Carriker and a Safety

[muaythaipatriot]

Carriker is not gonna be there when we select and im allset on trading 2 first round picks for him if we are gonna trade lets get Nelson or landry. Nelson can cover very well probably better than most first round corners someone ounce said
" water covers 75% of earth And REGGIE NELSON covers the outher 25%"

 

[PATSNUTme]

You're going by what you watched on "Path To The Draft", when it comes to Willis? This little youtube video will show you more than that, which is not a lot. I watch "Path To The Draft" too, but I think I remember Mayock saying Willis could play LB in a 3-4 scheme? I don't understand your point about playing weight. Willis dropped pounds for the combine, but he plays at 244-248lbs, and has the frame to play at around 260-270lbs.

Great highlight film. But they never show the low-lights and I'm sure there are some.

But, look at who he's doing that against. LSU, Auburn, Bama very good teams.

 

[DaBruinz]

What do you think about the 2 for 2 deal I have in mind? I think that might be the best option right now.

I don't think its the best option. Honestly, the best option is trading down from 24 and picking up an extra 3rd round pick.

I'd much rather the Pats trade #24 for the Cardinals 2nd and 3rd round picks or for Houston's 2nd and 3rd round picks than trade UP.

Now, my thinking is that this is better in the long run.

Or, trade for a 2nd this year and a 2nd next year.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

You're going by what you watched on "Path To The Draft", when it comes to Willis? This little youtube video will show you more than that, which is not a lot. I watch "Path To The Draft" too, but I think I remember Mayock saying Willis could play LB in a 3-4 scheme? I don't understand your point about playing weight. Willis dropped pounds for the combine, but he plays at 244-248lbs, and has the frame to play at around 260-270lbs.

You think Willis has the frame for 260? My eyes deceive me then. As for his playing weight, Ole Miss lists him at 240: http://olemisssports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=2600&ATCLID=542726. He weighed in at the Senior Bowl and Combine at 242 and looked ripped, hard to see where the extra beef is going to go.

I've encountered a number of articles and discussions that describe Ole' Miss as a Cover-2 defense. I believe Willis himself noted they played Cover-2 when asked if he could play a 3-4. He's a very talented LB, but what little I've seen doesn't remind me of the guys I watch on Sunday playing in the Patriots' 3-4. He looks more like Ray Lewis chasing around behind his defensive wall. The kid's good, I just don't see him fitting here, maybe San Diego if they keep Wade's 3-4. I've been wrong about the Pats' picks in the past, so I'm not breaking any new ground if he's their man.

I've seen the same amount of tape on Willis as I have Carriker, Senior Bowl stuff and the odd Mayock tape analysis. I can see Carriker fitting into what the Pats do on Sunday, I see Willis as a better fit for Buffalo, Carolina, or Chicago.

 

[captain stone]

Willis dropped pounds for the combine, but he plays at 244-248lbs, and has the frame to play at around 260-270lbs.

How can he play at 260-270, when he's not even 6'2"?

I would be thrilled if he could maintain 245-250 throughout the season.

 

[BelichickFan]

How can he play at 260-270, when he's not even 6'2"?

Lamar Woodley is 6'1", 270 and still runs well so it can be done.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Tedy is listed at 6-1 247. Why does someone have to be 260- 270 to play ILB for the Patriots?

 

[sebman2112]

How can he play at 260-270, when he's not even 6'2"?

I would be thrilled if he could maintain 245-250 throughout the season.

How heavy, and how tall is AD again?

 

[hobbsownscoles]

Carriker is never going to be a lb

 

[ayjackson]

I don't think it's easy to find a team that would trade it's second and third rounder for a late first. It would be very dependent on the dynamics of draft day.

Another 2 for 2 trade option is to move into the 11 to 13 range in exchange for our two firsts and also getting back a third rounder.

We could then select Willis and a couple of safeties in the third. If we got Willis in the first at all, I'd be happy with just one LB the rest of the way. Ideally, I'd like to pick up DeOssie and Waters on day two.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Tedy is listed at 6-1 247. Why does someone have to be 260- 270 to play ILB for the Patriots?

Yes, Tedy has been listed at 247 and is the lightest successful ILB since I've been retired with enough time and resources to devote to details. The thing with Tedy is his style, he makes OGs miss and slides by them, TJ and Vrabel are more confrontational stacking the OGs in the holes and using their hands to disengage - they are also taller with longer arms. Beisel and Brown would stack, but had less success disengaging, they also were a little slow about filling creating gaps for the runners.

I've had limited exposure to Willis, I see a ripped body that doesn't seem to have the same squat frame that Tedy or a Woodley have to carry extra weight. If he can play as slippery as Tedy (or Zach Thomas to name another small guy who makes OL miss in tight quarters) he can play the 3-4. Vilma supposedly studied Tedy when preparing himself for his new role last season, I don't think he achieved that slipperiness.

I try to picture Mankins or Neal taking on one of these prospective ILBs. Willis giving up 60+ lbs. and having shorter arms is going to have more of a problem doing that then he did working against the talent in the SEC - they may be the toughest in college as a conference, but they are not the NFL (excepting maybe Oakland). So I have a hard time projecting him at 250-ish routinely taking on OGs. It's easy to see him as the next Ray Lewis flying to the ball.

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't think it's easy to find a team that would trade it's second and third rounder for a late first. It would be very dependent on the dynamics of draft day.

Another 2 for 2 trade option is to move into the 11 to 13 range in exchange for our two firsts and also getting back a third rounder.

We could then select Willis and a couple of safeties in the third. If we got Willis in the first at all, I'd be happy with just one LB the rest of the way. Ideally, I'd like to pick up DeOssie and Waters on day two.

DeOssie isn't going to last past the 3rd round.

Waters might be able to be had as a UDFA unless he's actually able to participate in his private work-out April 3rd.

 

[patchick]

I don't think it's easy to find a team that would trade it's second and third rounder for a late first. It would be very dependent on the dynamics of draft day.

Another 2 for 2 trade option is to move into the 11 to 13 range in exchange for our two firsts and also getting back a third rounder.

Hmm...so far all of these scenarios stick to 2007. If I were to make a wild prediction, it would be something like #24 for 2nd-rounders this year and next. That lets the Pats move value out of this weak draft, and doesn't force another team to completely denude this year's draft.

 

[ayjackson]

DeOssie isn't going to last past the 3rd round.

Waters might be able to be had as a UDFA unless he's actually able to participate in his private work-out April 3rd.

Well there's no point in us waiting for UDFA if we keep our picks. Waters looks a good investment in the sixth and if we really like him, I'd take him in the fourth.

As for DeOssie, I think we'll only take one LB on day one. If it's Willis in rd one, then hopefully DeOssie makes it to Sunday.

 

[BelichickFan]

DeOssie could easily make it to day two. A small college, low level of competition guy who is a better athlete than football player. I could see him going on day one but could see it the other way too . . . with a different last name I doubt he'd be a day one guy.

 

[captain stone]

How heavy, and how tall is AD again?

Seb, I smell what you and BelichickFan are cooking.

My point is, that Woodley and Adalius Thomas played DE at 265-270 while in college. Willis, to my admittedly limited knowledge, has never topped 250. Can he add another 10+ lbs. in the pros? Sure, but going from possibly 250-255 to 260-270 is a leap of faith that I'm not quite ready to take.

That being said, I still think (hope?) that Willis can successfully convert from 4-3 MLB to 3-4 ILB.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Seb, I smell what you and BelichickFan are cooking.

My point is, that Woodley and Adalius Thomas played DE at 265-270 while in college. Willis, to my admittedly limited knowledge, has never topped 250. Can he add another 10+ lbs. in the pros? Sure, but going from possibly 250-255 to 260-270 is a leap of faith that I'm not quite ready to take.

That being said, I still think (hope?) that Willis can successfully convert from 4-3 MLB to 3-4 ILB.

Huh you're saying 250 is too small to play ILB in the Pats system?
Why do people talk like Vilma could be playing ILB for the Pats then? The guy is 230-235 tops dripping wet.
I happen to think 250 for an ILB is fine as long as it is 250 lbs of muscle. I expect any college linebacker coming into the pros to need to dedicate more time to the strength and conditioning program before they can step in as a starter for the Pats.

 

[sebman2112]

Huh you're saying 250 is too small to play ILB in the Pats system?
Why do people talk like Vilma could be playing ILB for the Pats then? The guy is 230-235 tops dripping wet.
I happen to think 250 for an ILB is fine as long as it is 250 lbs of muscle. I expect any college linebacker coming into the pros to need to dedicate more time to the strength and conditioning program before they can step in as a starter for the Pats.

I know. Bruschi is something like 6'1 244-248lbs and for some reason a guy who already weighs in at 240+ out of College with longer arms than Bruschi can't play ILB for the Pats? A lot of college players gain weight when they enter the league, and if you look at his frame he could carry even more weight. I am not sure he needs to, but he could.

 

[captain stone]

Huh you're saying 250 is too small to play ILB in the Pats system?

Not at all, VJC. 250 is plenty big enough for a pats ILB.

Earlier in this thread, Sebman intimated that Patrick Willis has the frame to play at around 260-270. I questioned this projection, because at a shade under 6'1", Willis has never played above 250, to my knowledge. Sebman and BelichickFan then gave me the examples of Adalius Thomas and Lamar Woodley, who are both of similar height and who both play at 265-270. I rebutted that those were weights at which both men played while still at college, a > 20 lb. difference over Willis. In fact, I would be thrilled if he could maintain 245-250 throughout the season.

 

[DaBruinz]

By all accounts, Willis was playing college ball in the 235 range. He put on 7 lbs to get to the 242 range for the Combine. Now, you guys are talking about him putting on another 10 lbs. So, he'd be playing 15-20 lbs heavier than he's ever played at before.

One thing you guys either don't understand or are over-looking is that just because one player is 6'2 and 270 doesn't mean another player can put on that type of weight. It all depends on your bone structure. If Willis doesn't have the bone mass to support the weight, he won't be able to put it on. It doesn't matter if he's the same height as A.D. it just won't happen.

I see there being 2 different positions for ILB for the Patriots. You have the WILB, who is filled by Tedy Bruschi and you have the Run Stuffer, SILB, that was filled by Ted Johnson and then Junior Seau. For the WILB, I think that the Pats are looking for someone in the 6'-6'2 range who weights between 240-255 lbs. Someone who is quick, strong, and has the abilty to play zone coverage. For the SILB position, filled by Johnson, I think that the Pats look for someone who is primarly a run stuffer, but has adequate skills to cover a TE if needed.