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Canader's Health Care System in Crisis Mode

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsWickedPissah, Feb 27, 2006.

  1. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/26/international/americas/26canada.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

    Read this account of Hillary's dream (outlawed private expenditure for health care) turned into a nightmare for Canadians in timely need of medical care...

    The country's publicly financed health insurance system — frequently described as the third rail of its political system and a core value of its national identity — is gradually breaking down. Private clinics are opening around the country by an estimated one a week, and private insurance companies are about to find a gold mine.

    Canada remains the only industrialized country that outlaws privately financed purchases of core medical services. Prime Minister Stephen Harper and other politicians remain reluctant to openly propose sweeping changes even though costs for the national and provincial governments are exploding and some cancer patients are waiting months for diagnostic tests and treatment.

    But a Supreme Court ruling last June — it found that a Quebec provincial ban on private health insurance was unconstitutional when patients were suffering and even dying on waiting lists — appears to have become a turning point for the entire country.

    Canadian leaders continue to reject the largely market-driven American system, with its powerful private insurance companies and 40 million people left uninsured, as they look to European mixed public-private health insurance and delivery systems.
    "In a free and democratic society where you can spend money on gambling and alcohol and tobacco," Dr. Day said, "the state has no business preventing you and me from spending our own money on health care."
  2. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    Nice to see you are showing your support for a guy that idolizes Fidel Castro. ;) I'm also glad our health care system doesn't have any problems. :cool:

    Interesting read. Nothing wrong with privatized health care. The problem lies in the profit motive behind illness and treating the symptoms not the causes as we do in the states. Canada fights the causes first, which saves them alot of money down the road. Until we adopt that approach, and limit the legalized price gouging of Pharma, we will never make health care affordable here.
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I suppose to the Republican way of thinking, it's better to have 20% of your population without health insurance than to have a system that has some serious shortcomings. Hillary's plan was not like the Canadian, in that Hillary's plan was based on competition between HMOs. I never heard that Hillary's plan would "outlaw private expenditure for health care," and I suspect Pissah is spreading misinformation because that seems absurd (but anything is possible). Do you have a link, Pissah?

    Secondly, the Canadians are smarter than us because they're looking to the European models in which everyone is insured, but in most cases you or your employer can buy supplemental health insurance. By some measures, we are not considered a leading nation in terms of heath care:

    http://www.brookings.edu/fp/cusf/analysis/dutton.htm

    "Nonetheless, a World Health Organization report published in 2001 found that France has the best overall health care system among the 191 countries surveyed while the U.S. ranked 37th behind virtually all European countries as well as Morocco, Oman, and Costa Rica. Several factors explain the differences in the rankings of France and the United States. The most prominent factor was the large number of Americans whose access to care is limited because of their lack of health insurance—estimates range between 39 and 43 million. Despite this lack of coverage, America still spends far and away the most on its health care system at 13.7% of GDP while France spends 9.8%, placing it in the fourth position."
  4. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Total proof that you knee-jerk ideologs are totally consumed with party politics and cannot consider the independent situation of a policy in crisis. I could care less that that particular health care advocate's personal politics supported Fidel. His actions support freedom of choice, something liberal ideologs only allow in killing the unborn, not in any other arenas such as health care choice for families, spending family earnings or in educational free choice options for children.
  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I guess you expect 100% health care for everyone. Well, we would all like to live in mansions and drive Ferraris too but it's not happening. Where is our birthright to medical care ? Within reason I support medical care for kids as problems they have aren't of their own doing. And, again within reason, I support some kind of basic care (no elective surgery) for anyone who legitimitely works 40+ hours a week. But it you're just sitting at home, don't come crying to me about your health care. And don't come looking for tummy tucs or Viagra either.
  6. Chevy

    Chevy Rookie

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    Welcome to reality ... We Are Not Europe. We Do Not Want To Be Europe. Europe Is Socialist. Socialism Is Anti-American.

    I tried to keep it as simple as I could.
  7. BlueTalon

    BlueTalon Rookie

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    I suppose to the liberal way of thinking, it's better to have universal government-run crappy health care than to make needed changes in the best health care system in the world.
  8. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve Rookie

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    Ooh, my turn to try!
    We don't want to be Socialist. We have become too Socialist already. The social engineers dont ever learn that the government could never ever deliver service efficiently.
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    For people like Shirtsleeve and Chevy, it's all about political labels, not political goals. I think we need to provide health care to kids, and should provide it to those who can't afford it, at least those who work or who have disabilities. Don't get stuck in 1950s red scare mode, using labels as arguments.

    BlueTalon, I don't favor crappy health care. You favor it, at least for poor people. Also, our health care system is not the best in the world if you use longevity as a measure. France is considered to have the best health plan, and many wealthy people go to France, not the United States, for treatment.

    BlueTalon, stop buying the myths the right wing has fed you. The only way to make our nation even better is to try to understand how it can be better.
  10. Chevy

    Chevy Rookie

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    Patters,

    I agreee. The kid always seems to pay the price. So, in that vein, I propose that while the state takes care of the kid, the state also does something about the selfish and uncaring idiots that brought the child in the world in the first place. If it were up to me- vasectomies all around! Thursday night is Ladies Night - Tubal Ligations with every order!
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think you raise an important issue. We all agree that our problems come mostly from adults, not kids. The problem is, once a person reaches adulthood, we have no expectations from them other than to stay within the law. Maybe there should be mandatory parenting programs in order to get free health care. I think a lot of the poor who people like you object to are terribly ignorant of how to conduct themselves in society and even within their family. If we could get these people into programs where they learned what most of us already take for granted, it might be a small step in the right direction. Adult ed, in other words, may be a key part of the solution that is talked about too seldom.
  12. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The problem with free health care is on display in the US military. They don't get or atleast keep the best doctors because the doctors can make a lot more money in the civilian world. I am not saying that all the military doctors are bad doctors but they do loose the majority of their best. So you get health care not quite up to par with the civilian world and then to top it off you rarely see a doctor when you go to the clinic or hospital, it is usually a Physicians assistant.

    You also have the availibility issue, it takes up to a month in many cases to get an appointment. Because people go to the doctor for any little problem, then combine that with the lack of resources and the retirees and you have a serious supply vs demand problem. Now that I am a civilian my wife can be seen on the same day she makes the appointment if neccassary. That would never happen in the military unless she went to the ER or the acute clinic care which is usually full of sick people. So it can take hours to be seen. Hell it got to the point where sick call is by appointment.

    Health care is obviously a problem and something needs to be done, but free healthcare is not the way to go. The poor have medicaid and if they don't that is their own fault for not going down to the welfare office and signing up. The folks who choose not to work or who work under the table made that choice willingly, regardless of your skill set McDonald's is always hiring and they have benefits.

    The people I feel most for are the working class that are just above poverty and just below the affordibility level and even them my sympathy for them is very limited because they can help themselves by going to school of some sort that will give them training which would lead to better career opportunities.

    If you really want to help out alot of the uninsured working class then you should support the small business health plan initiative. It allows small businesses to group together nationwide to increase their group size giving them the same rates as major corporations and possibly even better rates. But the Senate doesn't think it such a hot idea. Here is where it stands today!

    109th Congress
    House Passage -- July 26, 2005
    The House of Representatives passed H.R. 525 263-165, a strong bipartisan vote for affordable health-care for small businesses and working families. This vote marks the eighth time that the House has passed SBHPs, though the bill has yet to gain Senate approval.

    So now you can see how big of an issue this truly is to the Senate.
  13. BlueTalon

    BlueTalon Rookie

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    The quest for understanding is not advanced when you speak in bumper stickers and make silly accusations. I don't buy right wing myths any more than you buy left wing myths.

    And I'll take our health care system over France's any day.
  14. BlueTalon

    BlueTalon Rookie

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    Oh, AMEN!!!

    When I want to scare people as we're waiting in the Air Force clinic, I tell people to thank God that Hillary didn't get her way a decade or so ago, because if she did, the entire nation's health care system would look like Tricare (the military system, for those who don't know what Tricare is). That usually gets a cringe or a long, slowly exhaled "whew".
  15. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    For millions of uninsured, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest they would probably rather have Tricare than Nocare. Instead, these people end up abusing the emergency room system and hospitals take it on the chin.
  16. BlueTalon

    BlueTalon Rookie

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    Just for the record here (I've said this elsewhere), I'm not against making changes in our health care system. It needs some changes. But the type of changes represented in a system like Canada's is not what is needed in this country.
  17. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    With almost the entire free world having some form of national health insurance, why not take the best solutions of each and apply them here?
  18. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with the 1st part but maybe just maybe Canada's reform might just produce solutions worth considering. I have nothing against stealing any good ideas from Europe, enhanced (possibly) by Canada. AAB has a point. Our system is all about big insurance companies, not people. I don't see 'single payer' or 'entitled free healthcare' as solutions but this time I'm just like a Democrat, I see the problem but have no viable answers.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2006
  19. PatsFanInEaglesLand

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    #37 Jersey

    Get lawyers out of the healthcare industry and watch co-pays & premiums go down.
  20. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    While we can't get them out, and killing them would be wrong, we CAN reduce their cost impact on healthcare by limiting awards to the ultra-rich John Edwards vampires. Most folks know obstetricians who had to leave because of the unreal malpractise premiums. Over $50K/year. Lawyers have blamed every birth problem on malpractise. Sometmes bad stuff just happens.

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