Carucci: Peppers close to going to NE for #34 [mergedx3]

[TripleOption]

I think they intend to use Peppers as an elephant, if anything. Interesting that the "expert" Carruci quoted has doubts about any easy transition to 3-4 too.




Patriots appear primed to make a deal with Panthers for Peppers

Elephant? Isn't that a Pete Carroll 3-4 term? Yuck.

Anonymous Expert < Bill Belichick

How many "anonymous experts" had their doubts about Randy Moss in New England? I think I can say with absolute certainty that Bill Belichick knows more about the 3-4, Outside Linebackers and football in general than any goddamn anonymous experts any reporter can find. If he thinks Peppers can do it, then they can all just STFU.

 

[TripleOption]

Of course there isn't. I doubt he will fit into the traditional OLB role, so they will need to change the defense to accommodate him rushing from various positions.

Adalius does the same thing. He also rushes from a down End position. Vrabel did it, McGinest did it. It's nothing new.

 

[NE39]

I think I found it. They don't need the cap room to carry the full $17M tender.

The CBA says the following:

*Side Letter 11/1/95: Sec. 1

(3) If a Player Contract provides for an increase in Salary upon the assignment of such contract to another NFL Team, such increase shall be included in the player’s Salary upon such assignment and be attributable to the Team paying the bonus.

It is under section 5 of the CBA portion outlining how contracts are counted on the cap. It means, Carolina can sign him to an extension on with the stipulation he receives his bonus after being traded to the Pats. When he is dealt, the Pats inherit the new contract, pay the bonus and the first year cap hit is whatever is outlined in the extension he signed to facilitate the trade.

The sticking point is if Carolina signs him to an extension prior to July 15 they lose the tag for the life of the extended contract. That would suck for them.

However, under the Franchise section of the CBA is this little nugget:

*Side Letter 1/18/94: Sec. 1

* If a club executes a multiyear agreement with a player designated as a Franchise Player and trades the player the same day to another NFL club, the assignor club will be deemed to have used its franchise designation for only the League Year in which the contract was executed.

So, if:

1) The Pats negotiate an extension with Peppers agent
2) Carolina signs him to that extension with the bonus being paid upon assignment to the Pats in trade
3) He is traded the same day he signs with Carolina
4) Pats pay the bonus and get him signed to the new deal without his tender being a factor.

Thus, the tender he is under would not inhibit any trade.

FYI... the reason I know this is it came into play when the Pats traded Tebucky Jones to New Orleans.

 

[CrazyDave]

Of course there isn't. I doubt he will fit into the traditional OLB role, so they will need to change the defense to accommodate him rushing from various positions.

I agree. We are certainly not locked into anything that would not utilize this guy.
With this guy, you could do a lot. Send him from all over the place. Perpetual chaos.

 

[solman]

Re: Carucci: Peppers close to going to NE for #34 (merged 3x)

right, right....I actually don't remember now, but I think his question was if we could sign wilforkanythingonthedinnertable to a new deal right now, paying him his current '09 salary, but giving him some big bump in 2010, w/the sole purpose of backloading his '09 cap into 2010, as you mention.
and I'm quite sure that's why they do it, although these teams certainly seem fairly clever in working around it.

Its very hard to get much cap savings from Wilfork. If we sign him to a deal that values him fairly, the first year will VERY likely have a higher cap number than Wilfork's current $3M.

 

[eom]

Re: Carucci: Peppers close to going to NE for #34 (merged 3x)

Its very hard to get much cap savings from Wilfork. If we sign him to a deal that values him fairly, the first year will VERY likely have a higher cap number than Wilfork's current $3M.

oh yeah, of course.
I think a lot of people just want to see him extended and are trying to figure how to do it.
that's one reason I'm not sure it'll get done right now --- they'd rather keep him on the '09 books cheap, but I guess we'll see.

 

[solman]

Re: Carucci: Peppers close to going to NE for #34 (merged 3x)

oh yeah, of course.
I think a lot of people just want to see him extended and are trying to figure how to do it.
that's one reason I'm not sure it'll get done right now --- they'd rather keep him on the '09 books cheap, but I guess we'll see.

ARGH. $3M. Not $1M. I'll correct the original post. I'm not sure how that happened.

 

[RayClay]

Elephant? Isn't that a Pete Carroll 3-4 term? Yuck.

Anonymous Expert < Bill Belichick

How many "anonymous experts" had their doubts about Randy Moss in New England? I think I can say with absolute certainty that Bill Belichick knows more about the 3-4, Outside Linebackers and football in general than any goddamn anonymous experts any reporter can find. If he thinks Peppers can do it, then they can all just STFU.

Fred Dean, Charles Haley, Lawrence Taylor, Richard Dent. I don't think so.

Carruci thinks he's an expert apparently. He writes for NFL.com. I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm surprised you think Carroll coined the term elephant when Belichick and Parcells used Taylor and McGinest in that role.

 

[RayClay]

I agree. We are certainly not locked into anything that would not utilize this guy.
With this guy, you could do a lot. Send him from all over the place. Perpetual chaos.

In my feeble understanding, the Elephant position has always been an outstanding De/tweener pass rusher who is allowed to roam and rush from various positions.It's more about utilizing an outstanding player, than a defined position. Peppers would certainly fit that mold.

 

[RayClay]

Adalius does the same thing. He also rushes from a down End position. Vrabel did it, McGinest did it. It's nothing new.

Adalius fits the type, I'm sure they use him like that sometimes. Who said it was new? Of course Vrabel has lined up in different places and he's a former DE. I think both have played traditional LB more, though. I don't think Peppers will, if we get him. We'll see.

 

[TripleOption]

Adalius fits the type, I'm sure they use him like that sometimes. Who said it was new? Of course Vrabel has lined up in different places and he's a former DE. I think both have played traditional LB more, though. I don't think Peppers will, if we get him. We'll see.

Yes, he will. He is not a fit as a 5 tech in a 3-4.

 

[TripleOption]

Fred Dean, Charles Haley, Lawrence Taylor, Richard Dent. I don't think so.

Carruci thinks he's an expert apparently. He writes for NFL.com. I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm surprised you think Carroll coined the term elephant when Belichick and Parcells used Taylor and McGinest in that role.

I never heard Taylor or Dent referred to as an Elephant. Haley maybe, but he played down DE in a 4-3.

I don't think Carroll coined it, I think he brought it from SF and used it around here to describe McGinest, and he too was a DE in a 4-3 or a 4-3 LB depending on the year.

 

[Shockt327]

I think I found it. They don't need the cap room to carry the full $17M tender.

The CBA says the following:



It is under section 5 of the CBA portion outlining how contracts are counted on the cap. It means, Carolina can sign him to an extension on with the stipulation he receives his bonus after being traded to the Pats. When he is dealt, the Pats inherit the new contract, pay the bonus and the first year cap hit is whatever is outlined in the extension he signed to facilitate the trade.

The sticking point is if Carolina signs him to an extension prior to July 15 they lose the tag for the life of the extended contract. That would suck for them.

However, under the Franchise section of the CBA is this little nugget:



So, if:

1) The Pats negotiate an extension with Peppers agent
2) Carolina signs him to that extension with the bonus being paid upon assignment to the Pats in trade
3) He is traded the same day he signs with Carolina
4) Pats pay the bonus and get him signed to the new deal without his tender being a factor.

Thus, the tender he is under would not inhibit any trade.

FYI... the reason I know this is it came into play when the Pats traded Tebucky Jones to New Orleans.

Solid work here.

 

[JSn]

Tomase has cited a source in a fresh article. We know all about him and sources, but anyway...

He maintains he has not fully tapped his potential, and the idea of playing for Bill Belichick excites him, according to a source close to Peppers, who added that the former North Carolina college basketball standout brings a warrior mentality to the field and is known for letting his play say more than his words.

Peppers is suitably intrigued by the Patriots mystique and would be a perfect fit in the locker room, where he’s a professional, low-key presence. He was a captain of the Panthers.

Report: Patriots in talks to get Panthers DE Julius Peppers - BostonHerald.com

Really not a terrible article.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Solid work here.

Yup -- good to have some solid info.

 

[RayClay]

I never heard Taylor or Dent referred to as an Elephant. Haley maybe, but he played down DE in a 4-3.

I don't think Carroll coined it, I think he brought it from SF and used it around here to describe McGinest, and he too was a DE in a 4-3 or a 4-3 LB depending on the year.

Not hard to find Taylor described that way. You'll have to take my word on Dent because I heard it and a description during the broadcast build up to the 1986 Super Bowl. I remember clearly, because I hadn't heard the term before, or at least not memorably. I loved Joe Montana and the offense, but wasn't up on SF's D much, being mostly a homer.

Not being an X an O guy, my sense is it's generally an excuse to allow a great pass rusher to attack from different positions. Obviously responsibilities need to be covered and I don't think it's the same at all on different teams. Kind of a catchall phrase.

 

[SVN]

isnt seymour entering his last yr in contract. it could also be a replacement for him instead of just converting him to a LB.

 

[RayClay]

isnt seymour entering his last yr in contract. it could also be a replacement for him instead of just converting him to a LB.

Peppers isn't coming here to take on double teams, that's for sure.

 

[DocE]

Wow, 44 pages (and probably more by the time anyone reads my post) of discussion on Peppers.

I read through a random 8 pages or so to dry to get some variety of opinions.

My thoughts:

1. If the Patriots do get Peppers for the no.34, it throws bad feelings I have about the Cassel trade out the window. I would have been very happy getting Peppers for Cassel and Vrabel.

2. The compensation doesn't seem right. If the Chiefs got a no.1 and 2 no.3's for Jared Allen last year, how do the Panthers settle for a high 2nd rounder? Allen is in the leagues substance program and was one strike away from a major suspension when the Vikings traded for him (I believe he's stayed clean long enough now that he's no longer looking at automatic suspension per league policy). I can't see Peppers going for roughly half of what Allen was worth. Then again, I couldn't see Cassel going for roughly half what Matt Schaub was worth.

3. I think one of the more interesting thoughts I read in this thread was the idea that the Panthers may have leaked this trade info to attempt to drive up the price on Peppers. I think that's a very plausible scenario.

4. I've wanted Peppers since he made it known he wanted out of Carolina, but now I am having second thoughts. Not about the player, but I worry about the Patriots being too good on paper. I know it sounds crazy, but I see the Patriots being everyones pick to run through the league if they acquire Peppers. I see the media annointing that Pats in pre-season and it seems like that type of scenario is just destined to end badly for us.

 

[TripleOption]

Not hard to find Taylor described that way. You'll have to take my word on Dent because I heard it and a description during the broadcast build up to the 1986 Super Bowl. I remember clearly, because I hadn't heard the term before, or at least not memorably. I loved Joe Montana and the offense, but wasn't up on SF's D much, being mostly a homer.

Not being an X an O guy, my sense is it's generally an excuse to allow a great pass rusher to attack from different positions. Obviously responsibilities need to be covered and I don't think it's the same at all on different teams. Kind of a catchall phrase.

The term Elephant was a 49er thing. LT wasn't an "Elephant" and neither was Dent. It's a 4-3 term for a pass rusher they mover around (DE). LT was a 3-4 OLB and Dent was a DE in the 46.

You may have heard it misused by a sportscaster, but I don't recall it from the 80's. It became popular with Haley.