"Cheating" or being good at your job

[Frezo]

I do not believe that the most experienced coach in the league mistakingly misinterpreted the rules. You might, I might. But then you haven't spent our lives living on the edge of those rules, bending them, breaking them, and fighting for changes in them. Belichick was part of the dialogue on possible changes so that defensive signals could be transmitted electronically. THE NEP voted against. Belichick is a genious; he is experienced; and yes, he knows the intent of the rules and what the NFL offices want and why. He chooses an "us and them" vis a vis the Commissioner, other NFL offices, and the press. And we love him for it. And when he gets caught, he doesn't even have the intestinal fortitude to simply say that he got caught and to move on.

I appreciate what your are doing. You are presenting argument so that we can all feel good about what was done, and so that we can believe that Belichick was right. I would note that Belichick doesn't care whether he is right or wrong. With regard to football-related things, he has no moral compass.

As Churchill said long ago about someone he needed as an ally: "Sure he's a dictator, but he's our dictator." So it is with Belichick. He is what he is. But we are proud to have him as our coach, warts and all. IMO, there is no reason to make believe with regard to his faults.

This has been bothering me too. He must've been painfully aware of the consequences. Here's something else. Estrella was busted for filming from the sidelines in Green Bay. In fact I understand it happened twice in the same game during each half. In each instance he turned over the tape to GB security and that was the end of the story. I don't believe the tapes ever went to Goodell because no penalties were issued and they were probably just tossed. Why didn't Estrella turn over the tapes to Jets security? They probably would have confiscated them and that was that. I see one of two things.

The Jets security told Estrella they were going to turn them over to NFL security.

Belichick instructed him to not turn them over under to Jets security.

I think each team would rather police its own stadium and not go running to NFL security. Why would Belichick tell him not to though? Maybe Estrella acted on his own, but it would have been out of character based on GB. Didn't he also state that Belichick put him up to it? Why would he say that? It's not like they had a torture room nearby. There is something going on here that is deep below the surface. Everything Belichick does that is football related is calculated. What the heck is he doing?

 

[emoney_33]

There, fixed it for ya.

Keep avoiding my post lmfao. Explain to me the logistics or how you would go about using in game footage of a coach during that game to aid yourself. You can't even begin to detail the process, you have no idea what would go into it. You want to look at the forest from a friggin airplane and say "see it's the size of my finger, can't possibly get lost in that".

I didn't even go into great detail but I gave you enough of an idea as to how unlikely if not impossible it would be to have any significance come out of it during a game.

 

[BoltsFan]

Keep avoiding my post lmfao. Explain to me the logistics or how you would go about using in game footage of a coach during that game to aid yourself. You can't even begin to detail the process, you have no idea what would go into it. You want to look at the forest from a friggin airplane and say "see it's the size of my finger, can't possibly get lost in that".

I didn't even go into great detail but I gave you enough of an idea as to how unlikely if not impossible it would be to have any significance come out of it during a game.

Dude, I detailed the process in an earlier post IN THIS THREAD. It's not that hard to do.

LMFAO. Why don't you explain AGAIN why the pats were interested in Detroit and Green Bay's "tendencies." Try it again.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I think you're the one who doesn't understand.

Trying to get, figure out or 'steal' the opponents calls/signals is NOT against the NFL rules.

 

[emoney_33]

Dude, I detailed the process in an earlier post IN THIS THREAD. It's not that hard to do.

LMFAO. Why don't you explain AGAIN why the pats were interested in Detroit and Green Bay's "tendencies." Try it again.

You have detailed NOTHING. You simply said something along the lines of someone would hook it up to the polaroids based on the timestamps to hook the signal up with the play for the next time they see it.

You never talk about the time it will take to go through the tape of about 40 plays, the time to correlate each with a polaroid, the time to study what each defender was doing during that play to know what exact play was called, the means of memorzing or writing down these 40 or so correlations, the time and means of recognizing which of the 40 plays corresponds to a call in real-time with 15-30 seconds to think of a counter and get it into your offense or simply tell your offense the play, the fact that they shut the radio off after they call the offensive play, the offense is on the clock and you can't just sit and wait for a defensive signal to call your play, etc... Yea you detailed a whole ****load of nothing but fantasy to suit your agenda.


As for Detroit and GB and any other ****ty ass team... BB has never ever prepared different, meaning more or less, for any team. He goes into each week of preparation with the same mentality of leaving no stone unturned. Any preparation he would use for the colts or chargers, he would use for the lions, texans, packers or any other team as well.

 

[PatsSteve1]

You never talk about the time it will take to go through the tape of about 40 plays, the time to correlate each with a polaroid, the time to study what each defender was doing during that play to know what exact play was called, the means of memorzing or writing down these 40 or so correlations, the time and means of recognizing which of the 40 plays corresponds to a call in real-time with 15-30 seconds to think of a counter and get it into your offense or simply tell your offense the play, the fact that they shut the radio off after they call the offensive play, the offense is on the clock and you can't just sit and wait for a defensive signal to call your play, etc... Yea you detailed a whole ****load of nothing but fantasy to suit your agenda.

The D call comes in after the radio for the QB shuts off with 15 seconds to go in the play clock. So the QB has the play call before, not after the D call is made.

 

[emoney_33]

The D call comes in after the radio for the QB shuts off with 15 seconds to go in the play clock. So the QB has the play call before, not after the D call is made.

There ya go, so forget the 20-30 second thing.

15 seconds to see the signal, figure out which of the 40 it corresponds to that you've correlated, and get it into your offense with no radio... SICK! I am more impressed with BB now, he's not even human.

 

[BoltsFan]

You have detailed NOTHING. You simply said something along the lines of someone would hook it up to the polaroids based on the timestamps to hook the signal up with the play for the next time they see it.

You never talk about the time it will take to go through the tape of about 40 plays, the time to correlate each with a polaroid, the time to study what each defender was doing during that play to know what exact play was called, the means of memorzing or writing down these 40 or so correlations, the time and means of recognizing which of the 40 plays corresponds to a call in real-time with 15-30 seconds to think of a counter and get it into your offense or simply tell your offense the play, the fact that they shut the radio off after they call the offensive play, the offense is on the clock and you can't just sit and wait for a defensive signal to call your play, etc... Yea you detailed a whole ****load of nothing but fantasy to suit your agenda.


As for Detroit and GB and any other ****ty ass team... BB has never ever prepared different, meaning more or less, for any team. He goes into each week of preparation with the same mentality of leaving no stone unturned. Any preparation he would use for the colts or chargers, he would use for the lions, texans, packers or any other team as well.

Yea? So that's why the pats got busted. It's SOP for every other team and the pats are unfortunate victims. Now I understand. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

 

[PatsSteve1]

Yea? So that's why the pats got busted. It's SOP for every other team and the pats are unfortunate victims. Now I understand. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

They got 'busted' for having a video camera on the sidelines. You seem to have the same sore loser mentality that LT, Merriman and Whines Ward have.

 

[JJDChE]

Yea? So that's why the pats got busted. It's SOP for every other team and the pats are unfortunate victims. Now I understand. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

That's not what he said. He's simply saying your interpretation of why they were taping is not well thought out.

The Pats aren't victims. The Pats aren't the only ones taping the opponents, but not everyone isn't doing it.

The Pats are not stealing signals via videotape, they're studying tendencies of coaches. Game film is for studying tendencies of players, coaches film is for studying tendencies of coaches.

 

[JJDChE]

One more thing. Dude!? That's pure BS. I'm sure the pats nation is drinking your kool aid I'm not.

What? You were studying Detroit and Green Bay for that reason? Stop it. Don't be silly. Those are 2 NFC opponents that you KNEW you wouldn't see in the SB last year. And you won't see them again for another FOUR years.

Just keep drinking your kool aid.

Again, coaches tendencies, not players or teams. If Detroit's DC leaves and becomes the Bills DC next year then BB has the tape.

 

[JJDChE]

When I saw this thread had 80 replies I was hoping when I opened it there would be substantive responses to AJ's original post. No such luck, just a b*tchfest. At least emoney brought some real discussion to the thread.

 

[Pats726]

There's no NFL rule against trying to steal the calls/signals of another team. None. Had that video camera been in the coaches booth instead of the sidelines, there's have been no NFL rule violation at all.

That indeed is true...but take a look at how the masses view it all...many see stealing sugnals as cheating..and MANY journalists and ex-players love this notion..and exploit their position to whack teh Patriots knowing full wll ALL TAMS do it.

 

[emoney_33]

The Boston Globe already explained this -- see the attached link, then scroll down and look for the link to the graphic called "How Spying Could be Used."

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/

Another overly simplistic bull**** attempt to look at how it could be used. All spoken in vague terms with no mention of anything else.


THREE signals being sent in for each play. You think a raised hand means blitz in any coaches arsenal of signals? REALLY? Something that simple can be seen by the naked eye lol, no coach is that dumb. No talk about the time to watch the 40 plays, hook them up with polaroids, study all 40 correlations to be able to determine maybe one sign and recognize it if you see it agian remembering which of the 40 it corresponds to etc. etc... blah blah.


They made it so simplistic, the way they see it, a video tape is a hindrance the naked eye could do a better job of deciphering SIMPLE signals like hand raising to blitz lmfao.

Forget it i already went into detail about all this crap you conveniently ignore to show me a friggin child's graphic of "how to use video to spy" which isn't even logically feasible.


Just pushing their uneducated ideas to the generally biased public i guess.


PATHETIC

 

[emoney_33]

So why do you think BB taped opponents' defensive signals? It had to be to gain an advantage either in that game or a future game, right?

I already explained numerous times. If you choose to ignore what i have already said that is your problem. ALL tape is used to hopefully be more prepared for your opponent, taping the coaches would be to study their tendencies, body language etc.. HOPING that you could be more prepared for said coach. Not for signals, but yes to be better prepared.

They broke a dumb rule, overpaid a huge price for it, and have to listen to anti-pats agenda pushing fools talk about cheating this and that. Get the hell over it already whiners

 

[emoney_33]

On what basis do you think BB was not trying to learn opposing teams defensive signals? Seems to me that's the most likely goal of taping opposing teams' defensive coaches as they make their signals.

It SEEMS to you because you choose to think like that. It's not feasible to use a non-live video camera to tape defensive signals. There is NOT enough time during the game to effectively decipher, correlate and recognize a defensive signal. PERIOD. And no team will have the same defensive signals the next game. AND they are sending 3 signals out per play. It's naive if not downright ignorant to believe it's possible to record and decipher this information during a football game. Not to mention the 15 seconds you have to recognize and relay the signal to your offense.

Someone with a photographic memory, lip readers, someone studying everything in real time, would all be more feasilbe though still extremely difficult to decipher signals. Sign stealing is extremely difficult in the NFL. Everyone tries, and success is maybe recognizing one call during a game. They send 3 signals out, they change signals, there's too much going on etc... People just want to take a simplistic approach and fantasize over "oooh stealing signals, cheating".

 

[emoney_33]

But even your analysis shows that the taping could be used to gain an advantage in the next game.

Just like ALL tape is used to try and gain an advantage in the NEXT game? Well not so much advantage but better prepared. Whats the point? I never said the video was pointless. The video was for advanced scouting of the coaches, it's a dumb rule, a minor infraction, we did violate a rule, we should have paid, we paid too much, the idea that we are cheaters is downright ignorant, now lets move on already.

 

[emoney_33]

But "cheating" is exactly what it is.

Goodell's letter says this:

NFL policy states that “no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches’ booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game” and that all video shooting locations for club coaching purposes “must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead.”

In a memo to NFL head coaches and general managers on September 6, 2006, NFL Executive Vice President of Football Operations Ray Anderson said, “Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.”

No ambiguity there -- Belichick had a Pats cameraman on the sidelines videotaping the opponent's defensive signals.

Goodell then concludes:

“This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field,” Commissioner Goodell wrote in a letter to the Patriots.

"calculated and deliberate" attempt to avoid the rules -- that's "cheating"

http://www.bartleby.com/61/34/C0263400.html

INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud. 2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

Stop forcing it. You know and everyone knows it's not cheating as we use the term. The exact wording from the dictionary doesnt matter. You are a CHEATER too then, you have never broken any rule of any kind in your life? If you have you are a cheater, by definition.

The pats broke a minor rule, now lets move on. I'm done with you and your agenda in this thread.