Patriot fans resort to.

 

[upstater1]

What I find very funny about the Toronto situation is how they are psychological conditioning Bills Fans to accept the team's eventual move to Toronto. First its a couple of games, then it is half the games, then it is all the games, and the mindset will be they will still be the Buffalo Bills we just have to go farther to see them.

I asked a Bills fan at work who was giving this line, how come most Bills Fans are Yankee fans? Shouldn't they be Blue Jay fans using the logic of why they are supporting the Bills playing home games in Toronto? No answer other than, you guys are cheaters. The answer most non Patriot fans resort to.

I can't imagine they'll root for Toronto. They already did this poll here, and it was: if the Bills leave, sayonara.

There's no conditioning to speak of. It's a pure money move. Buffalo is top 10 in attendance for many years in the NFL, but bottom 10 in total revenues.

This year they raised ticket prices by 15% and sold out every game except the Patriots game. I'd venture to say that this is solely because of the one game in Toronto which made tickets scarce. Now the Bills have an extra 15% in revenue for each home game from higher ticket sales and selling out, and Rogers in Canada is cutting Wilson a $10 million check for that home game. This just may push Buffalo into the middle tier for revenue in the NFL, which would make them a lot more viable in this region.

On the other hand, there are two factors at play. One, Buffalo has a rather big season ticket base in Ontario (about 15%). So they could just as easily make the trip north to Toronto. One big hold on that figure though is that we have new border rules with new licenses being required, and that already is driving the Ontario season ticket base lower.

I'll say this again: Wilson will sell to the highest bidder, but if they leave, then New York state will be left without a NFL football team, and that will NOT sit well with the state's powerful congressional delegation. Income taxes on a pro football team are pretty high in this state. If the salary cap is at $125 million, and then the coaches and staff (and team as private entity) earn another $125 million, you toss in the highest state taxes in the country, and suddenly the state is out $45 million a year in taxes. Wilson will sell to the highest bidder but if the Bills right the ship, I guarantee you the NFL will block new ownership from moving them to LA. The owners want that franchise fee there. it will be well over $1 million dollars. You'll have to convince the owners of the other teams to voluntarily relinquish the $40 million payday that's headed their way.

So, when you look around, Toronto may indeed be the only viable city for the Bills other than Buffalo.

But that makes me wonder about Jacksonville, Cincinnati, the Oakland Raiders, and New Orleans. Those 4 teams--you can argue--are as bad off as Buffalo. Jax and Cincy suffer from the same small market problems as Buffalo while Oakland has a huge problem with the city, and New Orleans is shrinking.

 

[dapatshouldawon]

I think that the Bills have some the best fans in the league......The are one the few blue collar teams left.......