Cardona cleared to play, apparently

[MassPats38]

They could defer his commitment. I don't see the logic in screwing somebody over here. Yeah, they can make him lose this opportunity- why would they want to? And the military busts it's own contracts all the time. If they want to beat the commitment drum they should clean their own house first.

The guy gets a one in a million opportunity, it's not hard to come up with a dozen different ways he could serve the Navy without losing it.

What do you mean by "bust its contracts"? Are you talking about DOD contracting or contracts to serve the country as a soldier or sailor?

I noted above they can defer it. That means toll, and that is not for an extended period of time (sure, two years).

The service academies are different. I was ROTC. Those are reserve commissions while the academies are active commissions. If you have never served it would be tough to put the code those students live by into words, but futures that do not focus on military service are not high on the list.

By your logic, the officers may as well do a job fair and opt out if they can qualify for a lucrative career at Intel or Microsoft or go for a career in entertainment. They could still do reserve weekends. The remaining officers lacking the exceptional opportunities could then complete the extensive military training required of officers and risk their lives overseas, as everyone after year 1 agrees to do in accepting the free education.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Seriously? The Navy needs to "clean their own house first"?? The Navy is an institution...and a venerable institution at that. And having just celebrated Memorial Day, we should all remember that many sailors gave their lives for our freedom, to include the freedom to post unfettered opinions on message boards. However it should also be understood that our military institutions are composed of members taken right from our own society, representing the full gamut of societal norms/behaviors, and therefore they may not appear to be perfect when making decisions at the most molecular of levels.

Bottom line: if he makes the 53 man squad, this won't be an issue.

Maybe if I wasnt a 20 year veteran I would find such romanticized notions more compelling. I don't have much problem criticizing a military department when it's appropriate. I'd much rather work short than with someone whose doesn't want to be there. And it wouldn't kill them to apply a bit of common sense when something like this comes up, that's all I have to say. Have a good evening.

 

[ChesBay]

They could still do reserve weekends. The remaining officers lacking the exceptional opportunities could then complete the extensive military training required of officers and risk their lives overseas, as everyone after year 1 agrees to do in accepting the free education.

Well said, MassPats38.

Actually it's after year two...and before the first academic class of your junior (3rd) year. Once you attend that first class, you have made the commitment...but up until that point you can resign with no obligation. Since most football players probably have a pretty good idea (after their sophomore year) whether they have pro potential, or not, I would think most would depart at that juncture (and many have done exactly that). So it's actually a pretty fair system that's in place.

 

[primetime]

Good point. What's the difference between going to Navy and getting a scholarship from a state school?

A military academy education costs about $200,000-250,000 per student. It's not comparable to a scholarship at a state school (though I'd also argue it's a relative pittance given the defense budget). On the other hand, a full ROTC scholarship at a private university could run about that, and ROTC students have the option to go into the reserves. I don't see any reason Cardona shouldn't be given that option.

 

[MassPats38]

Well said, MassPats38.

Actually it's after year two...and before the first academic class of your junior (3rd) year. Once you attend that first class, you have made the commitment...but up until that point you can resign with no obligation. Since most football players probably have a pretty good idea (after their sophomore year) whether they have pro potential, or not, I would think most would depart at that juncture (and many have done exactly that). So it's actually a pretty fair system that's in place.

I thought they held to the ROTC standard of year one as well (those commitments were named the "one and run" previously the "two and screw"). You learn something new every day.

 

[nabwong]

Right, I don't see why they can't let him play out his 4 year rookie contract, then serve a couple years after, and be free to go back to football after. Having a professional player from the academies would give good visibility, wouldn't it? I know he's a long snapper, but still.

Exactly! This way, the navy doesn't even have to pay the NFL to advertise. In fact, the NFL is paying them!

 

[MassPats38]

A military academy education costs about $200,000-250,000 per student. It's not comparable to a scholarship at a state school (though I'd also argue it's a relative pittance given the defense budget). On the other hand, a full ROTC scholarship at a private university could run about that, and ROTC students have the option to go into the reserves. I don't see any reason Cardona shouldn't be given that option.

Not true, unless you have some understanding of a regulation that may have authorized it that I have never seen. Officers understand they may be directed to the reserves (during drawdown periods) but the understanding for Navy ROTC is the same as the academies (they recently increased the period of active service to match the academy requirement).

The services would actually prefer to limit scholarship candidates if there are not active duty billets to serve. Army ROTC happened to be in a major drawdown period when I was commissioned in the Navy. Those guys ended up in the inactive reserve, and were not particularly thrilled about it because they had no job to fall back on and ended up jumping into the typical job market way late. Since I was commissioned more than 2 decades ago, I have never heard of an Navy ROTC commissioning class with an invitation to join the reserve. The commission type (USN vs. USNR) is an administrative designation, not a service difference.

 

[Gwedd]

Not true, unless you have some understanding of a regulation that may have authorized it that I have never seen. Officers understand they may be directed to the reserves (during drawdown periods) but the understanding for Navy ROTC is the same as the academies (they recently increased the period of active service to match the academy requirement).

The services would actually prefer to limit scholarship candidates if there are not active duty billets to serve. Army ROTC happened to be in a major drawdown period when I was commissioned in the Navy. Those guys ended up in the inactive reserve, and were not particularly thrilled about it because they had no job to fall back on and ended up jumping into the typical job market way late. Since I was commissioned more than 2 decades ago, I have never heard of an Navy ROTC commissioning class with an invitation to join the reserve. The commission type (USN vs. USNR) is an administrative designation, not a service difference.

I was in Army ROTC in college. My junior year, the class ahead of me graduated 28 guys. Not ONE of them got a combat arms commission. There were QM, Ordnance, etc, 4-5 were given reserve assignments and several didn't even get a commission offered to them. A "thanks for playing" sort of thing. After seeing what happened there (Vietnam was drawing down, etc) I beat feet over to the Navy side and ended up leaving college and going enlisted. It was the only way to get a flying gig right then (I was an AW, got assigned to P-3's and ASWOC/TSC billets) so I jumped at the chance and never regretted it.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

What do you mean by "bust its contracts"? Are you talking about DOD contracting or contracts to serve the country as a soldier or sailor?

I noted above they can defer it. That means toll, and that is not for an extended period of time (sure, two years).

The service academies are different. I was ROTC. Those are reserve commissions while the academies are active commissions. If you have never served it would be tough to put the code those students live by into words, but futures that do not focus on military service are not high on the list.

By your logic, the officers may as well do a job fair and opt out if they can qualify for a lucrative career at Intel or Microsoft or go for a career in entertainment. They could still do reserve weekends. The remaining officers lacking the exceptional opportunities could then complete the extensive military training required of officers and risk their lives overseas, as everyone after year 1 agrees to do in accepting the free education.

I mean contracts with Joe. They do stop loss, they force people to change jobs, they break promises of duty stations, specialties, dwell time, keeping married couples within a certain distance. They routinely do all manner of shady s*** while invoking the "We can do what we want" clause. Yet when something like this comes up they can't use that clause and they stand behind the "you have a contract" line. Yes contracts are really important to them until they're inconvenient. The military leadership isn't some paragon of virtue, writing worthless contracts isn't even among the shadier stuff I've seen.

So, I don't see the issue in a policy that says if you get drafted in the pros you can defer your commitment or outright get out of it with repayment if you want to. I would apply the policy to anyone who gets offered a job that pays 5 times or more than the military. If someone is forced to serve in the military against their wishes when they are just counting the days until they leave they will be miserable officers. And there's already plenty of miserable officers without adding more. Maybe if WW3 breaks out I'd rethink such a policy, but I'm not too inclined to beat the contract drum when the military has shown it doesn't value these contracts very much anyways.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Two fun facts:

Cardona is at least the fifth Navy grad that Belichick has signed, but the only one that he actually drafted.

And, FWIW, Cardona is actually the first Navy grad drafted in 20 years.

 

[supafly]

Two fun facts:

Cardona is at least the fifth Navy grad that Belichick has signed, but the only one that he actually drafted.

And, FWIW, Cardona is actually the first Navy grad drafted in 20 years.

Yeah, that really puts the loss of the 2017 fourth round pick into perspective, in the sense that it really shows how Belichick will take chances at that point in the draft. Granted, Cardona went in the 5th, but still...

 

[Marinlik]

Listen, I never like to question Bill, but first off, why in the world would you spend a fifth-round draft pick on a Long Snapper, who pretty much could've been a UDFA singing, and secondly, why spend it on a guy who may have to leave the team at some point in the near future?

Seems like there's now controversy, however small it may be, for what should otherwise be the most controversy-free position.

A fifth-round Cornerback would look might fine on the roster over Cardona. No offense to him, as he could possibly end up being the league's greatest LS of all-time, who knows, but that is not a position you invest a solid draft pick into when there's a glaring need on this roster.

Rant over.

If you have a glaring need at a position, then you should probably adress that need before the fifth round. Especially at corner where it's more probable than not that a corner drafted in the fifth round would be a the end of the roster and mainly play special teams. Drafting a corner in the fifth round would most likely do nothing for our problem of missing a #1 cb. We did have a glaring need at LS too, and I'm glad that we did something to fix it. Aikens was pretty bad and his snaps where all over the place. I'd rather not have our season end because Aikens makes a bad snap in the post season that gives the opponents an easy score and a win.

Obviously BB didn't love the CB talent in the draft, or else he would have probably drafted one before the 7th round.

 

[primetime]

Not true, unless you have some understanding of a regulation that may have authorized it that I have never seen. Officers understand they may be directed to the reserves (during drawdown periods) but the understanding for Navy ROTC is the same as the academies (they recently increased the period of active service to match the academy requirement).

The services would actually prefer to limit scholarship candidates if there are not active duty billets to serve. Army ROTC happened to be in a major drawdown period when I was commissioned in the Navy. Those guys ended up in the inactive reserve, and were not particularly thrilled about it because they had no job to fall back on and ended up jumping into the typical job market way late. Since I was commissioned more than 2 decades ago, I have never heard of an Navy ROTC commissioning class with an invitation to join the reserve. The commission type (USN vs. USNR) is an administrative designation, not a service difference.

http://archive.airforcetimes.com/ar...-options-allow-ROTC-grads-enter-Guard-Reserve

That's for the AF but I believe similar provisions now exist for Army and Navy as well.

The Total Force Commissioning Process, announced July 10, “allows us to provide opportunities for high quality cadets to continue serving, albeit in our Reserve components,” Lt. Gen. Sam Cox, the Air Force deputy chief of staff for manpower, personnel and services, said in the release. “Unfortunately, given budget reductions, the Air Force must reduce its active duty force, limiting the number of cadets we can accept into the active component.”

 

[RunAmok]

It does create a recruiting issue between the Academies when Navy will release players for the NFL and Army will not.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

It does create a recruiting issue between the Academies when Navy will release players for the NFL and Army will not.

It does, but let's not forget that the academies aren't exactly interchangeable. Someone who wants to go to Army isn't going to go to Navy to play football if he has no desire to serve on a ship.

 

[MassPats38]

http://archive.airforcetimes.com/ar...-options-allow-ROTC-grads-enter-Guard-Reserve

That's for the AF but I believe similar provisions now exist for Army and Navy as well.

I couldn't find any similar statement on the Navy. The Navy and Marines tend to have a 24/7 ready posture due to the nature of the two. They deploy with or without wars. The Army and Air Force are more geared toward long-term conflicts, and thus tend to show up overseas after the Navy and Marines. That makes the draw-downs a little more predictable for the Navy and Marines.

The Air Force appears to be doing a voluntary version of the involuntary Army scenario I described above (a better path for those who may have had a change of heart with active duty options - in the case I described in the 1990s, the officers were all sent to the inactive reserve, which leaves them in an almost permanent state of recall to active duty without the benefits).

I don't claim to read the current news on Navy ROTC commitments (they bumped it up to 5 years from 4, which is a change from when I went through it). I still get the headline information from Navy personnel, and that would definitely seem to be newsworthy if it happened. If you had heard something, then I would love to hear it.

And please don't read what I wrote above as suggesting a guy given a license to play professional football is dishonorable in some way. I doubt anyone with a service history would care. It was more to express there is little unfair to Cardona in the absence of permission given the unique nature of the academies. The claim they should just be permitted to leave to pursue some cherry job opportunity implies a misunderstanding of military service, why people choose to accept that difficult life, and why it is not analogous to typical job interviews at non-military schools. There is more to it than weighing business niceties and bottom lines. It is the nature of this all volunteer military service, and why people choose to go that route. Hopefully I made that clear.

 

[RunAmok]

A couple of other things I did not consider on the Academies (from an online article):

All else being equal, the Naval Academy has two distinct advantages on top of simply being the best program right now. The first is location: downtown Annapolis vs. middle-of-nowhere Highland Falls is a no-brainer. The second is far more important: the Naval Academy is the only school of the three that can offer pretty much anything that the other schools do after graduation. Want to fly jets? You can do that. Be a ground-pounder? Ditto. Drive ships? Submarines? Jump out of airplanes? Drive tanks? Yes to all of them. The same can’t be said of USMA or USAFA, barring the rare interservice transfer. To an 18-year old kid, this is huge. Making a commitment to the military can seem intimidating enough without having to rule out service options from the get-go. Having four years to to make an educated decision about what’s appealing to you isn’t just comforting; it’s smart. Why burn bridges? Of course, all other things are rarely equal. There’s always some difference in coaching, facilities, and the whims of individual recruits. But this advantage plays out over time. Of the 14 men’s sports in which Army and Navy compete against each other, Navy leads the all-time series in 12 of them (with one tie).

 

[ChesBay]

Thanks for that perspective RunAmok. That's how I saw it too (albeit as a 17 year old!).

I can say with confidence that no grad would find any fault in a classmate pursuing his pro sports dream, whether via a deferred commitment...the recruiter angle (see David Robinson)....or even a lesser obligation. Grads look at their service commitment as an opportunity...similar to the opportunity to play pro sports....or ultimately as the honor it is to serve one's country.

And concerning the AF Times article on reserve commissions, that has been a cyclic phenomenon following the Vietnam War, Iraq War, and now Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan conflict)....when the need for officers simply isn't there. Having said that, I don't believe the Service Academies have ever offered Reserve commissions (beyond singular cases), nor National Guard commissions, even under these circumstances. I also believe the Army and AF will draw down the most, whereas the Navy number are seen somewhat differently, in that there are "X" number of ships/submarines/aircraft that have to be manned...as well as treaty agreements that mandate the constant presence of those Forces in certain "hotspots" around the world.

 

[RunAmok]

I think if you take this a step further, if I were elected king, I would declare that any school that takes in an athlete on scholarship owes that athlete an education. So, if Student X is on scholarship and plays at least 5 semesters, then that school is required to allow the student to come back for up to say 10 years and complete the rest of his education.

It would reduce the current charade where student/athletes have to take a full load of classes and they wind up taking joke ones or they kick the can down the line. They run out of eligibility long before they have enough credits to graduate. And if you have a student who has a chance to go pro (most careers are only 2-3 years anyway) they can still come back and complete their degree.

 

[primetime]

Having said that, I don't believe the Service Academies have ever offered Reserve commissions (beyond singular cases), nor National Guard commissions, even under these circumstances. I also believe the Army and AF will draw down the most, whereas the Navy number are seen somewhat differently, in that there are "X" number of ships/submarines/aircraft that have to be manned...as well as treaty agreements that mandate the constant presence of those Forces in certain "hotspots" around the world.

Yeah, that was more or less my point - ROTC at least in certain services offers reserve commissions, there's no reason that Cardona's situation should be seen as singular, or dishonorable for that matter. Of course, 99% of the posters on this board (including - maybe especially - the veterans) are all on board with that anyways.