Chances of BoB leaving?

[Deus Irae]

Why did it cost them 7 points? He wasn't picked in the endzone, they had just crossed midfield. What percentage of drives that cross midfield end up in 7 points? All I'm saying is that, since the Jets got absolutely nothing out of the turnover, we had a chance to start fresh, so to speak. It wasn't a huge momentum shifter or anything a mentally tough team couldn't overcome.

It was first and 10 from the 28, so I don't know where the "midfield" thing is coming from, since they were already in field goal range. Brady hadn't thrown a pick since week 5, had the Patriots marching down the field and the Jets back on their heels, and he gifted the Jets. In the face of that, your position makes no sense.

If anything, that sequence of events had to be deflating for the Jets, as they intercepted Tom Brady after his amazing streak, got the ball to the Patriots 15-yard line and came away with zero points out of the whole ordeal. They got all the early breaks they wanted and still didn't find themselves leading at that point. If any team should have been hurt by the sequence it was the Jets, not the Patriots.

Getting the first pick of Brady since week 5 is deflating?

 

[RodThePat]

It was first and 10 from the 28, so I don't know where the "midfield" thing is coming from, since they were already in field goal range. Brady hadn't thrown a pick since week 5, had the Patriots marching down the field and the Jets back on their heels, and he gifted the Jets. In the face of that, your position makes no sense.



Getting the first pick of Brady since week 5 is deflating?

No, getting the first pick of Brady since week 5, getting the football to the 15-yard line, at the stadium of the team that just shellacked you 45-3 a few weeks prior, and coming out of that with zero points is deflating. They had everything break their way and couldn't take advantage.

You think after Folk missed the field goal the mindset on the Jets sideline was most likely to be "hey guys, but at least we picked him off, we can do this!!" or "you gotta be kidding me, we pick this guy off, get it to the 15 and still can't score? We're in for a long day..." ?

For some reason I thought they were at the 35-yard line or so when Brady was picked, so I apologize for the "had just crossed midfield" comment. Either way, there's no question the pass was a lazy and horrible play that took away our chance to put some points on the board, I just don't see how it was pretty much guaranteed they'd get 7, as you claim.

Either way, after the horrendous interception, the offense got the ball back with the score still tied at 0-0, at home and with more than 50 minutes left in the game. I don't think you can say that interception is what killed them. It had an impact on the game, sure, but had they played 80% of what they were capable off after the pick, they would've easily won the game, regardless of that sequence of events. What happened after the pick was much more influential to how that game turned out than the turnover itself.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Why did it cost them 7 points? He wasn't picked in the endzone, they had just crossed midfield. What percentage of drives that cross midfield end up in 7 points? All I'm saying is that, since the Jets got absolutely nothing out of the turnover, we had a chance to start fresh, so to speak. It wasn't a huge momentum shifter or anything a mentally tough team couldn't overcome.

If anything, that sequence of events had to be deflating for the Jets, as they intercepted Tom Brady after his amazing streak, got the ball to the Patriots 15-yard line and came away with zero points out of the whole ordeal. They got all the early breaks they wanted and still didn't find themselves leading at that point. If any team should have been hurt by the sequence it was the Jets, not the Patriots.

Meh. After the Jets made it 21-11 and coming away with zero points on a 15 play drive and only a FG w/ 2min to go to make it 21-14 were the psychological death blows IMO.

Moving on.....

 

[Deus Irae]

No, getting the first pick of Brady since week 5, getting the football to the 15-yard line, at the stadium of the team that just shellacked you 45-3 a few weeks prior, and coming out of that with zero points is deflating. They had everything break their way and couldn't take advantage.

Sorry, not buying it for a second, especially after the 45-3 pasting from the regular season.

You think after Folk missed the field goal the mindset on the Jets sideline was most likely to be "hey guys, but at least we picked him off, we can do this!!" or "you gotta be kidding me, we pick this guy off, get it to the 15 and still can't score? We're in for a long day..." ?

I think the Jets expected that they'd have more opportunities to put points on the board against that defense and gained confidence from having stopped Brady.

For some reason I thought they were at the 35-yard line or so when Brady was picked, so I apologize for the "had just crossed midfield" comment. Either way, there's no question the pass was a lazy and horrible play that took away our chance to put some points on the board, I just don't see how it was pretty much guaranteed they'd get 7, as you claim.

The Patriots were moving the ball at will, and the Jets were backpedaling at every snap. The Jets had nothing to stop Brady on that drive. He gave away 7 points and the added psychological impact of a quick strike after the 45-3 pasting.

Either way, after the horrendous interception, the offense got the ball back with the score still tied at 0-0, at home and with more than 50 minutes left in the game. I don't think you can say that interception is what killed them. It had an impact on the game, sure, but had they played 80% of what they were capable off after the pick, they would've easily won the game, regardless of that sequence of events. What happened after the pick was much more influential to how that game turned out than the turnover itself.

They went right back down and lost another 4 points. The Patriots pissed away 11 points on their first 2 drives, against a team they'd waxed 45-3 in the regular season, and they gave that team hope in the process. If you want to think that wasn't huge in terms of impact, you're welcome to do so. I'll disagree.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I don't get this. What exactly has BOB done wrong on the field in those games?

In 2009 the team was disjointed and divisive as it was and loses Welker before playing BAL.

In 2010 the team loses to the #1 defense in comp% against with a sub-standard running games that scares no one and scores 21 points. In turn, the defense gives up 4 TDs in 5 Red Zone trips and records zero sacks or INTs in the process. What is O'Brien supposed to do?

His playcalling has improved from year-to-year.

Is he HC material? Don't know.

You look at the the results our offense put up in the regular seasons, and there's no excuse for the performances in those 2 playoff games. None. You're vastly overrating what they did in the Jets game last year. 7 of those 21 points were garbage points after Greene sealed the game, Jets were in complete prevent. 3 more of them came off a big return from Edelman into Jets territory that SHOULD'VE been 7 in that situation, yet our offense couldn't do anything more than a first down or 2 in a KEY chance to capitalize.

And you want to blast the defense for that game, it's kind of hard when the opponent has 3 drives starting on YOUR side of the field, a couple more starting near midfield thanks to the anemic offense and ST. The offense takes as much if not more blame for that loss, the supposed strength of our team was a weakness. And it goes right back to us not having answers for what the Jets were doing defensively.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You look at the the results our offense put up in the regular seasons, and there's no excuse for the performances in those 2 playoff games. None. You're vastly overrating what they did in the Jets game last year. 7 of those 21 points were garbage points after Greene sealed the game, Jets were in complete prevent. 3 more of them came off a big return from Edelman into Jets territory that SHOULD'VE been 7 in that situation, yet our offense couldn't do anything more than a first down or 2 in a KEY chance to capitalize.

And you want to blast the defense for that game, it's kind of hard when the opponent has 3 drives starting on YOUR side of the field, a couple more starting near midfield thanks to the anemic offense and ST. The offense takes as much if not more blame for that loss, the supposed strength of our team was a weakness. And it goes right back to us not having answers for what the Jets were doing defensively.

Not sure if you've noticed but sometimes we lose games in the regular season where we can't score consistently. Same deal. More often than not it's because guys aren't focused or executing consistently or just having a bad day due to matchups or injury or complacency. They're all human, not to mention the other team gets paid, too. :ugh:

People here expect too much, and when they don't get it they blame the coordinators... 2007 really did a number on this fan base in more ways than one. And before you go there, a dose of reality isn't an excuse - just a rational counter to unrealistic expectations.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Not sure if you've noticed but sometimes we lose games in the regular season where we can't score consistently. Same deal. More often than not it's because guys aren't focused or executing consistently or just having a bad day due to matchups or injury or complacency. They're all human, not to mention the other team gets paid, too. :ugh:

People here expect too much, and when they don't get it they blame the coordinators... 2007 really did a number on this fan base in more ways than one. And before you go there, a dose of reality isn't an excuse - just a rational counter to unrealistic expectations.

Well it's interesting that a team who was 14-2 and just ran through every other elite team/defense on the way to that record decided to lay a stinker in the game that mattered most. But if you want to blame it purely on execution that's your call, personally I'm not ready to absolve BOB until we see if this is a trend under him or just 2 random displays of abysmal execution that happened to occur in January.

I'm not denying that the guy has gotten better from 09-10 and 10-11, the adjustments we've seen the team make during this win streak weren't there much of '09/'10. So let's hope that continues into the playoffs against real competition.

 

[Patspsycho]

I don't get this. What exactly has BOB done wrong on the field in those games?

In 2009 the team was disjointed and divisive as it was and loses Welker before playing BAL.

In 2010 the team loses to the #1 defense in comp% against with a sub-standard running games that scares no one and scores 21 points. In turn, the defense gives up 4 TDs in 5 Red Zone trips and records zero sacks or INTs in the process. What is O'Brien supposed to do?

Against a quarter defense, the formation was a 6 man protection for a big chunk of the game (with Woody staying back for the blitz check) and as I've pointed out elsewhere this leaves 4 receivers for 7-8 DB's to cover. Even the five man protection (5 WRs) didn't fare well. Instead of trying a different formation or call, we went empty empty empty, pass-pass-pass. THAT is on the OC, not the players.

I don't get how you can call the run game sub-standard when there wasn't even a substantial number of snaps for the backs (just 9 for BJGE). Also BJGE was averaging 4.8 YPC and that is not a substandard number, especially by playoff standards.

 

[PatsChamp88]

Yeah he'll probably get fired

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Yeah, it's not that I disagree with your point, it's just that the McDaniels stuff is moronic. The Broncos are winning largely because of the revamped O-line (McDaniels), the young and improving wide receivers (McDaniels), the QB (McDaniels) the return of Dumervil (back from missing the whole season due to injury), the play of Dawkins (McDaniels, and Dawkins' absence has clearly been felt in recent games), Miller (draft pick this year).

What happened in Denver was the McDaniels followed a legend (Shanahan), got rid of two players who didn't want to be there, and were complaining before McDaniels was ever hired (Cutler, Marshall), and went with a combination of draft picks and older players to get them through a transition. When the older players struggled and the young players took time to develop, the people who'd been griping about him since, basically, the beginning, got their wish. Denver's now winning, in some pretty good part, thanks to McDaniels' moves.

Did he make some bad draft picks? Sure. Did he sign some shot veterans? Sure. But he wasn't being charged with maintaining excellence. He was being charged with revamping the team and making it a contender again. That takes time. He never got that time.

As for the Rams, well, trying to install that offense during the lockout, having the QB injured, losing most of an already lousy WR corps, and having an O-line decimated might, just possibly, have something to do with the offensive struggles there. It's not as if he has a Dante to coach the O-line, scads of depth, and a Brady-like QB to help out.

This is completely revisionist history. Josh McDaniels demolished Denver's roster so much that the Broncos lost almost all of his last 20 games there. Fans still hate him in Colorado. There were multiple web sites created by fans solely devoted to getting him fired. It's been documented elsewhere but McDaniels has a LONG list of disaster personnel moves in Denver, too many that they weren't just outliers or exceptions. Holley's new book also showed how McDaniels messed up the Patriot drafts (Maroney, Chad Jackson, and more). Denver was also 1-4 this season until John Fox changed the team's scheme and offensive style. Also, Von Miller and that revamped defense came in AFTER McDaniels left.

After McDaniels decimated Denver, he went on to ruin St. Louis. Even though he had Sam Bradford, Steven Jackson, and a new O-line, the Rams this year ranked 32nd dead last in points (11 points per game), total yards, and 3rd down conversions. The Rams are 2-14 and a lot of that falls on McDaniels. The Rams offense is worse than the Colts, Vikings, and other teams that had catastrophic offensive injuries or wanted to Suck for Luck.

I think O'Brien has been better than McDaniels, I love the 2 tight end offense because of its extra versatility and unpredictability, but O'Brien has gotten out-classed two playoffs in a row. The problem is that these coaches did nothing before winning the lottery and joining the Patriots. O'Brien was a coach at Duke which is not a winning program. Our assistant coaches aside from Scar have no past success without Belichick. It's a big reason why no coach who left the Belichick tree has succeeded in the NFL. They came from nowhere and had to be severely coached up by Belichick, and when they leave they aren't as good. It's a similar analogy to taking unknown players like David Givens, making them succeed in the system here, but they fail when they leave.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Against a quarter defense, the formation was a 6 man protection for a big chunk of the game (with Woody staying back for the blitz check) and as I've pointed out elsewhere this leaves 4 receivers for 7-8 DB's to cover. Even the five man protection (5 WRs) didn't fare well. Instead of trying a different formation or call, we went empty empty empty, pass-pass-pass. THAT is on the OC, not the players.

I don't get how you can call the run game sub-standard when there wasn't even a substantial number of snaps for the backs (just 9 for BJGE). Also BJGE was averaging 4.8 YPC and that is not a substandard number, especially by playoff standards.

It was over a year ago so I can't recall all the problems during the last 2 playoff losses, but in general terms O'Brien was completely outclassed in both playoff losses. The Pats haven't won a playoff game with BOB calling the game. In the Baltimore loss, I remember he quizzically went with Kevin Faulk almost exclusively in the majority of early plays. He took Faulk out of his usual 3rd down role and didn't use our regular 1st and 2nd down backs who were healthy and available. Then, in the Jets loss, Law Firm ran very well but was barely used by BOB even though he was getting good yardage every time. I also remember that the players said they spent all week preparing against Jets man to man and had no idea to what to do when the Jets went to zone all game and with many nickel and dime looks. I think O'Brien will be better this year, he seems to improve every season as a coach, but the fact remains that he started off as a nobody out of a no-name college program with no prior success, so he's basically like other coaches who go through our system who develop as coaches similar to how this team developed no-names like David Givens, Woodhead, etc etc.

 

[Deus Irae]

This is completely revisionist history. Josh McDaniels demolished Denver's roster so much that the Broncos lost almost all of his last 20 games there. Fans still hate him in Colorado. There were multiple web sites created by fans solely devoted to getting him fired. It's been documented elsewhere but McDaniels has a LONG list of disaster personnel moves in Denver, too many that they weren't just outliers or exceptions. Holley's new book also showed how McDaniels messed up the Patriot drafts (Maroney, Chad Jackson, and more). Denver was also 1-4 this season until John Fox changed the team's scheme and offensive style. Also, Von Miller and that revamped defense came in AFTER McDaniels left.

After McDaniels decimated Denver, he went on to ruin St. Louis. Even though he had Sam Bradford, Steven Jackson, and a new O-line, the Rams this year ranked 32nd dead last in points (11 points per game), total yards, and 3rd down conversions. The Rams are 2-14 and a lot of that falls on McDaniels. The Rams offense is worse than the Colts, Vikings, and other teams that had catastrophic offensive injuries or wanted to Suck for Luck.

I think O'Brien has been better than McDaniels, I love the 2 tight end offense because of its extra versatility and unpredictability, but O'Brien has gotten out-classed two playoffs in a row. The problem is that these coaches did nothing before winning the lottery and joining the Patriots. O'Brien was a coach at Duke which is not a winning program. Our assistant coaches aside from Scar have no past success without Belichick. It's a big reason why no coach who left the Belichick tree has succeeded in the NFL. They came from nowhere and had to be severely coached up by Belichick, and when they leave they aren't as good. It's a similar analogy to taking unknown players like David Givens, making them succeed in the system here, but they fail when they leave.

The irony of you calling my points revisionist history while supplying nothing but that on your side is noted.

However, since I'd been noting that the Broncos needed the changes that they'd made, and that they were going to need time to overhaul their defense, mine is not actually revisionist.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The irony of you calling my points revisionist history while supplying nothing but that on your side is noted.

However, since I'd been noting that the Broncos needed the changes that they'd made, and that they were going to need time to overhaul their defense, mine is not actually revisionist.

Re-read your original post, you even gave McDaniels credit that the Broncos drafted Von Miller this year! So I guess you're right then, McDaniels did such a complete job destroying the Denver Broncos that they were able to draft high enough to get Von Miller, as well as other pieces after McDaniels left to stabilize the team. The Broncos were still 1-4 this year until John Fox implemented more drastic changes, but again you choose to give McDaniels credit for what John Fox did. Basically you're showing that you have an agenda and will stretch any info to somehow give credit to McDaniels. Meanwhile, all McDaniels continues to do is lose and destroy the team that employs him. Your argument would hold more water if McDaniels had different success with the Rams, but nope, the Rams are dead last in offense despite multiple good pieces to work with.

 

[DaBruinz]

After McDaniels decimated Denver, he went on to ruin St. Louis. Even though he had Sam Bradford, Steven Jackson, and a new O-line, the Rams this year ranked 32nd dead last in points (11 points per game), total yards, and 3rd down conversions. The Rams are 2-14 and a lot of that falls on McDaniels. The Rams offense is worse than the Colts, Vikings, and other teams that had catastrophic offensive injuries or wanted to Suck for Luck.

How can you claim that McDaniels ruined St. Louis? Do you even know what has happened in St. Louis? Your comments say that you have no idea. The St. Louis offense has been decimated by injuries.

Here is the players on IR:

Danny Amendola - WR - Their best WR before they added Brandon Lloyd. He's been out since the 1st game.
Jacob Bell - OG - Starting Guard (played in 11+ games)
Mark Clayton - WR - Their #2 WR before his injury (went down in game 2)
Michael Hoomanuwanui - TE - Starting TE (played in 8 games)
Brit Miller - FB - Starting FB (went out in game 12)
Roger Saffold - LT - Starting LT and arguably their best O-lineman (went down in game 9)
Greg Salas - WR - Their #3 WR. Only played in 6 games..
Jason Smith - RT - Their starting RT. (played in 5+ games)

Add to that the suspension of Austin Pettis whom they were hoping would be their #4 and the fact that Bradford has missed 5 games this year. Are you really trying to say that McDaniels injured those players? Because that is the ONLY way you can sit there with a straight face and claim that McDaniels ruined that team. Also, what proof do you have that McDaniels has any say in the player drafting process in St. Louis?

The fact that St. Louis is going to can Spags with the number of starters they've had go on the IR is ridiculous. Besides the 8 starters on the offense, They've lost their top 6 CBs and a safety. (Man, and I thought we had it bad)..

I can't imagine ANY team being able to over-come those sorts of injuries.. Blaming it on McDaniels is being naive.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re-read your original post, you even gave McDaniels credit that the Broncos drafted Von Miller this year! So I guess you're right then, McDaniels did such a complete job destroying the Denver Broncos that they were able to draft high enough to get Von Miller, as well as other pieces after McDaniels left to stabilize the team. The Broncos were still 1-4 this year until John Fox implemented more drastic changes, but again you choose to give McDaniels credit for what John Fox did. Basically you're showing that you have an agenda and will stretch any info to somehow give credit to McDaniels. Meanwhile, all McDaniels continues to do is lose and destroy the team that employs him. Your argument would hold more water if McDaniels had different success with the Rams, but nope, the Rams are dead last in offense despite multiple good pieces to work with.

Here is Deus' original post:
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...0/874889-chances-bob-leaving.html#post2866837

I don't see it happening. I think young Patriots O.C.s will have to wait longer, rightly or wrongly, because of how McDaniels' stint in Denver played out.

He did not give any credit to McDaniels there. You must be referring to this one, which was actually his 3rd post regarding McDaniels and a response to DarylS. And basically Deus was expanding on the idea that blaming McDaniels for the debacle in Denver without giving him credit for the talent that Denver has currently have is nonsense. Also, is you actually read it, Deus does NOT give McDaniels credit for the selection of Von Miller.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...89-chances-bob-leaving-page3.html#post2866885

Yeah, it's not that I disagree with your point, it's just that the McDaniels stuff is moronic. The Broncos are winning largely because of the revamped O-line (McDaniels), the young and improving wide receivers (McDaniels), the QB (McDaniels) the return of Dumervil (back from missing the whole season due to injury), the play of Dawkins (McDaniels, and Dawkins' absence has clearly been felt in recent games), Miller (draft pick this year).

You'll note that Deus specifically gives credit to McDaniels for the o-line, wide receivers, Tebow, and Dawkins. He adds in that two other reasons that the Broncos are having success this year are Dumervil being healthy and the addition of Von Miller. Neither of which he credits to McDaniels.

The person showing himself to have an agenda on the subject would actually be you, Dropkick, because you have naively blamed McDaniels for St. Louis being lousy even though they have lost 8 starters on offense. How you can blame McDaniels for the loss of 8 starters is beyond comprehension. You also refuse to give McDaniels credit for the players he added in Denver who he didn't get a full chance to develop.

 

[reflexblue]

Brady threw a pick on a simple screen play and Crumpler dropped an easy touchdown. That's not the coaches imploding. That's the players screwing up.

After that it was pass pass pass, it was still Very early in the game and BOB abandoned the run. Then at the end of the fourth quarter with time running out and the team to score quickly he called running play after running play. Maybe he thought he was going to trick the jests but he didn't. Also BOB doesn't seem to dial up plays to slow down the opposing teams pass rush, if your going to throw down after down you would think that he would call some screens and play action (of course one needs to at least attempt to run the ball for PA to work). The pats were one of the best at the screen pass, now you very rarely if ever see it. I'm going to go back and read last years game and post game threads and see what the comments where , i know many people thought BOB called a horrible game.

Going back to the playoff game against the ravens the year before a synopsis of BOBS play calling in that game would go like this:

First and ten ...Long bomb to to R.Moss down the right side

Second and Ten...long bomb to R.Moss down the right side.

Third and Ten....Long bomb to R.Moss down the Right.

This may be an exaggeration, but not by much

I think you said in an earlier post that the pats prepared all week for the jest to play zone, and instead they came out in man to man coverage. A good OC would adjust his game plane, not just keep trying to run plays designed to attack a zone, again BOB failed to adjust from what i remember.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The St. Louis offense has been decimated by injuries.

Here is the players on IR:

Listing injuries to Rams' defensive players, has no impact on why the Rams are DEAD LAST in offense in points, yards, and 3rd down. Also, the Rams had even more catastrophic injuries to receivers in Bradford's rookie season, when Bradford played better last yr than he did this year under McDaniels. So, I don't buy the excuses about receivers. The team suffered injuries to some other players you listed, but by the time Saffold and Hoomanawanui were hurt, the Rams had already played over half a season and it was clear the offense was terrible, so you can't blame the poor season on those guys going down after the fact. Finally, we can play the injury game all you want, whether it's looking at the Colts, Vikings, or other bottom dwelling teams with catastrophic injuries. The fact is that with Sam Bradford and Steven Jackson, the Rams offense was worse than Curtis Painter QB'ing the Colts and Christian Ponder QB'ing the Vikings. The Chiefs lost almost all their stars on offense and defense but they turned it around to salvage small parts of the season. It's puzzling how McDaniels can still have the reputation of being an offensive genius when he has the worst offense in the league coaching a pro bowl running back and the rookie of the year QB.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think you said in an earlier post that the pats prepared all week for the jest to play zone, and instead they came out in man to man coverage. A good OC would adjust his game plane, not just keep trying to run plays designed to attack a zone, again BOB failed to adjust from what i remember.

No, that wasn't me. That's actually a very poor argument, because the Jets always go with a lot of man concepts against the Patriots..

 

[BradyToAmendola]

Coordinators are a tad overrated by the fans IMO. Fans just use them as scapegoats when they don't want to admit that the players are messing up.

BOB's caught way too much crap on here over the years, as well. Not sure what more the fans want out of him, hes been the coordinator of arguably the most ponent offensive attack in the AFC the past 2 years.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Coordinators are a tad overrated by the fans IMO. Fans just use them as scapegoats when they don't want to admit that the players are messing up.

BOB's caught way too much crap on here over the years, as well. Not sure what more the fans want out of him, hes been the coordinator of arguably the most ponent offensive attack in the AFC the past 2 years.

Take a look at Belichick today during the game. He rarely speaks into his mic. The coordinators run the show in terms of play calls and adjustments. Belichick steps in only if it's completely spiraling out of control. Coordinators have a lot of control/power in the Belichick system.

BOB has put together a very nice offense, probably my favorite in the league with the 2-TE attack. That said, O'Brien has not won any playoff games in the NFL and the Pats went one and out the last two playoffs.