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Casualty rate in Iraq

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PATSNUTme, Jun 29, 2006.

  1. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    http://icasualties.org/oif/

    Go to the link and you will get all of the casualties in Iraq close to up to date.

    Now, lets say that we have rotated about 600,000 individual military personnel since 2003. (some say 1,000,000 but I choose to use a smaller # because I can't find the exact # to link)

    If you take the KIA # on the link above our KIA rate is 1/2 of 1%.

    If you take the total of WRT & Wounded the rate is 3%. If you take just the wounded that did not return to duty after 72 hours the rate is 1.5%

    These would be considered to be "light" casualty #'s by any military commander. Each individual one is a tragedy.

    Sometimes it does help to put things into prospective.
     
  2. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Did you even go to the link?

    Wounded is 18,500 with 8,500 who did not return to duty after 72 hours.


    Also, please provide a credible source for the 50,000 Iraqi CIVILIANS that you claim have been killed by us. These should not include Iraqi military that were killed in the opening phase of the war or civilians killed by "insurgents" or terrorist.

    The link that I provided seems to be from an anti-war group.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2006
  3. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    From YOUR post

    Do you try to be so wrong all the time.
     
  5. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    50,000 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war. Go to Google news and search for 50,000 Iraqi civilians bush. You'll find a number of links. Take your choice. Other sources put the death toll as low as 30,000 and as high as 100,000, all of which are high numbers.

    While it is true that a relatively small number of American soldiers have died in this war, at least compared to the 60,000 that died during Vietnam, we owe a big thank you to the Vietnam anti-war movement, which helped reduce our tolerance (at least for most of us) for the death of troops. 2,500 is still way too many. Let's try to stop the number from rising more.
     
  7. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    You really do believe in the Easter Bunny, don't you?
     
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, the righties during Vietnam were not too concerned about the deaths of 60,000, just as you're apparently not terribly concerned about the deaths of 2,500. But, during Vietnam, the anti-war movement helped swing American public opinion against the war, and saved thousands of American lives. The same phenonemon is happening with Iraq. Just as Vietnam proved it wasn't the threat that the paranoid right believed it would be, the same will be shown for Iraq. In the meantime, build yourself a bomb shelter, stay out of cities, don't open any packages or mail, and, if you're still afraid, keep your head up your *****.
     
  9. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    You just struck a very sore spot with me and thousands of Vietnam Vets.

    Lets get something out of the way first. I disagreed with the Swift Boat guys for going after Kerry for what he did in the war. Kerry put himself in harms way and I respected him for that. He got the medals. Although if he had been in the Army I don't think he would have recieved the Silver Star or atleast on of his Purple Hearts but that is not the point.

    Where I can't stand Kerry is what he did after the war. He went in front of congress and testified about things that HE never saw or did like they were gospel. He testified about what others told him they did. HE was a reserve officer at the time and should have turned these guys in.

    What he said in congress got us Vet Vets labled as baby killers, rapist, and looters and burners. HE should hide his head in shame.

    And you NEM should be ashamed of yourself for using him as an example of virtue.

    Lets not go there anymore.

    The fact is that Nixon ended the draft. After that, there were no more big protest against the war. That tells you something how dedicated the anti-war people were at the time. I knew many of them- many of them were my friends.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2006
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What Kerry said I think still resonates today:

    http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html

    I'm sure in all his speech-making he was bound to have said some things he shouldn't have, but what that young man was brave enough to say in front of the U.S. Senate probably helped save thousands of lives. PATSNUTme, what do you disagree with, the Winter Soldier Investigation?
     
  11. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    I am concerned about very single American solidier who is killed in this or any conflict. I've seen it first hand and it's not pretty.

    However, every sloldier that enlist knows that they might be put in harms way. That is what makes these people so special. And, there are Dems's and Rep's and apoliticals serving in the military.

    So, don't be telling people that they aren't concerned about our soldiers. That is way over the top and really lowers the bar in any discussion.

    Many of us truely believe that the Iraq war is worth it. Many of you believe just the opposite.

    The point of bringing up the casualty rate is that if people just watch the news on TV and read the newpapers, the impression is that we are being defeated over there. Putting the casualty rate into prospective shows that we are not being defeated by the enemy over there.
     
  12. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some of the people in WInter Soldier were found out later to be frauds, never were where they said they were. Kerry lied about those of us who served during that time. He was and is scum for that.

    The Winter SOldier hearings were a Fraud.
     
  13. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    His opening statement was a complete fruad and throws **** on every guy who served there. His 150 vets who "testified" were liars. They didn't testify under oath, if they had really had, they would be in Levenworth today.

    Yes, that is what I and many others hate about about him.

    He can be your hero if you want and his disgusting lies can "resonate" with those who don't know any better. That is all I'm going to say about this.
     
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They may have been flawed, but from what I've read they contained a lot of truths, plus since the war there's all sorts of photographic evidence -- use of napalm, putting people in animal cages, and I'm sure much more.

    The anti-war movement fought the President and the generals, not individual soldiers. It doesn't make sense for college students with siblings, relatives, and friends in Vietnam to blame the soldiers. It was the right-wing that foisted the argument on you that the anti-war movement was anti-soldier, just as they are doing to today's soldiers. The left was not the enemy at home. The enemy was the egos, arrogance, and incompetence of our leaders.
     
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here's Wikipedia's entry on the Winter Soldier Investigation. It sounds like it had high standards, but that doesn't mean it was a perfect event:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation

    I think it's wrong to ignore the politics of it all. To fight the government and the war hawks, you had to fight fire with fire. While they presented doomsday scenarios of communism sweeping the world, the left was responding in kind. It was about students and anti-war activists convincing the American people despite the fact that the movement did not have the money or media access that the government had. If they didn't shock America, then the war might well have dragged on. What the anti-war crowd did is play the horror card, which trumped the fear card, as well it should.
     
  16. patsfan13

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    No truth, I served at that time and knew lots of guys who were there. The whole thing was a fraud.
     
  17. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Was Mai Lai a fraud? How many soldiers were in Vietnam? If 60,000 died, the number must have been huge. Was it a million? What percent of that number do you think could have been criminal? One hundredth of a percent? That's a 1000. Could a few of them been officers, too? And you don't think there were any crimes or atrocities? C'mon. We're not talking about the average soldier in the most typical situation; we're talking about the messed up soldier in a bad situation. I have a colleague, a staunch, pro-Iraq, Republican Vietnam vet, who reminisced about his Navy experience. He said, the soldiers would return to the boat with shopping bags of pot, and the officers would sit around and get drunk. He saw very little action. Think he's a liar, too?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2005
  18. patsfan13

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    I didn't mention My Lai, don't put words in my mouth. When the crime occured the guilty were arrested and convicted. I do object to the lie put forth by Kerry and his friends that it was common practice for my firends and fellow soldiers to do that.

    Lots of druhs, did you friend murder people as a martter of course as Kerry would have you believe?
     
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No one, except maybe extreme groups suggested it was common practice. What Kerry and others conveyed is that the war was a mess by every measure, and I'm sure you've known, as I have, some Vietnam veterans who never recovered from that war. Like I said above, you have to look at what Kerry says in the context of fighting a superior force -- the U.S. government.
     

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