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Carlos Dunlap vs Jermaine Cunningham

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by patsfan55, Sep 12, 2011.

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  1. patsfan55

    patsfan55 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #95 Jersey

    A lot of you in here told me to calm down when I freaked out that we selected Cunningham over his more accomplished teammate Dunlap. Most told me to stop looking at the highlights and that Cunningham was the steadier of the players. Mike Reiss told me Dunlap wasn't the "type of player" the Pats would look at. Well, after what Dunlap did at the end of last year, and how much havock he wreaked today for Colt McCoy, as well as the fact that we'll be running more 4 man fronts, would anyone like to have that pick back? I know I would.
     
  2. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I thought Cunningham played very well last year, but Yeah i'm starting to think passing on Dunlap was a mistake.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2011
  3. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    One has been playing as a defensive end the other as a linebacker.
     
  4. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I was a big Dunlap fan in the draft, and was plenty surprised when they took Cunningham instead. That said, I thought Cunningham had a pretty good rookie year -- and 2010 was the Pats' leadership-focuses offseason where they cleared out the malcontents and drafted a full slate of team captains, to good result. If that's what ruled out Dunlap, it's understandable.
     
  5. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The right pick was made at the time. There are a hundred draft hypotheticals that make much more sense than worrying about taking a guy who fits the defense that they weren't even running at the time.
     
  6. NinjaZX6R

    NinjaZX6R In the Starting Line-Up

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    Carlos Dunlap 6'6 285lbs ~
    JC-6'3 250lbs.

    When JC was taken, he fit in the mold of a 34 OLB. Dunlap had no certain fit in a 3-4 defense. He was too big for a 34 OLB and if you look at his body, he is too lean to fit as a 3-4 DE.

    Dunlap fit well in the Bengals Defense because of his weight. They play, mostly, a 4-3 under defense and he is their 43LDE and switches to 43 DT on 3rd downs. Their LDE usually weighs around 270-290lbs. Justin Smith is a good example and so is Odom. Smith playing weight w. the Bengals was around 290. Odom was around 275lbs.

    BB liked JC when he came down to UF during JC's sophomore year. At the time of the pick, we ran a 34 defense. Now, if we were a 4-3 U defense back in 2010, you could make an argument.
     
  7. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not sure where you got those numbers. At the Combine Cunningham weight in at 266, Dunlap at 278. That's just a 12 lb. difference, pretty much to be expected given the 2 1/2" height difference.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2011
  8. BillBelichickFan79

    BillBelichickFan79 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Cunningham looked good at times for the Pats last year, but he's not made the impact that Dunlap has.

    It's the same thing every year. Fans try to convince themselves that their team made the right choice by listing the alleged positives of their new player vs the alleged negatives of the player the team didn't choose. For all those saying he can't fit in a 3-4, then why you did you want Peppers so badly two years ago? How is Mario Williams possibly playing OLB? There is no evidence that Dunlap couldn't have played in the 3-4. It was just an excuse for why the Pats passed on him.

    I actually liked Cunningham in that draft and he was solid in limited play last year, but I was surprised too. Dunlap was the consensus better player in all pre-draft talk among scouts/media members. Dunlap was the bigger difference maker when you watched Florida play. Dunlap had that freakish size and athleticism that guys like Mario Williams and Peppers display.

    But the Patriots are smarter than everyone else, right? They saw something no one else did and took Cunningham. It's the same thing every year. It's like when the Pats traded down for Butler rather than taking Vontae Davis who was more highly touted and clearly more physical when you watched them play. Davis had a bad attitude and poor technique, while Butler was so athletic, etc. It's the same thing when the Pats took Ron Brace. He was the one clearing the space for BJ Raji to wreak havoc.

    That's just the way beat writers and fans think. They want their team's decision to be the right one. I can guarantee you Jets fans were saying the same thing when they took Gholston. Oh he fits perfectly and Keith Rivers and Sedrick Ellis are just overhyped USC prospects that don't fit the scheme. Dominque Rodgers Cromartie and McKelvin didn't play tough enough competition. Etc.
     
  9. PatsFanStnfrd

    PatsFanStnfrd Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    As someone who started a thread on this very subject in June (the dogdays of the lock out) (see:http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ke-bypassing-dunlap-cunningham-last-year.html), I believe the question of whether BB made a mistake in choosing Cunningham over Dunlap is very much a legitimate question. And of course, the answer is yet to unfold. The fact that Dunlap plays well while Cunningham is nursing numerous injuries does not aid the latter's case.

    Of course if you read the posters on that thread, you will soon learn that there are some on this board who fancy themselves as the judges of players who "fit" BB's system as they define it and those players who are deemed "unfit" or "unsuitable". These posters by virtue of their voluminous posts (and their clear passion for the Pats) have set themselves up as the interpreters of BB's defensive philosophy and scheme for the rest of us. In fact, fortunately for Pats fans everywhere, BB turns out less wedded to any particular defensive ideology/scheme and quite eager to change what is NOT working and to experiment/innovate the defensive philosophy this season to one that is aggressive, proactive and effective. This must be disconcerting to some of BB's fans on this board who vigorously defended BB's orthodoxy. Maybe they don't know him as well as they thought.

    BB has shown that he is capable of changing. He recognizes his mistakes and importantly gets rid of them (or rectifies them) as he did with Butler and others. I am sure that with another year he will evaluate Cunningham and act accordingly.

    I for one am rooting for Cunningham to prove BB right. For Cunningham, this year is "show me" time.
     
  10. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    For all the hate on Cunningham relative to Dunlap, remember that he did have more total pressures than Dunlap a year ago. Now, he had fewer sacks and more just "hurries," but he impacted the QB more than Dunlap did.

    My new favorite stat, though, is 7. That would be the number of tackles on running plays that Dunlap had last season. Cunningham had 31. And I'd be willing to bet that Cunningham dropped into coverage around 10 times as much as Dunlap did last season.
     
  11. BillBelichickFan79

    BillBelichickFan79 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    You do realize that Dunlap was not even active for four of the first five games and then when he began playing he saw most of his snaps as a nickel-rusher only? He did not play much on early downs at all until very late in the season. The point is the Pats have sorely needed a pass rusher for the past 3+ years and even if they only got a guy that played sub to begin his career, he'd still play around 60% of the snaps.

    The same things were said about Matthews. You can throw out all the stats you want. There just aren't many guys like Terrell Suggs who can play the run as well as they can pass rush.

    But when you watch both play Cunningham and Dunlap play, it's obvious who the bigger game-changer is. It's Dunlap. He wreaks havoc as a pass rusher. He can change the game with one play. Cunningham is a nice solid player that almost reminds you of Colvin. Pretty good, does his job, can occasionally get some solid pressures. But not a game-changer.
     
  12. Batman

    Batman Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    #24 Jersey

    And in other news the jets wod like to take back taking chad Pennington in the first round of the 2000 draft.
     
  13. randomk1

    randomk1 In the Starting Line-Up

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    To hell with Dunlap. At this point i want to see Cunningham actually say healthy and get on the field. Dude was injured all of last year and now he has the same injury before the season has even begun..
     
  14. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative In the Starting Line-Up

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  15. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He missed 1 game last year. If you are going to rip the guy, at least find accurate reasons to do it.
     
  16. randomk1

    randomk1 In the Starting Line-Up

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    Was it just 1 game? I do recall him being almost invisible later in the year and i put it down to him being injured. And i'm not ripping on the guy. I think he has potential but i want to see him stay healthy.
     
  17. Froob

    Froob Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #32 Jersey

    I hope this guy improves didn't seem too much better in the preseason. Hope he's not the next Darius Buter/Wheatley/Brace(?) . He can get to the qb he just can't tackle worth ****.
     
  18. TheComeback

    TheComeback 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    And of course, we'll always have fans who accuse anyone unwilling to label a second year player "bust" as being a "homer."

    Allow me to re-quote Sciz for effect:

    People aren't satisfied with Cunningham strictly because of his stats.

    There's a segment of Patriots fans that take delight in criticizing the team whenever possible, even when said criticism has no basis in reality (see above). It baffles me.

    I don't think anyone here has ever claimed the Patriots are perfect; but yet everyday we have people trying to actively PROVE that they're not, that Belichick is overrated, he can't draft, his schemes suck, and that no on in the organization has an explanation for any superficially strange-looking move they might make. And then they want the "homers" to come out and admit how wrong they were about the Pats.

    And that's what it boils down to. All these people, from Borges to Felger, have a bone to pick with Belichick because they've piled on him for one thing, only to be proven wrong time and time again.

    These people think they're smarter than the "homer" fans, but in reality they're even more impatient and delusional. Who passes judgment on a second round pick after just one year? And as shown above, they don't really pay attention to what the players even do--they just look at stats, see no sacks, and assume the guy sucks.
     
  19. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    These threads are nothing but to stroke armchair GM's ego. A few things:

    - Dunlap is successful in the Bengals system. Doesn't mean he would be here. The Bengals' system on both side of the ball is very simple (just ask Ochocinco) while the Pats' are complex.
    - It is week 1 of year 2 for both players. It is a little early to draw definitive conclusions.
    - Watching that game, shouldn't the Browns fans say that they should have drafted McCourty than Joe Haden who got burnt quite a few times yesterday.
    - Where are the "The Pats should have drafted Jerry Hughes over McCourty" people? Hughes was a healthy deactivation. Funny how after a big game by their predraft binkie, they start this thread; but we never hear the people start a thread admitting they were wrong about other pick. I am sure that many people who are crying about the Pats not taking Dunlap that they wanted the Pats to take a huge bust and the Pats were lucky that they weren't picking.

    Get over it. The draft is a crapshoot no matter how good you are at drafting especially after the first round. Both Dunlap and Cunningham were second round picks for a reason. If either was a guaranteed sure player, they would have been high first round picks. The Pats had arguable the best 2010 draft out of any team in the league. They have four or five starters (McCourty, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Spikes, and Cunningham) with two of them being legitimate ROY candidates last year (McCourty and Gronk). McCourty led all rookies in INTs. Gronk was second in league history for most TDs for a rookie TE (only Ditka did better and I hear he had a good career). Mesko was a great punter last year (although not tested). Yet people still want to find a way to trash that draft.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2011
  20. JackBauer

    JackBauer Pro Bowl Player

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    True that. It's amazing to me that other teams besides the Patriots sometimes draft good players.
     
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