Chris Carter on Mike & Mike talking Moss

[goz421]

This is a stupid argument. Nothing matters except winning. Who cares about numbers. Brady has been to 4 superbowls and many afc championships without Moss. How has Moss done in that category without Brady? The Quarterback is the most important position in football regardless. There are many great recievers.

 

[tombonneau]

I posted something like this, after the SB loss, and my feelings are similar on the subject.
Iirc, someone commented that Moss did address it in a post game interview, and evidently regretted it.
It still sucks to think that Tyree's play will undoubtedly go down as one of the greatest in SB history, and Moss didn't make an effort to come down with that ball.

It was a regrettable play, but to say Moss didn't give the necessary effort is silly. He merely misjudged the ball. I highly doubt he didn't want to catch that ball with every ounce of his being.

I swear, with Moss it's like people are hearkening back to Brady's Body Language from 2006. The guy looks and plays at a different speed. It's not a lack of desire.

To me he showed the same desire & effort on that play as he did on his first Pats TD when he blew by three Jet defenders.

 

[Deus Irae]

Did we have identifiable difference makers heading into 2001, 2003 or 2004 on offense, beyond Brady that is...

It doesn't matter, since that wasn't his point.

We don't know what Randy was truly amenable to doing, either. The word has long been he is not a precision route runner and doesn't especially like to go across the middle, and one of the few times he did he got whacked pretty good in the mouth to the point he had to sit out a series to shake it off. Had he been seriously hurt there I would bet there would have been endless criticism from talking heads and fans for not using him properly and it costing a season.

Is your contention here that Moss refused to go in motion because he preferred getting mauled at the line to having to move a little bit pre-snap?

I just hope Carter is not in fact echoing a lament he heard from a friend, because that would be excuse making - which is just not a fit in this system. If you give a guy a $30M deal I would hope it includes his behaving himself through tough times, and so far the toughest times we've asked Randy to behave through consists of losing a SB in the closing minutes.

Carter was saying what others have been thinking and/or saying.

 

[patsfan-1982]

Basically saying the Patriots did not use Moss properly in 2007. Yeah, that's what he said! Unreal. He said, the reason the Pats lost the SB is due to not using Moss and getting him the ball. Golic spoke up and said, no, they had to keep Brady clean first to get the ball off and Carter ranted on about how he just could not get Moss the ball and so on and on...

He said NE better keep Moss because they have no difference makers. Welker will be shut down without Moss and if Moss goes anywhere else like SD or Jacksonville he will tear it up just like he did in NE. Not giving Brady any of the credit, it was all Moss Moss Moss. Greenberg said Moss was the MVP of the league! Unreal. Are these people blind?

Carter went on to say how brilliant Moss was as a football player. I think we can all agree on that. Carter said how he would adjust in games and he had a great deal of respect for him in his ability. Carter also said that Moss can stir up crap at times. He is tempermental and his talent has allowed him to get away with some things. He said Moss grew up in a very very tough family environment and used that as an excuse for his behavior for a long time but there comes a time to be a man and he thinks that the Patriots environment and being around 'men' helped him grow out of being a boy or acting like a boy at times.

Interesting stuff....

Will Randy stay in NE. According to Carter he didn't really say but did say the $$$$$ is out there and depending on Randy's mood of that particular day, he could go either way. He mentioned SD a few times and the do need a WR badly, but damn, how do you go from Tom Brady, the ultimate QB and professional to Rivers???? That is my comment, not Carters!

thats way chris carter was not a first ballot hall of famer cause he has a big mouth and i think bardy was holding on to the ball to long looking for moss if he would have thrown d stall more 3 yerd pass that he turns it to frist downs and eat the colck the D played good enough to win

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Of course Cris Carter is right. Had Randy got the ball, the Pats would have won. That' easy. The only way the Giants were going to have a chance was if their pass rush was effective and it was. In the end, the Giants pass rush was too much for the O-Line and took the offense out of sync. That is why Randy didn't get the ball. Oh, and he probably had three guys on him.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Basically saying the Patriots did not use Moss properly in 2007. Yeah, that's what he said! Unreal. He said, the reason the Pats lost the SB is due to not using Moss and getting him the ball. Golic spoke up and said, no, they had to keep Brady clean first to get the ball off and Carter ranted on about how he just could not get Moss the ball and so on and on.

I said the same thing before the SB and everyone disagreed with me. The Patriots should have gone to Moss right away to set everything else up ... even if it meant short 10-15 yard passes with Moss in the slot. Instead the Patriots tried to establish the run ... which is textbook strategy but the Giants were ready for it... oh well.

 

[PAPatsjunkie]

Did anyone see last weeks Sports Illustrated, the one with the Tyree play on the cover? I didnt read it for obvious reasons until someone pointed it out to me, look at the story on the Superbowl, there is a picture in there of the ball heading Moss' way, and he has two Giants players absolutely raping him. One of them has a hold of his face mask, the other has him wrapped in a bear hug. The caption mentions none of this. There is also a great picture of holding on the Tyree play.

 

[IcyPatriot]

He wasn't a decoy. He was the primary WR. If you didn't notice, Brady spent a good amount of time in the first half on the ground. Hard to have a big player make big plays when the guy throwing him the ball is either sacked or hit before he can get the ball to him.

The Pats gameplan going in was to stretch the field with Moss and Stallworth and exploit the Giants' secondary. Unfortunately, guys like Justin Tuck, Osi Umenioyora, and Michael Strahan had different plans.

He was the primary WR split wide ... he should have been in the slot with Welker ... one on each side with Stallworth out wide to spread the secondary. Moss would have gotten banged up but he would have killed their linebacks on short 10 yard passes. By the time they tried it the game was in the 4th quater and the Giants were hungry ... the old leave a bad team in the game long enough and it comes to bite you in the butt thing.

 

[mcsully]

Wow, what a outragous comment.. If you ever watched INSIDE THE NFL.. He was the worst of the group.. Actually sometimes I wondered if he was even prepared for that weeks show..

 

[PatsDparty]

Did anyone see last weeks Sports Illustrated, the one with the Tyree play on the cover? I didnt read it for obvious reasons until someone pointed it out to me, look at the story on the Superbowl, there is a picture in there of the ball heading Moss' way, and he has two Giants players absolutely raping him. One of them has a hold of his face mask, the other has him wrapped in a bear hug. The caption mentions none of this. There is also a great picture of holding on the Tyree play.

Were you complaining when the Pats DBs were mugging the Rams receivers in 2002?

 

[fourthandmiles]

I posted something like this, after the SB loss, and my feelings are similar on the subject.
Iirc, someone commented that Moss did address it in a post game interview, and evidently regretted it.
It still sucks to think that Tyree's play will undoubtedly go down as one of the greatest in SB history, and Moss didn't make an effort to come down with that ball.

I have watched that replay a couple of times and that ball was thrown in a way it came down right over his helmet. If he had jumped it think it would have hit him in the head. He would have had to jump 180 and catch it in the gut or numbers. At the speed he was running I don't think that was possible.

 

[Deus Irae]

Were you complaining when the Pats DBs were mugging the Rams receivers in 2002?

The rule change/point of emphasis makes your argument moot.

 

[Rob0729]

I think you could soundly argue Brady would not have as good of a year with CJ as he had last year with Moss. Brady had a career year. Period. He won't approach that next year even with Moss.

My point is that Moss is more than an elite WR like Wayne or CJ. Moss is a once-in-a-generation WR who changes the complexion of games in a far more meaningful way than you "average" Pro Bowl WR.

How do you or I really know how Brady would have done last year with another elite WR? None of us do. Some of us assume it was Moss who raised Moss' game and others who think it was both of them raising each others. Brady did have game or two last year where he was spectacular without much production from Moss like the Jacksonville playoff game where he broke the completion percentage record.

I obviously think Moss is an elite WR, but to think that he elevated Brady's game to stratospher status and Brady didn't do the same for him is a little crazy. Brady has led the league in passing yards and TDs with pretty average WRs at his disposal. I would fully expect that if he had a Chad Johnson or Reggie Wayne or Steve Smith that he would elevate their game to super elite status too.

I don't know if Brady could break the records with another WR, but I don't think it is crazy to think that he could have over 4,500 yards and 30-35 TDs with a Johnson or Wayne. Even having bad years last year, Carson Palmer had 4,131 yards and 26 TDs and Manning had 4,040 yards and 30 TDs. Both Johnson and Wayne had similar amount of yards (all three had over 1,400 yards), but obviously fell short in the TD category. Manning is in the same category as Brady, but I wouldn't put Palmer.

 

[RussFrancis]

I have watched that replay a couple of times and that ball was thrown in a way it came down right over his helmet. If he had jumped it think it would have hit him in the head. He would have had to jump 180 and catch it in the gut or numbers. At the speed he was running I don't think that was possible.

Ive been watching Moss play as long as the rest of us has. And Ive NEVER seen a ball come down on top of his head. The chances of that ever happening are really slim to none. But a couple of things are certain. I would have rather seen him go up and make a play on the ball at its highest point. And with Moss' skill, anything is possible when he goes up for a ball. It didnt happen. Life goes on.

 

[Xzibit23]

Other than the MVP comment, where were they wrong? Has Gaffney become a difference maker somehow? How about C.J., Kyle Brady or Watson?

Did the team put Moss in motion any real amount of the time to keep him from getting bumped on the line and allow him to get off clean? Did they give him slant patterns behind a Stallworth 'go' route?

Bingo. Other than the MVP comment, all his points were valid. The Pats didnt use him properly in the playoffs, and the SB in particular. With the Pass rush the giants were bringing it was stupid to have Moss running go routes because he was essentially wasted for the first 3 quarters. Also, if he goes to a team like Jacksonville, he could absolutely be the difference maker that gets them a superbowl. Gerard is an accurate and mobile QB, which usually adds up to good success with Moss.

 

[PatsDparty]

The rule change/point of emphasis makes your argument moot.

Not really. It wasn't a rule change, it was point of emphasis. It was still a rule I believe that just wasn't enforced. I'd rather let them play than all these ticky tacky calls personally. The giants made more plays than the Pats, end of story.

 

[Deus Irae]

Not really. It wasn't a rule change, it was point of emphasis. It was still a rule I believe that just wasn't enforced. I'd rather let them play than all these ticky tacky calls personally. The giants made more plays than the Pats, end of story.

Yes, really. Contact was allowed before, and it's not allowed now. Therefore, the comparison is moot.

 

[tombonneau]

How do you or I really know how Brady would have done last year with another elite WR? None of us do. Some of us assume it was Moss who raised Moss' game and others who think it was both of them raising each others. Brady did have game or two last year where he was spectacular without much production from Moss like the Jacksonville playoff game where he broke the completion percentage record.

I obviously think Moss is an elite WR, but to think that he elevated Brady's game to stratospher status and Brady didn't do the same for him is a little crazy. Brady has led the league in passing yards and TDs with pretty average WRs at his disposal. I would fully expect that if he had a Chad Johnson or Reggie Wayne or Steve Smith that he would elevate their game to super elite status too.

I don't know if Brady could break the records with another WR, but I don't think it is crazy to think that he could have over 4,500 yards and 30-35 TDs with a Johnson or Wayne. Even having bad years last year, Carson Palmer had 4,131 yards and 26 TDs and Manning had 4,040 yards and 30 TDs. Both Johnson and Wayne had similar amount of yards (all three had over 1,400 yards), but obviously fell short in the TD category. Manning is in the same category as Brady, but I wouldn't put Palmer.

I'm basing my opinion on the sample size of QBs that Moss has helped to have career years:

Cunningham
Jeff George
(I'll type that one again...)
Jeff George
Culpepper

I think we can all agree that those guys never sniffed the kind of production they did with Moss.

No of course, none of those guys could lace up Brady's cleats, but still just showing that Moss has proven in the past he can elevate QBs to the stratosphere.

I would agree Brady gets credit as well.

But I'd think it's about a 60/40 split in Moss' favor. He is just that good.

Were he to go and the Pats were to get CJ, I think Brady would still have a great year -- he is a great QB and CJ is a great WR -- but it would not be a record-setting once-in-a-lifetime kind of year.

 

[Joker]

12:01 a.m. can't get here fast enough

 

[PAPatsjunkie]

Yes, really. Contact was allowed before, and it's not allowed now. Therefore, the comparison is moot.

And it really is moot considering the change of rule emphasis was on defensive holding. In this picture the ball is in the air, that is pass interference, and always has been.