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Cause.....Bush Era Tax Cuts - Effect...........

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Mrs.PatsFanInVa, May 27, 2011.

  1. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #11 Jersey

    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  2. BSR

    BSR Rookie

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    emoney posted this last week so I will repeat what I wrote over there:

    You can ignore the part about the super rich since that wasn't your point at all.
  3. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    Oh, ugh....sorry, did he really?

    In that case, if a moderator would please delete this thead it would be appreciated. I did not realize there was already a tread about it.

    My bad.
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The underlying assumption is that taxes are a zero sum game. That is if you cut taxes it has zero impact on GDP ie the tax base and zero impact on people economic behavior (ie investing vs tax shelters) this is not true.

    Simplistic drivel from the left.


    The left feels that deficit spending spurs more growth than the cost for borrowing the money and diverting it from private sector use, we can see how that is working out a jobless 'recovery'.

    A couple of article exploding the premise and data on this chart.

    Taxes and Politics - Thomas Sowell - Townhall Conservative



    Slaves to Words - Thomas Sowell - Townhall Conservative




    I would urge people to read the entire articles. The explain in simple terms why the rhetoric of the left fails.

    I would also observe it is a dishonest scam. Don't believe me look at the number of dem billionaires who never end up paying their fair share. Buffett, Gates, Soros, Rockefeller, Lautenberger the Kennedy family and so on.
  5. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    This is a poor chart for the reasons laid out by BSR. The problem in general is that growth of spending is outpacing growth of revenues, and with the current entitlement system that is going to continue independent of tax rate. Have a look at the data:

    Historical Federal Receipt and Outlay Summary

    Since 2005 revenues have been steady but spending has increased $1 Trillion Dollars a year (it was $2,472 billion in 2005, it was $3,456 in 2010).

    I also would argue that the economic downturn is the reason behind what is categorized here as Bush's tax cuts. In the years when the economy was struggling (2002-3, 2009-10) tax revenues went down. That would have happened no matter what the rate was set at.

    Also, the costs of Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001 that I can find total ~1.2 to 1.3 Trillion Dollars. The cost of all bailouts since 2008 that I can find is $3 Trillion Dollars, yet the two appear equal as far as cause. Maybe that is due to future spending? Although with major combat operations essentially over in both places (relative to peak activity), and the fact that it took 10 years to get to 1 trillion, I would doubt that.

    Cost of War to the United States | COSTOFWAR.COM
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf
    http://money.cnn.com/news/storysupplement/economy/bailouttracker/

    At any rate I do agree with one basic premise of the post/chart; that it was/is irresponsible governance to spend so much without a system to make sure it was paid for. Tax cuts are OK but they can't be coupled with massive spending increases, so I'm with you there. I think though that the implied message here that if we only restore tax rates to their Clinton-era levels we'll be rid of our debt problem is folly.
    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  6. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    I don't think anyone has ever said that rich dems shouldn't pay their fair share of taxes, either, have they?

    Gates and Buffett say, quite publicly, that their taxes and the taxes of anyone even close to their bracket, should be raised.

    Warren Buffett Tells ABC Rich People Should Pay Higher Taxes - Bloomberg

    Warren Buffett and Bill Gates Talk Taxes and Philanthropy | Advisor One

    George Soros believes that maintaining the tax cuts actually hurts the wealthy and is in favor of abolishing them.

    News Headlines

    Jay Rockefeller is in favor of eliminating many of the current tax breaks, including the ones to the very wealthiest.

    Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV)

    The Kennedy family, I cannot speak for and I can find nowhere that they've spoken for themselves. I'm unsure who Lautenberger is.
    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  7. patsfan13

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    If Gates and Buffet really believed this they could just not take deductions, of course they pay as little as possible, empty posturing. They are hypocrites, do as I say not as I do.
  8. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    Think about that last statement, PF13....and ask yourself if you, or anyone else you know, would do as they do???

    Bill Gates discusses the effort he is leading, along with his wife, Melinda, and their good friend Warren Buffett to persuade America's richest people to sign a public statement committing at least half of their fortunes to charity.

    Gates-Buffett Giving Pledge - The Chronicle of Philanthropy- Connecting the nonprofit world with news, jobs, and ideas
  9. patsfan13

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    Didn't know the government was a 'charity'. Many of the 'rich' have given money to Charities for a long time. In the case of Gates and Buffett it is mostly after THEY are gone.

    They still don't choose to pay the full rate to the government, and btw if they wanted to be genuine they would pay themselves the 'rate; they are recommending for the 'rich' if they want to give what is left over to Charity good for them.

    My criticism stands.
  10. DarrylS

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    The US and its penchant for war has been breaking the economic back of this country for quite a while now, particularly Iraq which was based completely on lies and cost something like 3 trillion dollars, and this war was completely unfunded.

    None of the figures include the legacy costs for wounder warriors..

    Our debt went from $6.4 trillion in March 2003 to $10 trillion in 2008 (before the financial crisis).
  11. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    They are both giving away billions in the here and now, PF13.

    1/29/10 Bill Gates made the largest ever single charitable donation when he pledged $10billion (£6billion) to develop and distribute vaccines. The Microsoft founder hopes the money, to be spent over the next ten years through his foundation, will save the lives of more than eight million children in the world's poorest countries. 'We must make this the decade of vaccines,' he said. 'Vaccines already save and improve millions of lives. 'Innovation will make it possible to save more children than ever before.'


    Bill Gates makes world's biggest ever single charitable donation

    Warren Buffett has donated another $1.93 billion to five charitable foundations, the third-highest amount since the investor began donating 99 percent of his wealth in 2006.

    Warren Buffett donates $1.93 billion to charities | Reuters


    The are paying the full rate - at exactly what it is. What are they supposed to do? Make up a rate? Do you think the government accepts overpayments? The government is required, by law, to return any amount collected which is over and above that which is legally owed.

    How does anyone "pay themselves" anything?

    By your same reasoning if anyone really believes that a sonogram will dissuade a pregnant woman from having an abortion they would arrange to pay for the uncovered cost of each sonogram out of their own pocket.


    And my refusal to accept it as valid still stands, too.
  12. Holy Diver

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    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  13. patsfan13

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    If they believe in say a 50% rate for the rich they should pay 50% of THEIR gross. They whatever they give away of what is left over is their business.


    By the way the donations are going to kill third world children.

    Warren Buffett Donation to Bill Gates’ Foundation Means Millions for Abortion | LifeNews.com




    lifeissues | The Billionaire Boys Club


    Ironically Mrs Gates is supposed to be a practicing Catholic....:rolleyes:

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