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Christianity in Politics - Compare & Contrast

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Mrs.PatsFanInVa, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Harry's protests in his thread notwithstanding - the Republicans seem hell-bent on including religion in a presidential platform.

    And so it begins:

    From Obama's (the suspect Christian) speech at the National Prayer Day Breakfast.

    Referring to his call for the wealthy, including him, to pay more taxes, Mr. Obama said,
    Referring to his calls for the middle class to have a “fair shot” at economic opportunity, the president said,
    And Mr. Obama said Wall Street needed play by the same rules as Main Street because,
    At Prayer Breakfast, Obama Ties Economic Message to Christian Values - NYTimes.com

    Mitt Romney:

    Romney's 'Poor' Remark Resonates - NYTimes.com

    Except, that "safety net?" Most of Romney's campaign promises threaten to remove most of it....medicare, medicaid, food stamps, Obamacare, SS, Planned Parenthood....and his "tax plan" raises taxes on the poorest of the poor and lowers them for the richest of the rich.

    Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

    Who would Jesus vote for?
     
  2. Drewski

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    Anyone who claims they know only proves how full of it they are.
     
  3. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Really? You think so?

    Maybe a better question to Christians would be this:

    Based upon your own Christianity, your own knowledge of the bible, and gven an inherent belief that Jesus would want you to do the right thing - who do you think Jesus would want you to vote for?

    I realize no one can ever know what Jesus would do or what God or Allah or Buddha would do - but I also realise that the basis for faith was given to us (to those who believe in the New Testament, the Old Testament the Koran or any other religious written word) by whatever God we believe in by way of ancient and often translated text.

    Those of us who were brought up in a religious atmosphere or family, those of us who found it later on our own - we all have some idea of what's right and what's wrong based upon what we've heard, read and been taught.

    Based upon those things, it's probably safe to assume we each have an idea of whose ideas we'd be expected to support and which candidate best follows the long-ago given pathway to sanctity and salvation - that is, if we believe God expects anything of us at all.
     
  4. Harry Boy

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    I'm praying for the rain in California
    So the grapes will grow and they can make more wine
    I'm sitting in a Honky in Chicago
    With a broken heart and a women on my mind

    Mafia Godfather Praying
    "dear lord jesus please let me kill that dirty f-cking son of a b!tch"
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  5. Drewski

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    Well my very simply point is this. People have their faiths, and I fully support their personal beliefs to highest order possible.

    But what I have an issue with is people (mere mortals if you will) claiming to know what a divine being would think/feel/do/vote for etc etc etc.

    "God" may certainly speak to someone or provide guidance to someone, I certainly have no proof that that doesn't happen. But I have a hard time hearing someone say "Well Jesus would vote for [insert politican's name here]" and not immediately thinking to myself "wow, that person has fallen off the reservation".

    Who are we to "know" what Jesus/"the Messiah"/the 12th Iman etc would do? Doesn't their "divineness" basically call to question the mere idea that a mortal would know what they would do, without a mortal specifically talking to said religious figure?

    I was raised Catholic, but no longer practice. I am a spiritual person, but not religious. I don't subscribe to the "Christian" view of right and wrong. Jesus (in my case) didn't teach the young version of me right and wrong. I didnt learn right and wrong from the Bible. Something (I call it a Universal Creator others might call it "God") instilled those morals into the fabric of my being.

    I need something tangible to allow me to believe in it. The vastness of space, and the natural order of things (galaxies, stars, space, natural resources, DNA, animals etc etc etc) tells me that there is something that created all of this, as "chance" just cant account for it all. But that is where my "God" ends. Do I believe that religious figures existed in the flesh? Sure, there seems to be proof that Jesus/Mohammad/Buddha etc did live. But I have no proof that they were the chosen ones beyond what a story, passed down through time, which could or couldn't have been altered to fit one groups ideas on what that person was or believed in, "tells" me.

    EDIT: Sorry all!! I realize my response is religious centric and thus not meant to be in this form per say. In short (bringing in concisely back to Politics) I don't think humans can say with any certainty who Jesus would vote for. For a person to say They know what Jesus would do just seems crazy to me.

    Mods if if this post needs to be moved thats fine. I dont know the forums rules on where the line is on Religious Forum/Political Forum.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  6. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    I think the question is, would any of us vote for Jesus?

    Also, Jesus would be responsible enough to understand we have to stay within our budget.
     
  7. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    As I said in my earlier post to you....I worded it poorly.

    Better question: What do you think God/Jesus would want you to do?

    Most religions have guidelines for their believers to follow....I don't think it's an out of line expectation that a religious person would have some idea of what those guidelines are or what candidate best fullfills them.

    For example: Most Christians feel God considers abortion is wrong, therefore they believe "God" would want them to support only candidates who favor abolishing abortion.

    Where the "sticky" comes in is what does "God" consider right. Obviously, if you read the New Testament, (or the Old) we are told that "God" considers it right to feed the hungry, minister to the sick, give of our own wealth to those less wealthy, protect the weakm and he has given us examples to follow and admonished us to go forth and do just that......and yet, when a politician advocates cutting all of those people loose, many self-professed Christians don't seem to mind - in fact they applaud.

    Is it that much easier to know what's wrong than it is to do what's right?
     
  8. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    No problem from me...I think it's an excellent post and very relevant to our discussion.

    It made me realize just how much we need to keep religion out of politics. I'll also add that I do believe our founding fathers had some devine guidance. Our system is awesome...to this day it continues to amaze me. I guess what dissapoints is the evolution (lack of) of the human spirit within our politics.
     
  9. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    "no one walking this earth knows what is truly rightheous"
     
  10. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Apparently no one knows how to spell it, either.
     
  11. Drewski

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    Mrs. I agree with you in that certain candidates have views which followers of a given religion would support (or not) based on what their religious "values" tell them is right or wrong (abortion in your example).

    To that point, that is why I find it ironic that My Pet Newt is considered a "conservative" candidate/has a conservative following. Most of his life as been lived in stark contrast to the teachings the lineage conservatives tend to follow.

    You could take the 10 Commandments (what is right and wrong to both Christians and Jews) and cross reference them against any candidate and find enough reason to not support them if that is "your" thing; and for some people that is how they view their candidates.

    That being said for a person to say "This is what Jesus would do" in a matter of fact way just doesn't fly with my understanding of how things work. Who is anyone to say definitively what their savior would do? The cynic in me says throughout history we have examples of people who seek out revenge/war/conquest in the name of "what of their god would do/told them to do". "God" doesn't need mortals to speak for it; especially in cases where the action goes against what their "God"/savior taught. To me that is a form of perversion...a person perverting what their god would do or say to benefit/support the persons cause.

    In the past there was the Spanish Inquisition, European Colonization in the name of God (South America/Asia/Africa), American expansion into the American West (Manifest Destiny). The Holocaust certainly had a religious theme to it. Nowadays the culprit is the fundamental interpretation that the Koran tells Muslims to kill non believers. All of these events/periods were at least partially a result of what one person or group said "God would do/told us to do".
     
  12. Real World

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    Imagine if a republican made Obama's comments. The Mrs' would be all over him or her. Instead, we're asked who Jesus would vote for, as if to imply Jesus would vote for Obama. :rolleyes:

    Obama's comments are the exact type that most liberals have with republican candidates.

    I think a candidates faith is fine. I think a candidate being personally religious, or a person of faith, is a-ok. Where I have an issue, and always have, is where a candidate or politician begins to impose that faith through policy. I think Jesus' words are incredibly wonderful to live by. I just don't think the federal governments place is to live by Jesus' words.

    BTW, Romney's point, although not delivered a politically smooth as he certainly wished, was 1,000% spot on. The very rich, and the very poor are insulated from times like these. The very rich have enough money to ride the wave, while the very poor are embedded in programs that provide them with their subsidized housing, fuel assistance, welfare checks, food stamps, WIC, etc. The extreme end of the spectrum don't feel the brunt of an economic downturn the way the people in the middle do. It's the 80-90% that range in between the very rich to very poor that suffer the most when the economy tanks. Those people lose their jobs, lose their homes, earn less, get taxed/fee'd more, and get squeezed everywhere from the grocery store, to the gas pump, right on down to the vendors they use. Those are absolutely the people that need the most attention right now. When those people are doing well, so does everybody else.
     
  13. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    As I've pointed out twice now...I worded the question poorly.

    However, tell me the last time you heard a Republican candidate make a comment like the following - or if you can imagine any Republican saying such things at all.

    or this:

    or this:


    National Prayer Breakfast: President Obama’s speech transcript - The Washington Post

    I don't know what this means. I see nothing "Republican-like" in any of Obama's comments.

    Right....until you remember that Romney has promised to abollsh or severely cut all of those "poor people" programs as soon as he's elected as well as to change the tax structure so that the very poorest will be paying more while the very richest will be paying less.
     
  14. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    Damn...and someone was kind enough to let me know that a while ago and I forgot.

    Fixed!
     
  15. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    I would take the leap to state there is no doubt our first priority should be helping our middle class citizens. I don't think one could argue otherwise.

    If we don't, then thousands of middle class Americans will join the ranks of the poor. Our nation benefits more by helping the middle class as well. The better off the middle class, the more chance a poor citizen can join the middle class...that's the way our economy works.

    I've been saying a for a long time that the middle class is the most important group of Americans. That is not say that on an individual basis, one person is more important than another. It just means that the middle class is the key to making everything work.

    Why? Because it's the largest group by far. The better off they are, the more money they spend. And the more money they spend, the more opportunities there are for everyone.

    That's why!
     
  16. PatsFan24

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    Keep religion out of politics! In fact it would be best if people in all ways of life keep their religion to themselves. It is sickening how people use the name of God as a way to justify treating people badly.
     
  17. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    What kind of "help" do we need?
     
  18. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    I'll allow you to figure that one out...cuz I know you're wicked smaht!;)
     
  19. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    I consider myself "middle class," and not only can I not think of a thing I need help with I don't think that helping someone else less fortunate would hurt me, either.

    Like anything, it would be "nice" if I had more money - but it's not a necessity and it's certainly not going to hurt me if I don't get it. And if they suddenly took away some small portion, well, that wouldn't hurt me, either. I'd get used to it. Maybe I'd have to give up a casino trip or that new jacket or only spend one week instead of two at Nags Head - but if you had taken a same small portion percentage away from me when I was "poor," that would have made the difference between eating or putting gas in the car so I could get to work.

    It's all relative, PR.

    What do you need the government to do for you that they're not already doing to keep your middle class status safe?
     
  20. PatriotsReign

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    #18 Jersey

    It's certainly not about me or my needs MrsP. The fact is, helping the middle class will do the most to get our economy going again. I'm not saying to walk away from the poor or even do less.

    As a historical fact, there are fewer (as a percent of total) poor when the middle class prospers. Do you believe the middle is prospering now?

    You don't have to worry about the federal gov't taking more money from you. They wouldn't be foolish enough to take more from the middle class when they know it would have a negative impact upon our economy.

    But looking at the middle historically, it's in the worst shape since the 1970's.

    Middle-Class Areas Shrink as Income Gap Grows, New Report Finds

    "The findings show a changed map of prosperity in the United States over the past four decades, with larger patches of affluence and poverty and a shrinking middle.

    In 2007, the last year captured by the data, 44 percent of families lived in neighborhoods the study defined as middle-income, down from 65 percent of families in 1970. At the same time, a third of American families lived in areas of either affluence or poverty, up from just 15 percent of families in 1970."


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/16/us/middle-class-areas-shrink-as-income-gap-grows-report-finds.html

    Keep in mind that the last year of the above study was 2007...the last year our economy was doing well.
     

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